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New role for the E-Bus?
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cluros(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:00 pm    Post subject: New role for the E-Bus? Reply with quote
Yes, anything less than 13.8 V gives a visual and audio alarm but that's only useful with the engine running.

Doesn't help when forgetting the master on and walking away from the aircraft to come back a couple days later with a dead battery.
On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 10:24 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 11:32 AM 4/6/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
I have the Nav lights on anytime the aircraft is electrically powered. Several
times it has saved me from walking away to come back to a dead battery.

 You don't have obnoxious notification of low volts?


  Bob . . .


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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:21 pm    Post subject: New role for the E-Bus? Reply with quote
At 12:29 PM 4/6/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
I'm not planning on an SS contactor, just wondering if that info
was factored into the decision of e-bus/no e-bus?

It's the LOAD ANALYSIS that drives such
decisions . . . it's among the first
documents to be created and evolved as
any new design hits the drawing boards.

Contactor loads will be cited for consideration
as the design process moves along.


Bob . . .

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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:22 pm    Post subject: New role for the E-Bus? Reply with quote
If your master is on, but the engine isn't running, Why isn't the LV alarm flashing?
On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 3:08 PM Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
Yes, anything less than 13.8 V gives a visual and audio alarm but that's only useful with the engine running.

Doesn't help when forgetting the master on and walking away from the aircraft to come back a couple days later with a dead battery.
On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 10:24 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 11:32 AM 4/6/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
I have the Nav lights on anytime the aircraft is electrically powered. Several
times it has saved me from walking away to come back to a dead battery.

 You don't have obnoxious notification of low volts?


  Bob . . .



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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:25 pm    Post subject: New role for the E-Bus? Reply with quote
At 02:57 PM 4/6/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
Yes, anything less than 13.8 V gives a visual and audio alarm but that's only useful with the engine running.
Doesn't help when forgetting the master on and walking away from the aircraft to come back a couple days later with a dead battery.

Yup. The LV warning light on B&C controllers
is active whether or not the engine is running.
Also, it's not difficult to add an appropriately
obnoxious stand-alone warning device.


Bob . . .

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:34 pm    Post subject: New role for the E-Bus? Reply with quote
It is flashing, inside the plane. Doesn't help outside the plane.

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020, 14:51 Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
If your master is on, but the engine isn't running, Why isn't the LV alarm flashing?
On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 3:08 PM Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
Yes, anything less than 13.8 V gives a visual and audio alarm but that's only useful with the engine running.

Doesn't help when forgetting the master on and walking away from the aircraft to come back a couple days later with a dead battery.
On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 10:24 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 11:32 AM 4/6/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
I have the Nav lights on anytime the aircraft is electrically powered. Several
times it has saved me from walking away to come back to a dead battery.

 You don't have obnoxious notification of low volts?


  Bob . . .




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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:35 pm    Post subject: New role for the E-Bus? Reply with quote
The problem with an obnoxious warning device is that it is obnoxious. I'm not about to add something that warns me that my clearance delivery switch is on since it will be on before almost every flight.

But if you have a circuit design for an obnoxious warning that only signals when my brain has forgotten something, I'll take it.
On Mon, Apr 6, 2020, 14:47 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 02:57 PM 4/6/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
Yes, anything less than 13.8 V gives a visual and audio alarm but that's only useful with the engine running.
Doesn't help when forgetting the master on and walking away from the aircraft to come back a couple days later with a dead battery.

  Yup. The LV warning light on B&C controllers
  is active whether or not the engine is running.
  Also, it's not difficult to add an appropriately
  obnoxious stand-alone warning device.


  Bob . . .


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JB Soar



Joined: 19 Apr 2019
Posts: 14
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:11 pm    Post subject: New role for the E-Bus? Reply with quote
You left the master switch on???  This is easy to do, in a cockpit with only one crewmember, as there is no valid challenge-response shutdown checklist like the ones used in crewed aircraft.  To (hopefully) ameliorate this possibility in my Yak 55M, I've installed a Davtron voltmeter.  The display is rather large.  It displays bus voltage, thus, any time the master switch is on, system voltage is displayed.  The cost of the meter is less than the inconvenience of a dead battery, and it weighs about as much as a pack of cigarettes...  I picked green, but other colors are available, and I believe it dims automatically...  ('Not a factor in a day-VFR aerobatic airplane.)  Dark cockpit=Master switch off.  

As an aside, read the fine print on the B&C voltage regulator.  The low volt light may NOT flash if one's battery is well-charged.  Bob, can you add to this?

John B

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 6:40 PM Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
The problem with an obnoxious warning device is that it is obnoxious. I'm not about to add something that warns me that my clearance delivery switch is on since it will be on before almost every flight.

But if you have a circuit design for an obnoxious warning that only signals when my brain has forgotten something, I'll take it.
On Mon, Apr 6, 2020, 14:47 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 02:57 PM 4/6/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
Yes, anything less than 13.8 V gives a visual and audio alarm but that's only useful with the engine running.
Doesn't help when forgetting the master on and walking away from the aircraft to come back a couple days later with a dead battery.

  Yup. The LV warning light on B&C controllers
  is active whether or not the engine is running.
  Also, it's not difficult to add an appropriately
  obnoxious stand-alone warning device.


  Bob . . .



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jluckey(at)pacbell.net
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:30 pm    Post subject: New role for the E-Bus? Reply with quote
FYI...

On the topic of low-power master relays as an alternative to traditional "tin-can" or solid-state relays,
Here is a Bosch relay with contacts rated 75A and the coil draws around 0.2 A, (instead of 0.7A or higher as with some "tin-can" relays). I'm using it for my master relay. It costs about $35.
Bosch part #: V23232-D0001-X001

Here an Amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0117FAGVO?tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1



On Monday, April 6, 2020, 04:52:27 PM PDT, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> wrote:




It is flashing, inside the plane. Doesn't help outside the plane.
On Mon, Apr 6, 2020, 14:51 Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
If your master is on, but the engine isn't running, Why isn't the LV alarm flashing?

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 3:08 PM Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Yes, anything less than 13.8 V gives a visual and audio alarm but that's only useful with the engine running.
Doesn't help when forgetting the master on and walking away from the aircraft to come back a couple days later with a dead battery.

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 10:24 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 11:32 AM 4/6/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
I have the Nav lights on anytime the aircraft is electrically powered. Several times it has saved me from walking away to come back to a dead battery.
You don't have obnoxious notification of low volts?
Bob . . .




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hilltopkid



Joined: 10 Jul 2016
Posts: 10
Location: Richmond, VA
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:45 pm    Post subject: New role for the E-Bus? Reply with quote
I solved the problem of leaving the master switch on years ago when I was in 4 Cessna flying club. I instituted a protocol of leaving the flashing beacon (tail strobe) on all the time. Much brighter than the nav lights. After that no one of the 50 or so members walked out with that flashing light so totally obvious after closing the hangar door and turning of the fluorescent lighting. Problem solved.
Dee
Quote:
On Apr 6, 2020, at 7:30 PM, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
It is flashing, inside the plane. Doesn't help outside the plane.
On Mon, Apr 6, 2020, 14:51 Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
If your master is on, but the engine isn't running, Why isn't the LV alarm flashing?

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 3:08 PM Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Yes, anything less than 13.8 V gives a visual and audio alarm but that's only useful with the engine running.
Doesn't help when forgetting the master on and walking away from the aircraft to come back a couple days later with a dead battery.

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 10:24 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 11:32 AM 4/6/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
I have the Nav lights on anytime the aircraft is electrically powered. Several times it has saved me from walking away to come back to a dead battery.
You don't have obnoxious notification of low volts?
Bob . . .






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DeWitt (Dee) Whittington
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:56 pm    Post subject: New role for the E-Bus? Reply with quote
I'm starting to get the feeling that no one around here owns an airplane Smile.

I have never left the master switch on after a flight, the checklist doesn't get put away until it's done. But if you have the master on while you are working on the airplane, and then do something for a couple minutes on the bench, and then decide to stop for lunch, it's a lot harder to walk away from a powered up aircraft if the nav lights are on. In fact the only times I've ever managed to do it was when some well meaning idiot turned the nav lights off for me.
It's standard practice for the airlines, I've always made it standard practice for all aircraft I fly or manage.
On Mon, Apr 6, 2020, 17:17 John B <jbsoar(at)gmail.com (jbsoar(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
You left the master switch on???  This is easy to do, in a cockpit with only one crewmember, as there is no valid challenge-response shutdown checklist like the ones used in crewed aircraft.  To (hopefully) ameliorate this possibility in my Yak 55M, I've installed a Davtron voltmeter.  The display is rather large.  It displays bus voltage, thus, any time the master switch is on, system voltage is displayed.  The cost of the meter is less than the inconvenience of a dead battery, and it weighs about as much as a pack of cigarettes...  I picked green, but other colors are available, and I believe it dims automatically...  ('Not a factor in a day-VFR aerobatic airplane.)  Dark cockpit=Master switch off.  

As an aside, read the fine print on the B&C voltage regulator.  The low volt light may NOT flash if one's battery is well-charged.  Bob, can you add to this?

John B

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 6:40 PM Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
The problem with an obnoxious warning device is that it is obnoxious. I'm not about to add something that warns me that my clearance delivery switch is on since it will be on before almost every flight.

But if you have a circuit design for an obnoxious warning that only signals when my brain has forgotten something, I'll take it.
On Mon, Apr 6, 2020, 14:47 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 02:57 PM 4/6/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
Yes, anything less than 13.8 V gives a visual and audio alarm but that's only useful with the engine running.
Doesn't help when forgetting the master on and walking away from the aircraft to come back a couple days later with a dead battery.

  Yup. The LV warning light on B&C controllers
  is active whether or not the engine is running.
  Also, it's not difficult to add an appropriately
  obnoxious stand-alone warning device.


  Bob . . .




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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:56 pm    Post subject: New role for the E-Bus? Reply with quote
I wonder how many 300A spikes from the starter motor coming on line it'll take to let the magic smoke out of an 75A relay. You can get 'cube' type automotive relays rated at up to  ~120A, but  even those I wouldn't want to run starter current through.

Charlie

On 4/6/2020 7:23 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote:

Quote:
FYI...



On the topic of low-power master relays as an alternative to traditional "tin-can" or solid-state relays,


Here is a Bosch relay with contacts rated 75A and the coil draws around 0.2 A, (instead of 0.7A or higher as with some "tin-can" relays).  I'm using it for my master relay. It costs about $35.


Bosch part #: V23232-D0001-X001



Here an Amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0117FAGVO?tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1





On Monday, April 6, 2020, 04:52:27 PM PDT, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> (cluros(at)gmail.com) wrote:




It is flashing, inside the plane. Doesn't help outside the plane.
On Mon, Apr 6, 2020, 14:51 Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
If your master is on, but the engine isn't running, Why isn't the LV alarm flashing?

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 3:08 PM Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Yes, anything less than 13.8 V gives a visual and audio alarm but that's only useful with the engine running.
Doesn't help when forgetting the master on and walking away from the aircraft to come back a couple days later with a dead battery.

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 10:24 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 11:32 AM 4/6/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
I have the Nav lights on anytime the aircraft is electrically powered. Several times it has saved me from walking away to come back to a dead battery.
 You don't have obnoxious notification of low volts?
  Bob . . .










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jluckey(at)pacbell.net
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:18 pm    Post subject: New role for the E-Bus? Reply with quote
Hey Charlie,
My start solenoid is not downstream of the master relay, so it won't ever see starter current.

On Monday, April 6, 2020, 06:05:27 PM PDT, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:




I wonder how many 300A spikes from the starter motor coming on line it'll take to let the magic smoke out of an 75A relay. You can get 'cube' type automotive relays rated at up to ~120A, but even those I wouldn't want to run starter current through. Charlie On 4/6/2020 7:23 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote:
Quote:


FYI...

On the topic of low-power master relays as an alternative to traditional "tin-can" or solid-state relays,

Here is a Bosch relay with contacts rated 75A and the coil draws around 0.2 A, (instead of 0.7A or higher as with some "tin-can" relays). I'm using it for my master relay. It costs about $35.

Bosch part #: V23232-D0001-X001

Here an Amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0117FAGVO?tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1



On Monday, April 6, 2020, 04:52:27 PM PDT, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> (cluros(at)gmail.com) wrote:


It is flashing, inside the plane. Doesn't help outside the plane.
On Mon, Apr 6, 2020, 14:51 Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
If your master is on, but the engine isn't running, Why isn't the LV alarm flashing?

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 3:08 PM Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Yes, anything less than 13.8 V gives a visual and audio alarm but that's only useful with the engine running.
Doesn't help when forgetting the master on and walking away from the aircraft to come back a couple days later with a dead battery.

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 10:24 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 11:32 AM 4/6/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
I have the Nav lights on anytime the aircraft is electrically powered. Several times it has saved me from walking away to come back to a dead battery.
You don't have obnoxious notification of low volts?
Bob . . .










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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:47 pm    Post subject: New role for the E-Bus? Reply with quote
And the resistance in the device is????

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 6, 2020, at 8:14 PM, Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net (jluckey(at)pacbell.net)> wrote:
Quote:

Hey Charlie,
My start solenoid is not downstream of the master relay, so it won't ever see starter current.

On Monday, April 6, 2020, 06:05:27 PM PDT, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:




I wonder how many 300A spikes from the starter motor coming on line it'll take to let the magic smoke out of an 75A relay. You can get 'cube' type automotive relays rated at up to ~120A, but even those I wouldn't want to run starter current through. Charlie On 4/6/2020 7:23 PM, Jeff Luckey wrote:
Quote:


FYI...

On the topic of low-power master relays as an alternative to traditional "tin-can" or solid-state relays,

Here is a Bosch relay with contacts rated 75A and the coil draws around 0.2 A, (instead of 0.7A or higher as with some "tin-can" relays). I'm using it for my master relay. It costs about $35.

Bosch part #: V23232-D0001-X001

Here an Amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0117FAGVO?tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1



On Monday, April 6, 2020, 04:52:27 PM PDT, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> (cluros(at)gmail.com) wrote:


It is flashing, inside the plane. Doesn't help outside the plane.
On Mon, Apr 6, 2020, 14:51 Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
If your master is on, but the engine isn't running, Why isn't the LV alarm flashing?

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 3:08 PM Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Yes, anything less than 13.8 V gives a visual and audio alarm but that's only useful with the engine running.
Doesn't help when forgetting the master on and walking away from the aircraft to come back a couple days later with a dead battery.

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 10:24 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 11:32 AM 4/6/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
I have the Nav lights on anytime the aircraft is electrically powered. Several times it has saved me from walking away to come back to a dead battery.
You don't have obnoxious notification of low volts?
Bob . . .










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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:48 pm    Post subject: New role for the E-Bus? Reply with quote
That works too Dee if you have a red beacon. I find the nav lights a better option since it's visible from any angle, and also because the beacon normally is used on the ground to warn people that engines are running or that the aircraft may move whereas the convention for nav lights on the ground indicates the aircraft is powered.
Also many amateur built aircraft do not have a beacon since the strobe lights meet the requirement for a beacon. I think leaving the strobes on might be a little aggressive Smile.

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020, 17:50 DeWitt Whittington <dee.whittington(at)gmail.com (dee.whittington(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
I solved the problem of leaving the master switch on years ago when I was in 4 Cessna flying club. I instituted a protocol of leaving the flashing beacon (tail strobe) on all the time. Much brighter than the nav lights. After that no one of the 50 or so members walked out with that flashing light so totally obvious after closing the hangar door and turning of the fluorescent lighting. Problem solved.

Dee

Quote:
On Apr 6, 2020, at 7:30 PM, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

It is flashing, inside the plane. Doesn't help outside the plane.

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020, 14:51 Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
If your master is on, but the engine isn't running, Why isn't the LV alarm flashing?
On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 3:08 PM Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
Yes, anything less than 13.8 V gives a visual and audio alarm but that's only useful with the engine running.

Doesn't help when forgetting the master on and walking away from the aircraft to come back a couple days later with a dead battery.
On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 10:24 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 11:32 AM 4/6/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
I have the Nav lights on anytime the aircraft is electrically powered. Several
times it has saved me from walking away to come back to a dead battery.

 You don't have obnoxious notification of low volts?


  Bob . . .








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bcone1381



Joined: 25 Apr 2017
Posts: 42
Location: Southeast Michigan
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:30 am    Post subject: Re: New role for the E-Bus? Reply with quote
Quote:
My start solenoid is not downstream of the master relay, so it won't ever see starter current.


I'm interested how you have this wired. I trust the architecture of your electrical system allows for a method to de-power the starter in the event that the Starter Relay fails with the starter on. It seems to me like the normal way its done is by having start solenoid downstream of the Master Relay.

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Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build
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kensmith(at)springnet1.co
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:45 am    Post subject: New role for the E-Bus? Reply with quote
     Excellent idea Sebastian!!!

Quote:
I have the Nav lights on anytime the aircraft is electrically powered. Several times it has saved me from walking away to come back to a dead battery.

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020, 09:14 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 12:13 PM 4/5/2020, you wrote:
Bob from what I have seen Z01 would be exactly
what I would be looking for on my next aircraft.

1. Z-14 is too complex for me from a cost,
weight, and maintenance point of view.

  Probably true for 95+ percent of all
  OBAM aircraft.

2. I have no need for an e-bus since an alternator failure
will be detected right away and after switching to the SD-8
there is plenty of time to shut down individual loads that
aren't required at that time if the flight time remaining
deems it necessary.

  Another feature of the e-bus was to unburden
  the SD8 of carrying a battery contactor load.
  The battery contactor is about a 0.7A load,
  a significant fraction of SD8 output. That
  amount of current would be better used to
  keep a couple of solid state electro-whizzies
  lit up . . . but if your load analysis says
  that contactor loads can be handily support
  as part of  your plan-b loads, then no
  problem!

3. Since both Garmin and Dynon have excellent backup
batteries that will power essential systems only for
flight and navigation, I was never interested in a brownout
bus. Last year I discovered that if you program your
flight plan into the GPS navigator with the engine shut
down it's usually fine but every once in a while the
engine cranking takes a bit too long and the navigator resets,
clearing out the flight plan. Preventing this would be
useful so now I'm a fan of the brownout bus. Having the
nav lights, one COM and the GPS navigator on that bus
with a clearance delivery switch to power it by itself
would be something I would use just about every flight.

  Brown out/endurance/clearance are one
  and the same bus. Why nav lights?

4. I think electrically dependent engines are becoming
the norm rather than the exception for new amateur
built aircraft.

  Yup, the seeds were already in the ground
  at my first trip to OSH in '86. There
  were a couple electronic ignitions being
  offered that year not the least of what
  would become LightSpeed.


  Bob . . .





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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:27 am    Post subject: New role for the E-Bus? Reply with quote
At 06:30 AM 4/7/2020, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bcone1381" <bcone1964(at)gmail.com>


> My start solenoid is not downstream of the master relay, so it won't ever see starter current.
>
I'm interested how you have this wired. I trust the architecture of your electrical system allows for a method to de-power the starter in the event that the Starter Relay fails with the starter on. It seems to me like the normal way its done is by having start solenoid downstream of the Master Relay.

This has been conventional practice in TC
aircraft for about a century . . .



Bob . . .

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:57 am    Post subject: New role for the E-Bus? Reply with quote
Quote:
I wonder how many 300A spikes from the starter motor coming on line
it'll take to let the magic smoke out of an 75A relay. You can get
'cube' type automotive relays rated at up to ~120A, but even those
I wouldn't want to run starter current through.

I've had several 'modern', high current plastic relays
on the bench for a tear-down, look-see. One of them
looked as if it MIGHT stand the rigors of battery
master contactor on a small engine.

The ratings on a suitable device don't tell the
whole story. As background I'll refer the reader
to the specs for one of several, legacy products
with very long track records:

https://tinyurl.com/uqsxek8

Note that this device is rated at only 80A. But
keep in mind that these are SWITCH not CARRY
ratings. Relay and switch contact wear is
a function of energy released in the air-gap
between contact bounces (when closing) and
contact spreading (when opening). Switching
limitations are established based on design
goals for meeting service life for tens of
thousands of operations.

It's not a stretch to suggest that one
of the modern, plastic wonders might well
replace our venerable whisky-barrel style
contactors as a battery master relay.

There are other considerations: The legacy
contactors with their robust, 5/16" studs
are handy gathering places for multiple
wires . . . some of them pretty fat. Mechanical
robustness of these studs has proven valuable
and convenient. But even these studs are
sometimes too short to accommodate more than
3 terminals.

The attached figure is an excerpt from the
work-in-progress, Z01 architecture study.
In that drawing I have suggest an yet-to-be-
defined device for expanding the number of
wires that can be gathered together at
one contactor fat-wire stud.

I encourage exploration of modern options
for replacing legacy practices . . . that's
what Z01 is all about. But it's a good thing
to run new ideas up a very tall flagpole
before incorporating it into flying hardware
. . . especially for things that can have
a system-wide failure impact if not a risk
for fire if suffering a high-energy self
destruct event. Whisky-barrel contactors
are all metal . . . few modern designs
are so well confined.

Further, device ratings are but one data point
in bucket of sands to be sifted.


Bob . . .

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:39 am    Post subject: New role for the E-Bus? Reply with quote
Hello Brooks,
I have been watching some of your threads with interest. You seem to be asking lots of good questions.
I'm in the process of building an RV-7, currently working on the wings & fuel tanks.
You wrote:
"I trust the architecture of your electrical system allows for a method to de-power the starter in the event that the Starter Relay fails with the starter on. "
The answer is that I do not. I consider the likelihood of a welded-shut start solenoid to be so rare as to not be a factor. But I also don't use a traditional "tin-can" start solenoid. I'm using a Ford start solenoid that has be optimized (by Ford sometime back in the 80's) specifically for the task of cranking engines. I've heard them referred to as "pancake" solenoids.  They look like this:
https://www.amazon.com/ACDelco-F3914-Professional-Starter-Solenoid/dp/B000IYY3KQ/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=ford+starter+solenoid&qid=1586279687&sr=8-9

Herein lies the beauty of OBAM aircraft: we have the freedom to specify the parts we feel are better suited for a particular job. So I have decided to use this start solenoid and, as I mentioned in previous post, the Bosch relay for my master as it has a much lower current draw (and has the coil fly-back diode built in).
I have designed my own electrical system. (In a former life, I worked as an engineer for vehicular power systems). Attached is a schematic of my electrical system for your amusement.



On Tuesday, April 7, 2020, 04:44:11 AM PDT, bcone1381 <bcone1964(at)gmail.com> wrote:




--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bcone1381" <bcone1964(at)gmail.com (bcone1964(at)gmail.com)>

Quote:
My start solenoid is not downstream of the master relay, so it won't ever see starter current.

Quote:




I'm interested how you have this wired. I trust the architecture of your electrical system allows for a method to de-power the starter in the event that the Starter Relay fails with the starter on. It seems to me like the normal way its done is by having start solenoid downstream of the Master Relay.

--------

Brooks Cone

Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495666#495666


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subknave



Joined: 17 Jun 2013
Posts: 17
Location: portsmouth, va
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:14 pm    Post subject: New role for the E-Bus? Reply with quote
In most installations the master switch has to be energized before the starter solenoid can get power. If that is the case here shutting off the master would de-energize the starter.

Rodney Hall

Quote:
On April 7, 2020 at 1:32 PM Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> wrote:


Hello Brooks,


I have been watching some of your threads with interest.  You seem to be asking lots of good questions.


I'm in the process of building an RV-7, currently working on the wings & fuel tanks.


You wrote: 
" I trust the architecture of your electrical system allows for a method to de-power the starter in the event that the Starter Relay fails with the starter on. "


The answer is that I do not.  I consider the likelihood of a welded-shut start solenoid to be so rare as to not be a factor.  But I also don't use a traditional "tin-can" start solenoid.  I'm using a Ford start solenoid that has be optimized (by Ford sometime back in the 80's) specifically for the task of cranking engines.  I've heard them referred to as "pancake" solenoids.  They look like this:


https://www.amazon.com/ACDelco-F3914-Professional-Starter-Solenoid/dp/B000IYY3KQ/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=ford+starter+solenoid&qid=1586279687&sr=8-9



Herein lies the beauty of OBAM aircraft:  we have the freedom to specify the parts we feel are better suited for a particular job.  So I have decided to use this start solenoid and, as I mentioned in previous post, the Bosch relay for my master as it has a much lower current draw (and has the coil fly-back diode built in).


I have designed my own electrical system.  (In a former life, I worked as an engineer for vehicular power systems).  Attached is a schematic of my electrical system for your amusement.





On Tuesday, April 7, 2020, 04:44:11 AM PDT, bcone1381 <bcone1964(at)gmail.com> wrote:




--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bcone1381" < bcone1964(at)gmail.com (bcone1964(at)gmail.com)>





> My start solenoid is not downstream of the master relay, so it won't ever see starter current.

>





I'm interested how you have this wired.  I trust the architecture of your electrical system allows for a method to de-power the starter in the event that the Starter Relay fails with the starter on.  It seems to me like the normal way its done is by having start solenoid downstream of the Master Relay.



--------

Brooks Cone

Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build









Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495666#495666













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