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Transponder question

 
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rick(at)beebe.org
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:51 pm    Post subject: Transponder question Reply with quote

What is it about a transponder that makes the FAA require it only be installed by a certified shop? Even if it's just been pulled from the rack? I hadn't thought much about it until a couple weeks ago when I had the plane at the shop for the biennial transponder check. I forgot the log book and he said that if he had to pull the transponder to look at the serial number that it would cost more because they'd have to recertify it. So what can happen to a transponder when it's pulled from the rack?
--Rick


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:21 pm    Post subject: Transponder question Reply with quote

On 12/30/2018 9:48 PM, Rick Beebe wrote:

Quote:

What is it about a transponder that makes the FAA require it only be installed by a certified shop? Even if it's just been pulled from the rack? I hadn't thought much about it until a couple weeks ago when I had the plane at the shop for the biennial transponder check. I forgot the log book and he said that if he had to pull the transponder to look at the serial number that it would cost more because they'd have to recertify it. So what can happen to a transponder when it's pulled from the rack?
--Rick
Only thing I've heard about re-cert is if the static system is opened. My neighbor does xpndr certs; I'll ask him if I see him in the next few days.

Charlie
Virus-free. www.avast.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]


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millner(at)me.com
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:51 pm    Post subject: Transponder question Reply with quote

Technically, I don't think that's strictly true... the rule as I recall it is that high power transmitters (like our transponders and DME equipment, that can output hundreds or even 1,000 watts) must be reinstalled by an A&P or repair station. The concern is that if the antenna connection isn't properly made, it could prove to be a source of ignition, and fires in airplanes are bad things.

Quote:
> I hadn't thought much about it until a couple weeks ago when I had the plane at the shop for the biennial transponder check. I forgot the log book, and he said that if he had to pull the transponder to look at the serial number, that it would cost more because they'd have to recertify it.
  I don't believe that's a general requirement; perhaps it's part of his repair stations procedures... I don't think an A&P doing an R&R on a transponder, say, to replace another component has to do a recertification, whatever your guy meant by that term. They just have to determine proper function. Readers have a reference?

  >> So what can happen to a transponder when it's pulled from the rack?
 
If you improperly reinstall it, you can turn a lot of power into heat.



Paul <![endif]--> Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE <![endif]--> <![endif]--> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:8.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:107%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} <![endif]-->


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Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1583
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:07 pm    Post subject: Transponder question Reply with quote

In theory, if the connection has slightly different resistance after the
pull and re-install, the propagation pattern for a transmitter in the
1030-1090Mhz frequency at 150-250 watts could be slightly different. So,
in theory a quick look at the ramp checker should be done. As a
practical matter, I've never seen it change anything. Any A&P can
install the transponder, but a repair station must certify it. Unless
you are the builder (manufacturer) of the aircraft and have a proper
test set to be able to certify it yourself as the aircraft manufacturer
in the case of a homebuilt.
Then there is the matter of the shop being jerks. He could wait a day or
two for you to bring in the logs. He could do the ramp check...if it
isn't turned on until he gets there it takes 5 min for the transponder
to warm up (for the old cavity tube variety) or less for solid state. He
can make the choice. If he had inquired before starting the test, he
could have pulled the unit, got the serial number and reinstalled before
doing the test. He is just forgetting that he is in the customer service
business, and you can go elsewhere.

For those that don't know the full reg on static system checks...it only
has to be certified once every 2 years, regardless of how many times you
open the system. Now if you change altimeter or encoder, that is
different story. If you just open a connection and put it back together,
any A&P can do a leak check on the system (holds 1000 ft AGL for 1
minute with no more than 100 ft loss). The certification says the system
meets that leak test, and altitude requirements for the altimeter.

On 12/30/2018 8:48 PM, Rick Beebe wrote:
Quote:
What is it about a transponder that makes the FAA require it only be
installed by a certified shop? Even if it's just been pulled from the
rack? I hadn't thought much about it until a couple weeks ago when I had
the plane at the shop for the biennial transponder check. I forgot the
log book and he said that if he had to pull the transponder to look at
the serial number that it would cost more because they'd have to
recertify it. So what can happen to a transponder when it's pulled from
the rack?

--Rick



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rick(at)beebe.org
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:31 pm    Post subject: Transponder question Reply with quote

In all fairness he let me fly home and email him the serial number. Then
he mailed me the sticker for the log book and the bill. It just made me
curious, that's all.

--Rick

On 12/30/2018 11:59 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
Quote:
Then there is the matter of the shop being jerks. He could wait a day
or two for you to bring in the logs. He could do the ramp check...if
it isn't turned on until he gets there it takes 5 min for the
transponder to warm up (for the old cavity tube variety) or less for
solid state. He can make the choice. If he had inquired before
starting the test, he could have pulled the unit, got the serial
number and reinstalled before doing the test. He is just forgetting
that he is in the customer service business, and you can go elsewhere.



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art(at)zemon.name
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:51 am    Post subject: Transponder question Reply with quote

Slight clarification, which I just learned about on Friday when I had the inspections (plural) done for my about-to-be-flown-for-the-first-time BD-4c. There are actually two inspections
  1. static system leak check, done once
  2. transponder check, done every two years
The second one didn't worry me but I was very relieved that my static system did not leak 😁
Cheers,
    -- Art Z.

On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:22 PM Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:

Quote:
For those that don't know the full reg on static system checks...it only
has to be certified once every 2 years, regardless of how many times you
open the system. Now if you change altimeter or encoder, that is
different story. If you just open a connection and put it back together,
any A&P can do a leak check on the system (holds 1000 ft AGL for 1
minute with no more than 100 ft loss). The certification says the system
meets that leak test, and altitude requirements for the altimeter.

--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle."


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alec(at)alecmyers.com
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:43 am    Post subject: Transponder question Reply with quote

Transponders have a power output of 100 watts for the duration of a transmission which is only milliseconds long. The average power output is tiny. They can’t possibly set fire to anything. They don’t need thick cables or high power breakers either.
Same for DME.

On Dec 30, 2018, at 23:49, Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com (millner(at)me.com)> wrote:

Technically, I don't think that's strictly true... the rule as I recall it is that high power transmitters (like our transponders and DME equipment, that can output hundreds or even 1,000 watts) must be reinstalled by an A&P or repair station. The concern is that if the antenna connection isn't properly made, it could prove to be a source of ignition, and fires in airplanes are bad things.

Quote:
> I hadn't thought much about it until a couple weeks ago when I had the plane at the shop for the biennial transponder check. I forgot the log book, and he said that if he had to pull the transponder to look at the serial number, that it would cost more because they'd have to recertify it.
I don't believe that's a general requirement; perhaps it's part of his repair stations procedures... I don't think an A&P doing an R&R on a transponder, say, to replace another component has to do a recertification, whatever your guy meant by that term. They just have to determine proper function. Readers have a reference?

>> So what can happen to a transponder when it's pulled from the rack?

If you improperly reinstall it, you can turn a lot of power into heat.



Paul <![endif]--> Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE <![endif]--> <![endif]--> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:8.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:107%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} <![endif]-->


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:48 am    Post subject: Transponder question Reply with quote

How is a quick ramp check going to reveal a propagation pattern? You’d need to put the plane in a radiation proof chamber with absorbing walls and you’d need to position your calibrated antenna at a range of different angles. Or rotate the aircraft.
On Dec 30, 2018, at 23:59, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:



In theory, if the connection has slightly different resistance after the pull and re-install, the propagation pattern for a transmitter in the 1030-1090Mhz frequency at 150-250 watts could be slightly different. So, in theory a quick look at the ramp checker should be done. As a practical matter, I've never seen it change anything. Any A&P can install the transponder, but a repair station must certify it. Unless you are the builder (manufacturer) of the aircraft and have a proper test set to be able to certify it yourself as the aircraft manufacturer in the case of a homebuilt.
Then there is the matter of the shop being jerks. He could wait a day or two for you to bring in the logs. He could do the ramp check...if it isn't turned on until he gets there it takes 5 min for the transponder to warm up (for the old cavity tube variety) or less for solid state. He can make the choice. If he had inquired before starting the test, he could have pulled the unit, got the serial number and reinstalled before doing the test. He is just forgetting that he is in the customer service business, and you can go elsewhere.

For those that don't know the full reg on static system checks...it only has to be certified once every 2 years, regardless of how many times you open the system. Now if you change altimeter or encoder, that is different story. If you just open a connection and put it back together, any A&P can do a leak check on the system (holds 1000 ft AGL for 1 minute with no more than 100 ft loss). The certification says the system meets that leak test, and altitude requirements for the altimeter.

Quote:
On 12/30/2018 8:48 PM, Rick Beebe wrote:
What is it about a transponder that makes the FAA require it only be installed by a certified shop? Even if it's just been pulled from the rack? I hadn't thought much about it until a couple weeks ago when I had the plane at the shop for the biennial transponder check. I forgot the log book and he said that if he had to pull the transponder to look at the serial number that it would cost more because they'd have to recertify it. So what can happen to a transponder when it's pulled from the rack?
--Rick


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bob.verwey(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:49 am    Post subject: Transponder question Reply with quote

Art, you are about to join a very exclusive club of somewhat flamboyant individuals who, through their fortitude in the pursuit of excellence in their hobby, have finally finished that last task!
I always marvel at the fact that a seemingly random collection of bits and pieces numbering thousands, can on a given day defeat the laws of gravity...even if it isn't really so!
Well done Mate!
Best...Bob Verwey

082 331 2727
[img]https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B5d7rgAInTuTUUZsUjY4QmJsdVU&revid=0B5d7rgAInTuTdDJDaXRFZVh3b3lMa3FWL0s3MFdzc01YRlNvPQ[/img]

On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 at 14:56, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:

Quote:
Slight clarification, which I just learned about on Friday when I had the inspections (plural) done for my about-to-be-flown-for-the-first-time BD-4c. There are actually two inspections
  1. static system leak check, done once
  2. transponder check, done every two years
The second one didn't worry me but I was very relieved that my static system did not leak 😁
Cheers,
    -- Art Z.

On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:22 PM Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:

Quote:
For those that don't know the full reg on static system checks...it only
has to be certified once every 2 years, regardless of how many times you
open the system. Now if you change altimeter or encoder, that is
different story. If you just open a connection and put it back together,
any A&P can do a leak check on the system (holds 1000 ft AGL for 1
minute with no more than 100 ft loss). The certification says the system
meets that leak test, and altitude requirements for the altimeter.

--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle."



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alec(at)alecmyers.com
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:05 am    Post subject: Transponder question Reply with quote

Further to this:

A transponder transmission is between 2 and 16 pulses of 45uS width. According to Bendix King, the KT76A has a peak power output of 200W. Let’s say you’re in a busy TCAS environment and your transponder is firing twice per second. Mean radiated power (worst case) will be 200 * 2 * 16 * 45 * 1e-6 = 18mW. Definitely not a risk to anything.
On Dec 31, 2018, at 8:41 AM, Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> wrote:

Transponders have a power output of 100 watts for the duration of a transmission which is only milliseconds long. The average power output is tiny. They can’t possibly set fire to anything. They don’t need thick cables or high power breakers either.

Same for DME.

On Dec 30, 2018, at 23:49, Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com> wrote:

Technically, I don't think that's strictly true... the rule as I recall it is that high power transmitters (like our transponders and DME equipment, that can output hundreds or even 1,000 watts) must be reinstalled by an A&P or repair station. The concern is that if the antenna connection isn't properly made, it could prove to be a source of ignition, and fires in airplanes are bad things.
Quote:
> I hadn't thought much about it until a couple weeks ago when I had the plane at the shop for the biennial transponder check. I forgot the log book, and he said that if he had to pull the transponder to look at the serial number, that it would cost more because they'd have to recertify it.

I don't believe that's a general requirement; perhaps it's part of his repair stations procedures... I don't think an A&P doing an R&R on a transponder, say, to replace another component has to do a recertification, whatever your guy meant by that term. They just have to determine proper function. Readers have a reference?

Quote:
> So what can happen to a transponder when it's pulled from the rack?

If you improperly reinstall it, you can turn a lot of power into heat.

Paul


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Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1583
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:05 am    Post subject: Transponder question Reply with quote

You are right...I used the wrong term. It isn't propagation per se, it
is the specific output parameters the FAA wants checked, like exact
frequency, power, etc. They don't normally change, but the theoretical
potential is there, hence a bench check isn't sufficient, there has to
be a check of output from the entire system, including antenna, cable
and connections to the unit. I've experience a few shops that choose to
remove transponder, do bench check, then reinstall and do the ramp check.

On 12/31/2018 6:46 AM, Alec Myers wrote:
Quote:


How is a quick ramp check going to reveal a propagation pattern? You’d need to put the plane in a radiation proof chamber with absorbing walls and you’d need to position your calibrated antenna at a range of different angles. Or rotate the aircraft.


On Dec 30, 2018, at 23:59, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:



In theory, if the connection has slightly different resistance after the pull and re-install, the propagation pattern for a transmitter in the 1030-1090Mhz frequency at 150-250 watts could be slightly different. So, in theory a quick look at the ramp checker should be done. As a practical matter, I've never seen it change anything. Any A&P can install the transponder, but a repair station must certify it. Unless you are the builder (manufacturer) of the aircraft and have a proper test set to be able to certify it yourself as the aircraft manufacturer in the case of a homebuilt.
Then there is the matter of the shop being jerks. He could wait a day or two for you to bring in the logs. He could do the ramp check...if it isn't turned on until he gets there it takes 5 min for the transponder to warm up (for the old cavity tube variety) or less for solid state. He can make the choice. If he had inquired before starting the test, he could have pulled the unit, got the serial number and reinstalled before doing the test. He is just forgetting that he is in the customer service business, and you can go elsewhere.

For those that don't know the full reg on static system checks...it only has to be certified once every 2 years, regardless of how many times you open the system. Now if you change altimeter or encoder, that is different story. If you just open a connection and put it back together, any A&P can do a leak check on the system (holds 1000 ft AGL for 1 minute with no more than 100 ft loss). The certification says the system meets that leak test, and altitude requirements for the altimeter.

> On 12/30/2018 8:48 PM, Rick Beebe wrote:
> What is it about a transponder that makes the FAA require it only be installed by a certified shop? Even if it's just been pulled from the rack? I hadn't thought much about it until a couple weeks ago when I had the plane at the shop for the biennial transponder check. I forgot the log book and he said that if he had to pull the transponder to look at the serial number that it would cost more because they'd have to recertify it. So what can happen to a transponder when it's pulled from the rack?
> --Rick










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KCHD
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Clayton Harper



Joined: 11 Sep 2010
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:20 am    Post subject: Transponder question Reply with quote

Even though you are not an A&P, it is permissible for you to read the FARs.WinkSmile Look up 91.411 and 91.413. Those will tell you what is required, and who can do what. One will mention FAR 43 Appendix E and F. While you are in that area look at Appendix A and D. If you read those you will know 80% more than 50% of aircaft mechanics. You may also enjoy Todd Snider “Statistician’s Blues”.
Fun is challenging aviation “pro”s to give you a reference.

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Dec 31, 2018, at 7:46 AM, Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com> wrote:



How is a quick ramp check going to reveal a propagation pattern? You’d need to put the plane in a radiation proof chamber with absorbing walls and you’d need to position your calibrated antenna at a range of different angles. Or rotate the aircraft.


On Dec 30, 2018, at 23:59, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:



In theory, if the connection has slightly different resistance after the pull and re-install, the propagation pattern for a transmitter in the 1030-1090Mhz frequency at 150-250 watts could be slightly different. So, in theory a quick look at the ramp checker should be done. As a practical matter, I've never seen it change anything. Any A&P can install the transponder, but a repair station must certify it. Unless you are the builder (manufacturer) of the aircraft and have a proper test set to be able to certify it yourself as the aircraft manufacturer in the case of a homebuilt.
Then there is the matter of the shop being jerks. He could wait a day or two for you to bring in the logs. He could do the ramp check...if it isn't turned on until he gets there it takes 5 min for the transponder to warm up (for the old cavity tube variety) or less for solid state. He can make the choice. If he had inquired before starting the test, he could have pulled the unit, got the serial number and reinstalled before doing the test. He is just forgetting that he is in the customer service business, and you can go elsewhere.

For those that don't know the full reg on static system checks...it only has to be certified once every 2 years, regardless of how many times you open the system. Now if you change altimeter or encoder, that is different story. If you just open a connection and put it back together, any A&P can do a leak check on the system (holds 1000 ft AGL for 1 minute with no more than 100 ft loss). The certification says the system meets that leak test, and altitude requirements for the altimeter.

> On 12/30/2018 8:48 PM, Rick Beebe wrote:
> What is it about a transponder that makes the FAA require it only be installed by a certified shop? Even if it's just been pulled from the rack? I hadn't thought much about it until a couple weeks ago when I had the plane at the shop for the biennial transponder check. I forgot the log book and he said that if he had to pull the transponder to look at the serial number that it would cost more because they'd have to recertify it. So what can happen to a transponder when it's pulled from the rack?
> --Rick










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