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Prolonged idling/taxiing

 
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1906



Joined: 30 Nov 2018
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:08 pm    Post subject: Prolonged idling/taxiing Reply with quote

The M14P manual warns against prolonged idling which could cause "oiling" and probably spark plug fouling. If you are in this situation, forced to idle/taxi for some 15 minutes or more, what's the best course of action? Question for both scenarios - before a shutdown or before a takeoff.

Thanks.


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markbitterlich(at)embarqm
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:37 am    Post subject: Prolonged idling/taxiing Reply with quote

If you are talking about what I *THINK* you are .... at idle the sump return
pump will not be spinning fast enough to return all the oil back to the
tank. There should be a comment somewhere in the aircraft operating manual
that recommends that you run the engine up to about 60-70% (pulling that
number from memory) for about 30 seconds or so, before shut down. The same
applies to long sitting times at idle while waiting for the tower. Simply
run the engine up for 30 seconds or so, and problem solved.

Mark
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1906



Joined: 30 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Prolonged idling/taxiing Reply with quote

Thank you Mark. That is what I thought but wanted to double check.

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Ttail



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Prolonged idling/taxiing Reply with quote

Are you referring to Plug fouling ?

I see this quite often on an Auto converted M14PF. As soon as a see a cylinder starting to go backwards CHT wise a run up is needed to clear the offending plug.

For me this is an issue any time their is extended taxi times and or holding before take off.


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stephen.hayne



Joined: 01 Nov 2013
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Location: United States

PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:35 am    Post subject: Re: Prolonged idling/taxiing Reply with quote

If plug fouling is the concern, this can be "fixed" by decoupling the mixture from the throttle, and leaning aggressively on the ground. Takes about an hour, and some people reverse the arm on the carb so that it operates like a US mixture. After 80 hours unreversed, and making one almost mistake on a go-around (pushing everything forward), I think I going to do mine that way.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:07 pm    Post subject: Prolonged idling/taxiing Reply with quote

Good advice, but M14P's do not generally come equipped with a manual mixture
control.

Mark
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stephen.hayne



Joined: 01 Nov 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Prolonged idling/taxiing Reply with quote

Sorry! I had CJ and Housai on the brain...

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AlaskaChang801



Joined: 26 Jan 2018
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: Prolonged idling/taxiing Reply with quote

stephen.hayne wrote:
If plug fouling is the concern, this can be "fixed" by decoupling the mixture from the throttle, and leaning aggressively on the ground. Takes about an hour, and some people reverse the arm on the carb so that it operates like a US mixture. After 80 hours unreversed, and making one almost mistake on a go-around (pushing everything forward), I think I going to do mine that way.


So you bring up a question I've had for a while now and quite honestly, I've been happy to be ignorant on the situation. So I think it's time to clarify this for me.
I bought my CJ and it had been modified in the way you mentioned. So when I go forward on my mixture lever I'm going to FULL Rich. I typically run mine forward for "start" and pull it back about half way for taxi. Full forward for the run up and takeoff. Then I'm pulling it back to about half way or a little further for cruise. Again forward for landing and half back after rollout and up to parking.
So my question is ?? Is this an ok way to run it? with not having a EGT to monitor I'm cautious of pulling to far Lean and have been warned not to so that I don't burn up the exhaust valves.
Also, how far back should I bring it for cruise and should I adjust that based on cruise altitude. Again not having an EGT how do I determine what's safe and not leaning out too much.

Thanks for your input


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stephen.hayne



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Prolonged idling/taxiing Reply with quote

This is a bit tricky to answer, because it depends on how the "cruise" mixture screw has been set, and how the "idle" mixture screw has been set. There are manual pages describing how to set these, but at 5000', I was running too rich at idle. So, I turned the idle "in" (righty tighty), 3 clicks. Seems better.

Then I did the same for the "cruise" screw (before installing an MGL FF3). Then, at pattern altitude, on downwind, I would "push" (or pull in your case), the mixture forward until I got noticeable power/speed reduction. Engine won't fail, or sputter, but it will just "fade". If that happened when I was almost at the stop, I feel like that is good, because then I can lean quite a bit at altitude for cruise.

After installing the FF3, I now lean for about 2.6gph at idle (noticeable idle rpm rise), and then for whatever the book calls for at cruise, plus just a little because it seems to be too slow at those gph... Smile

I don't think you can hurt the engine much, since it is carbureted. Tough to get too "lean of peak". Read up about the 182 and "lean of peak" if you want a controversy.

You are likely at sea level, so I think that full rich at TO and LDNG is very smart.

But, I think you can play with the settings a bit (clicks) and if you can get the engine to significantly slow just as you get to full lean, then you might be in the sweet spot. Look for an RPM rise, an inch before getting to full lean, maybe?


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443LM Nanchang CJA
http://selfsynchronize.com/hayne/plane/cj6.asp
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AlaskaChang801



Joined: 26 Jan 2018
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Prolonged idling/taxiing Reply with quote

stephen.hayne wrote:
This is a bit tricky to answer, because it depends on how the "cruise" mixture screw has been set, and how the "idle" mixture screw has been set. There are manual pages describing how to set these, but at 5000', I was running too rich at idle. So, I turned the idle "in" (righty tighty), 3 clicks. Seems better.

Then I did the same for the "cruise" screw (before installing an MGL FF3). Then, at pattern altitude, on downwind, I would "push" (or pull in your case), the mixture forward until I got noticeable power/speed reduction. Engine won't fail, or sputter, but it will just "fade". If that happened when I was almost at the stop, I feel like that is good, because then I can lean quite a bit at altitude for cruise.

After installing the FF3, I now lean for about 2.6gph at idle (noticeable idle rpm rise), and then for whatever the book calls for at cruise, plus just a little because it seems to be too slow at those gph... Smile

I don't think you can hurt the engine much, since it is carbureted. Tough to get too "lean of peak". Read up about the 182 and "lean of peak" if you want a controversy.

You are likely at sea level, so I think that full rich at TO and LDNG is very smart.

But, I think you can play with the settings a bit (clicks) and if you can get the engine to significantly slow just as you get to full lean, then you might be in the sweet spot. Look for an RPM rise, an inch before getting to full lean, maybe?

Thanks for the info and advice. I guess I've got to dig in a little deeper and figure out what my mixture screws are set at and start from there.


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stephen.hayne



Joined: 01 Nov 2013
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Location: United States

PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:09 am    Post subject: Re: Prolonged idling/taxiing Reply with quote

Here are some links to the manual pages for adjusting these screws... (and the Fuel Flow that I installed).

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1DKFaSiQNhG2ar0QLg8qSlwTcU99xpqT2?usp=sharing


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http://selfsynchronize.com/hayne/plane/cj6.asp
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:18 am    Post subject: Prolonged idling/taxiing Reply with quote

Something worth knowing that is not necessarily explained in task cards for M-14 carb adjustments is that a lot of cooling for the engine is provided by fuel, which is why they are often adjusted rich on purpose. That and the fact that CHT's vary significantly from one to the next in flight. Adjusting carb mixture screws should be approached with caution. 

Mark
-------- Original message --------
From: "stephen.hayne" <stephen.hayne(at)gmail.com>
Date: 10/16/19 12:09 (GMT-05:00)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Prolonged idling/taxiing

--> Yak-List message posted by: "stephen.hayne" <stephen.hayne(at)gmail.com>

Here are some links to the manual pages for adjusting these screws... (and the Fuel Flow that I installed).

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1DKFaSiQNhG2ar0QLg8qSlwTcU99xpqT2?usp=sharing

--------
-
Stephen Hayne, Professor, CIS, Colorado State University
666CJA
http://selfsynchronize.com/hayne/plane/cj6.asp


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AlaskaChang801



Joined: 26 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Prolonged idling/taxiing Reply with quote

Thanks for the links. Will do some research into mine.

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