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JonathanMilbank
Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 384
Location: Aberdeen area
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 Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:29 pm Post subject: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? |
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We in the UK are faced with the prospect of ethanol content in fuel being raised in September from 5% to 10%. About 10 or so years ago (or was it longer?) this whole subject got debated to death, with the LAA Light Aircraft Association taking the position that we should always check each fuel batch for ethanol before pouring it into our fuel tanks. The test using a glass test tube with about 1" of water in the bottom, noting its level, then adding about 4 X as much fuel before shaking well and allowing to settle to see if the water level had apparently risen, was not particularly accurate and I never saw the water level rise.
The LAA's understandable position then was "If you find evidence of ethanol in fuel, then don't use it!" This position is very unlikely to change, which will mean that Rotax engines should either use avgas or UL91. For those of us living in god-forsaken northern latitudes, neither of these fuels are available and it would be economically prohibitive to either import them to our remote airfields or to fly to the nearest large airport to refuel, while simultaneously incurring landing fees and handling charges of £200!
Obviously (at least to me) Europas should cope with 10% ethanol in fuel, because I believe that at least one, maybe more Europas in Brazil were using fuel with ethanol having well in excess of 20%. Seemingly our "plastic" fuel tanks, automotive fuel lines and carburettors are unfazed by ethanol.
I'm also given to understand that while super unleaded fuel in much of England contains no ethanol, in northern England and most of Scotland it contains 5%. This raises the question of whether super unleaded "oop north" will continue with only 5% from September onwards.
Please correct me if I'm wrong about Brazil and let me know whether ethanol is believed to be to blame for any fuel tank failures in Europas. Needless to add, but I will nonetheless, I'm aware of the other risks associated with ethanol, such as carburettor icing and corrosion of some metals.
Thank you in anticipation of your replies.
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Last edited by JonathanMilbank on Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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SteveIvell(at)pestproof.c
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:49 pm Post subject: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? |
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Hi Jonathan
The Rotax engine is fine with ethanol, as you mention in Brazil. The engine is designed for mogas and really doesn't like Avgas.
My feeling is that the LAA are living in the past and if it's not Avgas it's no good!! Well it's time to smell the coffee and get used to the here and now. 10% ethanol is coming and I'll be using it.
It might mean changing the rubber more often but that's still much more affordable than having to use Avgas.
Obviously just my humble opinion.
Cheers
Steve
GSTES
XS Trigear 912s..... nearly finished!!
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of JonathanMilbank <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, 18 March 2021, 21:35
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil?
--> Europa-List message posted by: "JonathanMilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk>
We in the UK are faced with the prospect of ethanol content in fuel being raised in September from 5% to 10%. About 10 or so years ago (or was it longer?) this whole subject got debated to death, with the LAA Light Aircraft Association taking the position that we should always check each fuel batch for ethanol before pouring it into our fuel tanks. The test using a glass test tube with about 1" of water in the bottom, noting its level, then adding about 4 X as much fuel before shaking well and allowing to settle to see if the water level had apparently risen, was not particularly accurate and I never saw the water level rise.
The LAA's understandable position then was "If you find evidence of ethanol in fuel, then don't use it!" This position is very unlikely to change, which will mean that Rotax engines should either use avgas or UL91. For those of us living in god-forsaken northern latitudes, neither of these fuels are available and it would be economically prohibitive to either import them to our remote airfields or to fly to the nearest large airport to refuel, while simultaneously incurring landing fees and handling charges of £200!
Obviously (at least to me) Europas should cope with 10% ethanol in fuel, because I believe that at least one, maybe more Europas in Brazil were using fuel with ethanol having well in ecxess of 20%. Seemingly our "plastic" fuel tanks, automotive fuel lines and carburettors are unfased by ethanol.
Please correct me if I'm wrong about Brazil and let me know whether ethanol is to blame for any fuel tank failures in Europas. Thank you.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501000#501000
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:16 pm Post subject: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? |
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Ethanol (+ humidity) makes a mess of aluminum float bowls and jets etc...... I've rebuilt many a mower with such damage, and the bings are of the same materials fwiw.
Here is a good paper listing many an issue from a while ago:
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1757-899X/370/1/012009/pdf
Cheers,
Pete
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 6:01 PM Steve Ivell <SteveIvell(at)pestproof.co.uk (SteveIvell(at)pestproof.co.uk)> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Jonathan
The Rotax engine is fine with ethanol, as you mention in Brazil. The engine is designed for mogas and really doesn't like Avgas.
My feeling is that the LAA are living in the past and if it's not Avgas it's no good!! Well it's time to smell the coffee and get used to the here and now. 10% ethanol is coming and I'll be using it.
It might mean changing the rubber more often but that's still much more affordable than having to use Avgas.
Obviously just my humble opinion.
Cheers
Steve
GSTES
XS Trigear 912s..... nearly finished!!
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)> on behalf of JonathanMilbank <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>
Sent: Thursday, 18 March 2021, 21:35
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil?
--> Europa-List message posted by: "JonathanMilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>
We in the UK are faced with the prospect of ethanol content in fuel being raised in September from 5% to 10%. About 10 or so years ago (or was it longer?) this whole subject got debated to death, with the LAA Light Aircraft Association taking the position that we should always check each fuel batch for ethanol before pouring it into our fuel tanks. The test using a glass test tube with about 1" of water in the bottom, noting its level, then adding about 4 X as much fuel before shaking well and allowing to settle to see if the water level had apparently risen, was not particularly accurate and I never saw the water level rise.
The LAA's understandable position then was "If you find evidence of ethanol in fuel, then don't use it!" This position is very unlikely to change, which will mean that Rotax engines should either use avgas or UL91. For those of us living in god-forsaken northern latitudes, neither of these fuels are available and it would be economically prohibitive to either import them to our remote airfields or to fly to the nearest large airport to refuel, while simultaneously incurring landing fees and handling charges of £200!
Obviously (at least to me) Europas should cope with 10% ethanol in fuel, because I believe that at least one, maybe more Europas in Brazil were using fuel with ethanol having well in ecxess of 20%. Seemingly our "plastic" fuel tanks, automotive fuel lines and carburettors are unfased by ethanol.
Please correct me if I'm wrong about Brazil and let me know whether ethanol is to blame for any fuel tank failures in Europas. Thank you.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501000#501000
===========
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pa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
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ums.matronics.com
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p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
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brian.davies44(at)gmail.c
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:33 am Post subject: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? |
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Hi Steve,
I can assure you that the LAA are not living in the past on this subject. When 5% Ethanol was introduced into Mogas the UK CAA effectively banned its use. The LAA worked hard to get this reversed and eventually the CAA agreed that the LAA could determine which aircraft and/or engine types could use Mogas with 5% Ethanol. Although the Rotax is cleared for fuel with some Ethanol the aircraft fuel system may not be. Most of the problems we have experienced have been related to fuel tanks and fuel pipes and poor operating practices, such as leaving stale fuel in the system. The introduction of 10% Ethanol will require a re-think. In the meantime, avoid using it as long as there are good alternatives such as UL91 or premium grade Mogas without Ethanol.
A question for you before you finish your aircraft- what specification fuel lines have you installed? Are they Ethanol proof? The stuff Europa originally supplied is resistant but not proof because we did not have Ethanol in fuel when it was originally specified.
Regards
Brian Davies
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Steve Ivell
Sent: 18 March 2021 22:49
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil?
Hi Jonathan
The Rotax engine is fine with ethanol, as you mention in Brazil. The engine is designed for mogas and really doesn't like Avgas.
My feeling is that the LAA are living in the past and if it's not Avgas it's no good!! Well it's time to smell the coffee and get used to the here and now. 10% ethanol is coming and I'll be using it.
It might mean changing the rubber more often but that's still much more affordable than having to use Avgas.
Obviously just my humble opinion.
Cheers
Steve
GSTES
XS Trigear 912s..... nearly finished!!
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)> on behalf of JonathanMilbank <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>
Sent: Thursday, 18 March 2021, 21:35
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil?
--> Europa-List message posted by: "JonathanMilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>
We in the UK are faced with the prospect of ethanol content in fuel being raised in September from 5% to 10%. About 10 or so years ago (or was it longer?) this whole subject got debated to death, with the LAA Light Aircraft Association taking the position that we should always check each fuel batch for ethanol before pouring it into our fuel tanks. The test using a glass test tube with about 1" of water in the bottom, noting its level, then adding about 4 X as much fuel before shaking well and allowing to settle to see if the water level had apparently risen, was not particularly accurate and I never saw the water level rise.
The LAA's understandable position then was "If you find evidence of ethanol in fuel, then don't use it!" This position is very unlikely to change, which will mean that Rotax engines should either use avgas or UL91. For those of us living in god-forsaken northern latitudes, neither of these fuels are available and it would be economically prohibitive to either import them to our remote airfields or to fly to the nearest large airport to refuel, while simultaneously incurring landing fees and handling charges of £200!
Obviously (at least to me) Europas should cope with 10% ethanol in fuel, because I believe that at least one, maybe more Europas in Brazil were using fuel with ethanol having well in ecxess of 20%. Seemingly our "plastic" fuel tanks, automotive fuel lines and carburettors are unfased by ethanol.
Please correct me if I'm wrong about Brazil and let me know whether ethanol is to blame for any fuel tank failures in Europas. Thank you.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501000#501000
===========
st Email Forum -
pa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
===========
p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
ums.matronics.com
===========
p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
matronics.com
===========
p; - List Contribution Web Site -
p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
 Virus-free. www.avast.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]
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budyerly@msn.com
Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 281
Location: Florida USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:49 am Post subject: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? |
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Brian, Pete and Steve,
A number of us have written on Ethanol in the past and have first hand experience like Brian and Pete. Attached is my first client info article from 2012.
To add a bit and not to upset anyone:
Ethanol up to 10%, that is fresh and less than three weeks old in an aircraft where the octane is above 92 (US 92 RON, AKI 91, or European Super+ Roz95) can be run in the Rotax 912S and 914 safely. The 80 HP Rotax 912 as Creighton Smith would say can run on cat pee but he uses at least normal 87 car gas or better. Note that your local gas station normally has no clue of how long the gas has sat in their tanks so go to a station that has high volume sales is one way to reasonably be casually assured of your fuel quality.
After three weeks the ethanol MoGas octane begins to drop and gathers water from the humidity when not in a sealed container. This water absorption/sediment causes corrosion in aluminum components and after 6 weeks a nasty growth starts in stagnant fuel tanks open to the air which can cause gascolators and filters to clog.
WARNING: Detonation is highly possible in the 912ULS and 914 if run on improper octane content. The pilot cannot hear detonation in the Rotax normally and a cruise propeller setting on takeoff at full power with improper octane fuel can lug the engine down sufficiently to cause detonation which will lead to rapid loss of compression, valve and piston damage, and eventual loss of the engine. Unlike your auto engine, the Rotax does not have a knock sensor to retard spark and prevent extended detonation.
Specifically for the Europa:
1. The fuel lines sold as aircraft and marine use should not be used unless specifically designated ethanol safe as they harden and begin to permeate fuel vapor.
2. Use R-9 or better (EPA rated ethanol safe fuel hose) that is lined only. Not only for the smell and vapor but for seepage also.
3. Piersburg pumps are fine up to about 5 years then it is prudent to check fuel pressure output as internal plastic/rubber components become brittle.
4. Gascolators, fuel selector and fuel drain rubber components are not routinely ethanol safe. The O rings need to be Viton or similar to hold up to ethanol or change them at least every two years.
5. The Europa fuel tank material is PTFE and should be fine for use with ethanol. (Much has been complained about with leaving the tank full or empty. I keep mine full.)
6. The fuel boss pickup coarse screen assembly uses Redux epoxy and this epoxy will fail over time with ethanol. It appears to work for about 3-5 years then begins to break down.
7. Pro seal (a fuel sealant) will begin to soften and the outer layer begins to get very soft and slimy, but I have seen no serious breakdown on less than 10%. But the manufacturer does not guarantee it. Newer E85 fuel safe sealants have come on line but I have not tried them. Parker has a V1100 and 1200 series fluorocarbon substance that has been tested in autos as a sealant but not aircraft.
8. The fuel filler rubber elbow should be replaced as it will harden and crack with ethanol over time. Plus, the fuel smell permeates the rubber hose. Nasty.
9. Sight gauge clear lines made from certain PVCs tend to discolor and become cloudy with ethanol. But some dont, so one must experiment over time.
10. Any carbureted engine floats, gaskets and bowls must be inspected religiously (25 hours is what I use) for deterioration from corrosion and float buoyancy issues with ethanol.
11. MoGas with 10% ethanol as used delivers fewer BTUs and therefore less horsepower even when fresh. In the Rotax powered Europa you will not notice much of a difference until doing flight testing. The difference is minor but noticeable. Especially on cold starts, and long climbs is where I have personally seen the difference.
Some References: https://www.customflightcreations.com/techniques-articles-and-build-information/, Lockwood Aviation, LAA, EAA and FAA websites for many articles and information. Or just Google Ethanol use in aircraft and answer your own questions as there are many articles.
If you want to just jump in the plane after letting it set for a few weeks and fire the beast up and go fly, AvGas with the lead suspension additive (TCP) may be more to your liking.
If you fly only about 25 hours a year locally and fly only one or two longer cross countries a year, your scheduled maintenance between a 25 hour oil change and the normal annual oil change, plus more frequent O ring changing and the like, isnt much of a difference cost wise using MoGas or AvGas.
In 20 years of advising on, experimenting, building and flying the Europa I have found that fuel is one of the cheapest things we put into our aircraft. Yes, we use quite a bit of it, but I have found our Rotax experts like Phil Lockwood note there is a cost to everything. MoGas is cheaper at the pump and oil changes are longer but, on an average, it is about $20 a flight cheaper to use MoGas over the short term. If using fresh MoGas to fly and then draining it out into the car if it has sat in the tanks for three weeks or longer because your plane only flies once a month, you have to see what meets your comfort level. If time is valuable and the tediousness of changing O rings and pumps more often and pumping out old fuel doesnt bother you as much as your flying fuel bill, that is up to you and your personal flying. You may be the guy that drains his stagnant aircraft tank into the car on Friday night, then on Saturday jumps into the car, pulls your Europa out of the garage, stops at the filling station for a fresh fill and trucks on to the flying field for a morning flight. Or you may be the guy who leaves his plane outside with a cover at the field and then goes through the trials of a quick flight. Perhaps you are the guy that has your plane in the hangar fueled with AvGas and simply pulls it out and fires it up. As my old friend Walter Hudson used to say: You know what keeps an airplane flying? Money! How you spend it is up to you.
We all have our reasons for doing what we do. Choose wisely. An airplane is 20,000 compromises flying in formation. Change one thing and it affects 20 others. Some of us may be old and outdated (LAA/FAA/or us old farts), but if it works dont screw with it. Reinventing or experimenting with aircraft is costly so look hard at how you want to spend your time and money
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:29 am Post subject: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? |
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Well stated Bud! You covered all the bases. (Filed for future reference  )
Cheers,
Pete
| Quote: | On Mar 19, 2021, at 11:22 AM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> Clean Clean DocumentEmail false false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 <![endif]--> <![endif]-->/* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Brian, Pete and Steve,
A number of us have written on Ethanol in the past and have first hand experience like Brian and Pete. Attached is my first client info article from 2012.
To add a bit and not to upset anyone:
Ethanol up to 10%, that is fresh and less than three weeks old in an aircraft where the octane is above 92 (US 92 RON, AKI 91, or European Super+ Roz95) can be run in the Rotax 912S and 914 safely. The 80 HP Rotax 912 as Creighton Smith would say can run on cat pee but he uses at least normal 87 car gas or better. Note that your local gas station normally has no clue of how long the gas has sat in their tanks so go to a station that has high volume sales is one way to reasonably be casually assured of your fuel quality.
After three weeks the ethanol MoGas octane begins to drop and gathers water from the humidity when not in a sealed container. This water absorption/sediment causes corrosion in aluminum components and after 6 weeks a nasty growth starts in stagnant fuel tanks open to the air which can cause gascolators and filters to clog.
WARNING: Detonation is highly possible in the 912ULS and 914 if run on improper octane content. The pilot cannot hear detonation in the Rotax normally and a cruise propeller setting on takeoff at full power with improper octane fuel can lug the engine down sufficiently to cause detonation which will lead to rapid loss of compression, valve and piston damage, and eventual loss of the engine. Unlike your auto engine, the Rotax does not have a knock sensor to retard spark and prevent extended detonation.
Specifically for the Europa: - The fuel lines sold as aircraft and marine use should not be used unless specifically designated ethanol safe as they harden and begin to permeate fuel vapor.
- Use R-9 or better (EPA rated ethanol safe fuel hose) that is lined only. Not only for the smell and vapor but for seepage also.
- Piersburg pumps are fine up to about 5 years then it is prudent to check fuel pressure output as internal plastic/rubber components become brittle.
- Gascolators, fuel selector and fuel drain rubber components are not routinely ethanol safe. The O rings need to be Viton or similar to hold up to ethanol or change them at least every two years.
- The Europa fuel tank material is PTFE and should be fine for use with ethanol. (Much has been complained about with leaving the tank full or empty. I keep mine full.)
- The fuel boss pickup coarse screen assembly uses Redux epoxy and this epoxy will fail over time with ethanol. It appears to work for about 3-5 years then begins to break down.
- Pro seal (a fuel sealant) will begin to soften and the outer layer begins to get very soft and slimy, but I have seen no serious breakdown on less than 10%. But the manufacturer does not guarantee it. Newer E85 fuel safe sealants have come on line but I have not tried them. Parker has a V1100 and 1200 series fluorocarbon substance that has been tested in autos as a sealant but not aircraft.
- The fuel filler rubber elbow should be replaced as it will harden and crack with ethanol over time. Plus, the fuel smell permeates the rubber hose. Nasty.
- Sight gauge clear lines made from certain PVCs tend to discolor and become cloudy with ethanol. But some don’t, so one must experiment over time.
- Any carbureted engine floats, gaskets and bowls must be inspected religiously (25 hours is what I use) for deterioration from corrosion and float buoyancy issues with ethanol.
- MoGas with 10% ethanol as used delivers fewer BTUs and therefore less horsepower even when fresh. In the Rotax powered Europa you will not notice much of a difference until doing flight testing. The difference is minor but noticeable. Especially on cold starts, and long climbs is where I have personally seen the difference.
Some References: https://www.customflightcreations.com/techniques-articles-and-build-information/, Lockwood Aviation, LAA, EAA and FAA websites for many articles and information. Or just Google “Ethanol use in aircraft” and answer your own questions as there are many articles.
If you want to just jump in the plane after letting it set for a few weeks and fire the beast up and go fly, AvGas with the lead suspension additive (TCP) may be more to your liking.
If you fly only about 25 hours a year locally and fly only one or two longer cross countries a year, your scheduled maintenance between a 25 hour oil change and the normal annual oil change, plus more frequent O ring changing and the like, isn’t much of a difference cost wise using MoGas or AvGas.
In 20 years of advising on, experimenting, building and flying the Europa I have found that fuel is one of the cheapest things we put into our aircraft. Yes, we use quite a bit of it, but I have found our Rotax experts like Phil Lockwood note there is a cost to everything. MoGas is cheaper at the pump and oil changes are longer but, on an average, it is about $20 a flight cheaper to use MoGas over the short term. If using fresh MoGas to fly and then draining it out into the car if it has sat in the tanks for three weeks or longer because your plane only flies once a month, you have to see what meets your comfort level. If time is valuable and the tediousness of changing O rings and pumps more often and pumping out old fuel doesn’t bother you as much as your flying fuel bill, that is up to you and your personal flying. You may be the guy that drains his stagnant aircraft tank into the car on Friday night, then on Saturday jumps into the car, pulls your Europa out of the garage, stops at the filling station for a fresh fill and trucks on to the flying field for a morning flight. Or you may be the guy who leaves his plane outside with a cover at the field and then goes through the trials of a quick flight. Perhaps you are the guy that has your plane in the hangar fueled with AvGas and simply pulls it out and fires it up. As my old friend Walter Hudson used to say: You know what keeps an airplane flying? Money! How you spend it is up to you.
We all have our reasons for doing what we do. Choose wisely. An airplane is 20,000 compromises flying in formation. Change one thing and it affects 20 others. Some of us may be old and outdated (LAA/FAA/or us old farts), but if it works don’t screw with it. Reinventing or experimenting with aircraft is costly so look hard at how you want to spend your time and money.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Brian Davies
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2021 5:34 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil?
Hi Steve,
I can assure you that the LAA are not living in the past on this subject. When 5% Ethanol was introduced into Mogas the UK CAA effectively banned its use. The LAA worked hard to get this reversed and eventually the CAA agreed that the LAA could determine which aircraft and/or engine types could use Mogas with 5% Ethanol. Although the Rotax is cleared for fuel with some Ethanol the aircraft fuel system may not be. Most of the problems we have experienced have been related to fuel tanks and fuel pipes and poor operating practices, such as leaving stale fuel in the system. The introduction of 10% Ethanol will require a re-think. In the meantime, avoid using it as long as there are good alternatives such as UL91 or premium grade Mogas without Ethanol.
A question for you before you finish your aircraft- what specification fuel lines have you installed? Are they Ethanol proof? The stuff Europa originally supplied is resistant but not proof because we did not have Ethanol in fuel when it was originally specified.
Regards
Brian Davies
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)> On Behalf Of Steve Ivell
Sent: 18 March 2021 22:49
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil?
Hi Jonathan
The Rotax engine is fine with ethanol, as you mention in Brazil. The engine is designed for mogas and really doesn't like Avgas.
My feeling is that the LAA are living in the past and if it's not Avgas it's no good!! Well it's time to smell the coffee and get used to the here and now. 10% ethanol is coming and I'll be using it.
It might mean changing the rubber more often but that's still much more affordable than having to use Avgas.
Obviously just my humble opinion.
Cheers
Steve
GSTES
XS Trigear 912s..... nearly finished!!
[b]From:[/b] owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)> on behalf of JonathanMilbank <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>
[b]Sent:[/b] Thursday, 18 March 2021, 21:35
[b]To:[/b] europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
[b]Subject:[/b] Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil?
--> Europa-List message posted by: "JonathanMilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>
We in the UK are faced with the prospect of ethanol content in fuel being raised in September from 5% to 10%. About 10 or so years ago (or was it longer?) this whole subject got debated to death, with the LAA Light Aircraft Association taking the position that we should always check each fuel batch for ethanol before pouring it into our fuel tanks. The test using a glass test tube with about 1" of water in the bottom, noting its level, then adding about 4 X as much fuel before shaking well and allowing to settle to see if the water level had apparently risen, was not particularly accurate and I never saw the water level rise.
The LAA's understandable position then was "If you find evidence of ethanol in fuel, then don't use it!" This position is very unlikely to change, which will mean that Rotax engines should either use avgas or UL91. For those of us living in god-forsaken northern latitudes, neither of these fuels are available and it would be economically prohibitive to either import them to our remote airfields or to fly to the nearest large airport to refuel, while simultaneously incurring landing fees and handling charges of £200!
Obviously (at least to me) Europas should cope with 10% ethanol in fuel, because I believe that at least one, maybe more Europas in Brazil were using fuel with ethanol having well in ecxess of 20%. Seemingly our "plastic" fuel tanks, automotive fuel lines and carburettors are unfased by ethanol.
Please correct me if I'm wrong about Brazil and let me know whether ethanol is to blame for any fuel tank failures in Europas. Thank you.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501000#501000
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SteveIvell(at)pestproof.c
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:53 pm Post subject: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? |
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Hi Brian
The Rotax engine isn't the problem..... it's the engine ancillaries. So.... providing we use ethanol proof rubber components there shouldn't be too many problems. And I have.
The LAA saying we mustn't use fuel with any ethanol in it is unfair as the petrol stations don't even know if there is ethanol in their own fuel, and the engine doesn't really care.....it still works fine.
UL91 isn't readily available locally to me so why should I have to waste time and fuel flying to an airfield that has UK??
I'll be using mogas and taking appropriate precautions.
Kind Regards
Steve Ivell
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Brian Davies <brian.davies44(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2021 9:33:35 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil?
Hi Steve,
I can assure you that the LAA are not living in the past on this subject. When 5% Ethanol was introduced into Mogas the UK CAA effectively banned its use. The LAA worked hard to get this reversed and eventually the CAA agreed that the LAA could determine which aircraft and/or engine types could use Mogas with 5% Ethanol. Although the Rotax is cleared for fuel with some Ethanol the aircraft fuel system may not be. Most of the problems we have experienced have been related to fuel tanks and fuel pipes and poor operating practices, such as leaving stale fuel in the system. The introduction of 10% Ethanol will require a re-think. In the meantime, avoid using it as long as there are good alternatives such as UL91 or premium grade Mogas without Ethanol.
A question for you before you finish your aircraft- what specification fuel lines have you installed? Are they Ethanol proof? The stuff Europa originally supplied is resistant but not proof because we did not have Ethanol in fuel when it was originally specified.
Regards
Brian Davies
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Steve Ivell
Sent: 18 March 2021 22:49
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil?
Hi Jonathan
The Rotax engine is fine with ethanol, as you mention in Brazil. The engine is designed for mogas and really doesn't like Avgas.
My feeling is that the LAA are living in the past and if it's not Avgas it's no good!! Well it's time to smell the coffee and get used to the here and now. 10% ethanol is coming and I'll be using it.
It might mean changing the rubber more often but that's still much more affordable than having to use Avgas.
Obviously just my humble opinion.
Cheers
Steve
GSTES
XS Trigear 912s..... nearly finished!!
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)> on behalf of JonathanMilbank <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>
Sent: Thursday, 18 March 2021, 21:35
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil?
--> Europa-List message posted by: "JonathanMilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>
We in the UK are faced with the prospect of ethanol content in fuel being raised in September from 5% to 10%. About 10 or so years ago (or was it longer?) this whole subject got debated to death, with the LAA Light Aircraft Association taking the position that we should always check each fuel batch for ethanol before pouring it into our fuel tanks. The test using a glass test tube with about 1" of water in the bottom, noting its level, then adding about 4 X as much fuel before shaking well and allowing to settle to see if the water level had apparently risen, was not particularly accurate and I never saw the water level rise.
The LAA's understandable position then was "If you find evidence of ethanol in fuel, then don't use it!" This position is very unlikely to change, which will mean that Rotax engines should either use avgas or UL91. For those of us living in god-forsaken northern latitudes, neither of these fuels are available and it would be economically prohibitive to either import them to our remote airfields or to fly to the nearest large airport to refuel, while simultaneously incurring landing fees and handling charges of £200!
Obviously (at least to me) Europas should cope with 10% ethanol in fuel, because I believe that at least one, maybe more Europas in Brazil were using fuel with ethanol having well in ecxess of 20%. Seemingly our "plastic" fuel tanks, automotive fuel lines and carburettors are unfased by ethanol.
Please correct me if I'm wrong about Brazil and let me know whether ethanol is to blame for any fuel tank failures in Europas. Thank you.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501000#501000
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brian.davies44(at)gmail.c
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:30 am Post subject: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? |
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Hi Steve,
The LAA is not saying you must not use fuel with any ethanol. You can use Mogas to EN228. See LAA Technical Leaflet TL.2.26 Procedures for use of E5 Unleaded Mogas to EN228. Note that it talks about E5. The LAA has yet to issue advice regarding E10.
The point I was trying to make was that if you are worried about this you do not have to use Avgas. There other alternatives. Bud has provided good advice on this although fuel specs in the UK ( and the way octane ratings are quoted) is different.
Regards
Brian
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Steve Ivell
Sent: 20 March 2021 01:53
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil?
Hi Brian
The Rotax engine isn't the problem..... it's the engine ancillaries. So.... providing we use ethanol proof rubber components there shouldn't be too many problems. And I have.
The LAA saying we mustn't use fuel with any ethanol in it is unfair as the petrol stations don't even know if there is ethanol in their own fuel, and the engine doesn't really care.....it still works fine.
UL91 isn't readily available locally to me so why should I have to waste time and fuel flying to an airfield that has UK??
I'll be using mogas and taking appropriate precautions.
Kind Regards
Steve Ivell
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)> on behalf of Brian Davies <brian.davies44(at)gmail.com (brian.davies44(at)gmail.com)>
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2021 9:33:35 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) <europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: RE: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil?
Hi Steve,
I can assure you that the LAA are not living in the past on this subject. When 5% Ethanol was introduced into Mogas the UK CAA effectively banned its use. The LAA worked hard to get this reversed and eventually the CAA agreed that the LAA could determine which aircraft and/or engine types could use Mogas with 5% Ethanol. Although the Rotax is cleared for fuel with some Ethanol the aircraft fuel system may not be. Most of the problems we have experienced have been related to fuel tanks and fuel pipes and poor operating practices, such as leaving stale fuel in the system. The introduction of 10% Ethanol will require a re-think. In the meantime, avoid using it as long as there are good alternatives such as UL91 or premium grade Mogas without Ethanol.
A question for you before you finish your aircraft- what specification fuel lines have you installed? Are they Ethanol proof? The stuff Europa originally supplied is resistant but not proof because we did not have Ethanol in fuel when it was originally specified.
Regards
Brian Davies
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)> On Behalf Of Steve Ivell
Sent: 18 March 2021 22:49
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil?
Hi Jonathan
The Rotax engine is fine with ethanol, as you mention in Brazil. The engine is designed for mogas and really doesn't like Avgas.
My feeling is that the LAA are living in the past and if it's not Avgas it's no good!! Well it's time to smell the coffee and get used to the here and now. 10% ethanol is coming and I'll be using it.
It might mean changing the rubber more often but that's still much more affordable than having to use Avgas.
Obviously just my humble opinion.
Cheers
Steve
GSTES
XS Trigear 912s..... nearly finished!!
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)> on behalf of JonathanMilbank <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>
Sent: Thursday, 18 March 2021, 21:35
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil?
--> Europa-List message posted by: "JonathanMilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>
We in the UK are faced with the prospect of ethanol content in fuel being raised in September from 5% to 10%. About 10 or so years ago (or was it longer?) this whole subject got debated to death, with the LAA Light Aircraft Association taking the position that we should always check each fuel batch for ethanol before pouring it into our fuel tanks. The test using a glass test tube with about 1" of water in the bottom, noting its level, then adding about 4 X as much fuel before shaking well and allowing to settle to see if the water level had apparently risen, was not particularly accurate and I never saw the water level rise.
The LAA's understandable position then was "If you find evidence of ethanol in fuel, then don't use it!" This position is very unlikely to change, which will mean that Rotax engines should either use avgas or UL91. For those of us living in god-forsaken northern latitudes, neither of these fuels are available and it would be economically prohibitive to either import them to our remote airfields or to fly to the nearest large airport to refuel, while simultaneously incurring landing fees and handling charges of £200!
Obviously (at least to me) Europas should cope with 10% ethanol in fuel, because I believe that at least one, maybe more Europas in Brazil were using fuel with ethanol having well in ecxess of 20%. Seemingly our "plastic" fuel tanks, automotive fuel lines and carburettors are unfased by ethanol.
Please correct me if I'm wrong about Brazil and let me know whether ethanol is to blame for any fuel tank failures in Europas. Thank you.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501000#501000
===========
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kjburns(at)btinternet.com
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:09 am Post subject: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? |
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Jonathan,LAA TL2.26 issue 2 , 2017 is essential reading for the use of e5 mo gas.
Anyone doing rubber hose renewal should source hose approved to e5 specifications, ( usually stamped on hose ) from a reputable source.
Stagnation of old fuel is a very real issue and guidance is within document.
I’ve found it best to turn off fuel and run float bowls dry to stop engine ..
Then fresh fuel can be introduced via electric pump for engine start .
A Jumper pack for first start ensures full crank speed and avoids any kick back risk to the starting train .
I also swear by the soft start to retard ignition for starting .
http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/engineering/TechnicalLeaflets/Operating%20An%20Aircraft/TL%202.26%20Procedure%20for%20using%20E5%20Unleaded%20Mogas.pdf
I’m sure future increases in alcohol will need suitable hoses etc before approved for use .
Kevin .
Sent from my iPad
On 18 Mar 2021, at 22:49, Steve Ivell <SteveIvell(at)pestproof.co.uk (SteveIvell(at)pestproof.co.uk)> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Jonathan
The Rotax engine is fine with ethanol, as you mention in Brazil. The engine is designed for mogas and really doesn't like Avgas.
My feeling is that the LAA are living in the past and if it's not Avgas it's no good!! Well it's time to smell the coffee and get used to the here and now. 10% ethanol is coming and I'll be using it.
It might mean changing the rubber more often but that's still much more affordable than having to use Avgas.
Obviously just my humble opinion.
Cheers
Steve
GSTES
XS Trigear 912s..... nearly finished!!
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)> on behalf of JonathanMilbank <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>
Sent: Thursday, 18 March 2021, 21:35
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil?
--> Europa-List message posted by: "JonathanMilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>
We in the UK are faced with the prospect of ethanol content in fuel being raised in September from 5% to 10%. About 10 or so years ago (or was it longer?) this whole subject got debated to death, with the LAA Light Aircraft Association taking the position that we should always check each fuel batch for ethanol before pouring it into our fuel tanks. The test using a glass test tube with about 1" of water in the bottom, noting its level, then adding about 4 X as much fuel before shaking well and allowing to settle to see if the water level had apparently risen, was not particularly accurate and I never saw the water level rise.
The LAA's understandable position then was "If you find evidence of ethanol in fuel, then don't use it!" This position is very unlikely to change, which will mean that Rotax engines should either use avgas or UL91. For those of us living in god-forsaken northern latitudes, neither of these fuels are available and it would be economically prohibitive to either import them to our remote airfields or to fly to the nearest large airport to refuel, while simultaneously incurring landing fees and handling charges of £200!
Obviously (at least to me) Europas should cope with 10% ethanol in fuel, because I believe that at least one, maybe more Europas in Brazil were using fuel with ethanol having well in ecxess of 20%. Seemingly our "plastic" fuel tanks, automotive fuel lines and carburettors are unfased by ethanol.
Please correct me if I'm wrong about Brazil and let me know whether ethanol is to blame for any fuel tank failures in Europas. Thank you.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501000#501000
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p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
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===========
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