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Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire)

 
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kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:41 pm    Post subject: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) Reply with quote

For those who have been there and done it . . . . . .  Piano wire vs stranded
  • Did you replace the outer as well as the inner cables?
  • What thickness is the required inner piano wire?
  • Where do you obtain the piano wire?
  • Did you use the existing fittings on the ends of the cables inside the throttle box?  if so, how did you do the change over from the original stranded inner to the solid inner?

Any photos would be welcomed too please.

Thank you in anticipation
Kingsley in Oz


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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:38 am    Post subject: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) Reply with quote

Hi Kingsley,
Fwiw, my classic was using solids, in the original sheaths, and I found the friction to be very high and the action to be not smooth. The required bends were too tight and ultimately resulted in a solid wire break from fatigue (luckily it happened during run-up).
I decided to replace the solids and revert back to stranded using teflon-coated bicycle brake cable and love it. Very smooth, and zero risk of fast throttle action kinking. Im very happy that i changed back.
https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5023-566/1-5mm-Stainless-Steel-Teflon-Disc-Brake-Cable?colour=NOC02&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIiMj7qq356QIVgp6zCh0V3gjqEAQYAiABEgLEd_D_BwE
Cheers,
Pete

Quote:
On Jun 11, 2020, at 12:49 AM, Kingsley Hurst <kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au> wrote:

 For those who have been there and done it . . . . . . Piano wire vs stranded
  • Did you replace the outer as well as the inner cables?
  • What thickness is the required inner piano wire?
  • Where do you obtain the piano wire?
  • Did you use the existing fittings on the ends of the cables inside the throttle box? if so, how did you do the change over from the original stranded inner to the solid inner?

Any photos would be welcomed too please.

Thank you in anticipation
Kingsley in Oz





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Gilles



Joined: 16 May 2020
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:21 am    Post subject: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) Reply with quote

Le 11/06/2020 à 06:38, Kingsley Hurst a écrit :

Quote:
For those who have been there and done it . . . . . .  Piano wire vs stranded
  • Did you replace the outer as well as the inner cables?
  • What thickness is the required inner piano wire?
  • Where do you obtain the piano wire?
  • Did you use the existing fittings on the ends of the cables inside the throttle box?  if so, how did you do the change over from the original stranded inner to the solid inner?



Hi Kingsley,
Done it.
Did keep the original outer cases, will measure thickness next time we remove the cowling.
Some pictures of *our* setup

[img]cid:part1.6BD3C5DD.5C8F0767(at)free.fr[/img][img]cid:part2.D3A135A3.7A04F837(at)free.fr[/img]
Being the one who installed the cables and routing, I ensured gracious sweeps and easy swiveling at the lever junctions.

We never had any issue with the throttle cables in  15+ years, some degree of smooth friction make them "feel" like any type certificate aircraft.
And BTW, we never disconnected the piano wires from the lever arms and provided ferm stops on the throttle lever, so never had to re-synch the carbs.
http://contrails.free.fr/engine_rotax_stops.php

FWIW,
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr


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Gilles
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h&jeuropa



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 634

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) Reply with quote

We installed solid wire throttle cables during our initial build. We did it because there were a couple instances where pilots tried to add throttle quickly and the wire cables kinked in the throttle box and jammed.

We tried to purchase piano wire to fit in the Europa supplied cables but we were unable to straighten it so that it worked properly. We purchased complete cables from Aircraft Spruce and have never had a problem. We did have to devise fittings at each end. As Gilles points out, our carbs stay in sync from year to year too.

Jim & Heather


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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:09 pm    Post subject: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) Reply with quote

FWIW:
Understanding the reasoning behind the solid wire, I first replaced the broken solid (which by the way over-powered the carb’s throttle spring and stuck it at the 20% throttle level) with another. Examining the routing of the classic, the bends are too tight for solid wire, its friction too high, and inducing fatigue cracking of the solid wire. I sourced teflon-coated bicycle stranded cable, modified the ends appropriately, lubed them up with teflon spray and installed them. Repeated tests of slamming the throttle forward did not induce any kinking in the throttle box, as the stock rotax springs have adequate tension to pull consistently. I did however have to tighten the throttle box friction pivot to keep the throttle from creeping from the same spring tension.

Bottom line, at least in my Classic, which has unavoidable tight bends, the throttles are smooth as silk, and the balancing was easy and has remained constant in the 50 hours so far (knock on wood).

Just wanted to throw my experience out there fwiw. I’m just ecstatic that the solid wire broke on the ground (with a passenger) and I didn’t lose power in the climb.

Cheers and blue skies,
Pete
Quote:
On Jun 11, 2020, at 4:54 PM, h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net> wrote:



We installed solid wire throttle cables during our initial build. We did it because there were a couple instances where pilots tried to add throttle quickly and the wire cables kinked in the throttle box and jammed.

We tried to purchase piano wire to fit in the Europa supplied cables but we were unable to straighten it so that it worked properly. We purchased complete cables from Aircraft Spruce and have never had a problem. We did have to devise fittings at each end. As Gilles points out, our carbs stay in sync from year to year too.

Jim & Heather




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dave11allen(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:22 pm    Post subject: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) Reply with quote

I am interested to know how you made the adjustment to connect the cable at the throttle lever.

Dave

On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 22:13, Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)>

FWIW:
Understanding the reasoning behind the solid wire, I first replaced the broken solid (which by the way over-powered the carb’s throttle spring and stuck it at the 20% throttle level) with another.  Examining the routing of the classic, the bends are too tight for solid wire, its friction too high, and inducing fatigue cracking of the solid wire.  I sourced teflon-coated bicycle stranded cable, modified the ends appropriately, lubed them up with teflon spray and installed them.  Repeated tests of slamming the throttle forward did not induce any kinking in the throttle box, as the stock rotax springs have adequate tension to pull consistently.  I did however have to tighten the throttle box friction pivot to keep the throttle from creeping from the same spring tension.

Bottom line, at least in my Classic, which has unavoidable tight bends, the throttles are smooth as silk, and the balancing was easy and has remained constant in the 50 hours so far (knock on wood).

Just wanted to throw my experience out there fwiw.  I’m just ecstatic that the solid wire broke on the ground (with a passenger) and I didn’t lose power in the climb.

Cheers and blue skies,
Pete


> On Jun 11, 2020, at 4:54 PM, h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)> wrote:
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)>
>
> We installed solid wire throttle cables during our initial build. We did it because there were a couple instances where pilots tried to add throttle quickly and the wire cables kinked in the throttle box and jammed.
>
> We tried to purchase piano wire to fit in the Europa supplied cables but we were unable to straighten it so that it worked properly.  We purchased complete cables from Aircraft Spruce and have never had a problem.  We did have to devise fittings at each end.   As Gilles points out, our carbs stay in sync from year to year too.
>
> Jim & Heather
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496780#496780
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:41 pm    Post subject: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) Reply with quote

I wish I had taken picture now.
All I did was sand down the lead cable end and insert it into the re-used nicely made bushed (for the lever bolt), steel, allen-key locked fitting, adding copious amounts of loctite prior to inserting the cable end and tightening the small 4-40 allen-bolt to lock in the cable. Static tests showed that it was more than strong enough. I have not yet re-inspected it, but the throttle function is still perfect. If the end did fail, the carb would go open throttle, as airplanes should Smile
Cheers,
Pete

Quote:
On Jun 11, 2020, at 5:31 PM, Dave Allen <dave11allen(at)gmail.com> wrote:

I am interested to know how you made the adjustment to connect the cable at the throttle lever.

Dave

On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 22:13, Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)>

FWIW:
Understanding the reasoning behind the solid wire, I first replaced the broken solid (which by the way over-powered the carb’s throttle spring and stuck it at the 20% throttle level) with another. Examining the routing of the classic, the bends are too tight for solid wire, its friction too high, and inducing fatigue cracking of the solid wire. I sourced teflon-coated bicycle stranded cable, modified the ends appropriately, lubed them up with teflon spray and installed them. Repeated tests of slamming the throttle forward did not induce any kinking in the throttle box, as the stock rotax springs have adequate tension to pull consistently. I did however have to tighten the throttle box friction pivot to keep the throttle from creeping from the same spring tension.

Bottom line, at least in my Classic, which has unavoidable tight bends, the throttles are smooth as silk, and the balancing was easy and has remained constant in the 50 hours so far (knock on wood).

Just wanted to throw my experience out there fwiw. I’m just ecstatic that the solid wire broke on the ground (with a passenger) and I didn’t lose power in the climb.

Cheers and blue skies,
Pete


> On Jun 11, 2020, at 4:54 PM, h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)> wrote:
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)>
>
> We installed solid wire throttle cables during our initial build. We did it because there were a couple instances where pilots tried to add throttle quickly and the wire cables kinked in the throttle box and jammed.
>
> We tried to purchase piano wire to fit in the Europa supplied cables but we were unable to straighten it so that it worked properly. We purchased complete cables from Aircraft Spruce and have never had a problem. We did have to devise fittings at each end. As Gilles points out, our carbs stay in sync from year to year too.
>
> Jim & Heather
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496780#496780
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:53 am    Post subject: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) Reply with quote

Hello Pete and Gilles,

Thank you both for your input.  Since you both have opposing views, I'm
undecided at this moment what to do but will work out something soon.

Best regards
Kingsley


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:22 am    Post subject: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) Reply with quote

I assume that as long as all the radius’s are generous, then solid is fine as many have not reported any issues. On my classic, that was not possible, and my stranded also work perfectly fine (as per rotax typical install).

Cheers!

Quote:
On Jun 14, 2020, at 6:14 AM, Kingsley Hurst <kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au> wrote:



Hello Pete and Gilles,

Thank you both for your input. Since you both have opposing views, I'm undecided at this moment what to do but will work out something soon.

Best regards
Kingsley





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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:39 am    Post subject: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) Reply with quote

Kingsley, mate I hope you don't mind me saying but you are trying to fix something that isn't broken.  Smile  

I had great success by shortening my cables to a more appropriate length and over the years there  hasn't been a hint of an issue with kinking.

Cheers, Paul
On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 11:44 PM Kingsley Hurst <kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au (kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au)> wrote:

Quote:
For those who have been there and done it . . . . . .  Piano wire vs stranded
  • Did you replace the outer as well as the inner cables?
  • What thickness is the required inner piano wire?
  • Where do you obtain the piano wire?
  • Did you use the existing fittings on the ends of the cables inside the throttle box?  if so, how did you do the change over from the original stranded inner to the solid inner?

Any photos would be welcomed too please.

Thank you in anticipation
Kingsley in Oz





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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:05 am    Post subject: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) Reply with quote

.....ditto..... and i reverted my purchased classic back to smooth problem free stranded after the solid broke (!).
Smile

Quote:
On Jun 16, 2020, at 12:49 PM, Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Kingsley, mate I hope you don't mind me saying but you are trying to fix something that isn't broken. Smile

I had great success by shortening my cables to a more appropriate length and over the years there hasn't been a hint of an issue with kinking.

Cheers, Paul
On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 11:44 PM Kingsley Hurst <kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au (kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au)> wrote:

Quote:
For those who have been there and done it . . . . . . Piano wire vs stranded
  • Did you replace the outer as well as the inner cables?
  • What thickness is the required inner piano wire?
  • Where do you obtain the piano wire?
  • Did you use the existing fittings on the ends of the cables inside the throttle box? if so, how did you do the change over from the original stranded inner to the solid inner?

Any photos would be welcomed too please.

Thank you in anticipation
Kingsley in Oz







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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:31 am    Post subject: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) Reply with quote

Hello Paul.

My query about solid strand cable was just that . . . .  a query.  I
have never had an issue with kinking.  While my mate and I were working
on the carbs recently, we damaged a cable and I was only considering
replacment with the solid wire arrangement.

I have now purchased some Teflon lined bicycle brake cable with stranded
inners, am in the process of reusing the end fittings inside the
throttle housing and have practiced (on the old cable) cutting the inner
cable using the twist weld method referenced on the list recently by Ron
Parigoris.  I must say the twist weld method works brilliantly to stop
fraying and adds no thickness at all to the cable end making it a breeze
to insert in the clamps at the carby end.

Thank you for your concern Paul, much appreciated.

Best
Kingsley

On 16.06.20 6:33 am, Paul McAllister wrote:
Quote:
Kingsley, mate I hope you don't mind me saying but you are trying to
fix something that isn't broken.  Smile

I had great success by shortening my cables to a more appropriate
length and over the years there  hasn't been a hint of an issue with
kinking.

Cheers, Paul


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:14 pm    Post subject: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) Reply with quote

This is timely! My inspection of the throttle box discovered one of the cable connections was very frayed right at the TH03 throttle cable eye, hanging by threads!So I am looking at my options to stay with a similar install or going to solid wire. I imagine to stay “stock”I will need to order a new cable with the TH03 cable eye connected assuming they are available?
Other wise going Erich’s route, which allows me to order via aircraft spruce.
For those of you who haven’t inspected this for a while, might be worth a look.
Thanks for any further thoughts.
Jerry
Mono 914

Sent from my iPad

Quote:
On Jun 17, 2020, at 3:43 AM, Kingsley Hurst <kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au> wrote:

 Thank you Erich, you have answered the question I was most concerned about. Please see my reply to Paul McAllister.

Best regards
Kingsley

On 15.06.20 2:24 am, erichdtrombley(at)juno.com (erichdtrombley(at)juno.com) wrote:

Quote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Kingsley,

I used solid stainless steel Bowden wire, .078" diameter. As I did my own firewall forward I purchased bicycle cable, removed the twisted wire and inserted the solid Bowden wire. Regarding the connection to the throttle lever, I used AN111 Cable bushings as pictured below. Both items were purchased from Aircraft Spruce. Simply bend the end of the Bowden cable around the bushing forming a closed question mark (?) and secure it with Redux or JB Weld. Attach the cable to the throttle lever as per the Europa instructions. 17+ years of trouble free operation. Works a treat.

Regards,
Erich
N28ET Classic Mono 914

<image001.jpg>





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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:58 pm    Post subject: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) Reply with quote

Hello Jerry,

Do you stutter mate?  Just joking . . . . . your post came through seven
times on the list!

Since only one cable was frayed, I suspect the TH03 fitting was binding
on the sleeve on which it should pivot freely.  This would cause the
fitting to flex the cable at the end of the crimp as it appears it has
done.  I further imagine that in cold countries like yours that after a
winter lay-up, any grease on the fitting could become quite sticky and
may well be the culprit.

Best regards
Kingsley


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