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Question on Grounding

 
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Rocketman1988



Joined: 21 Jun 2012
Posts: 60

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:40 am    Post subject: Question on Grounding Reply with quote

I have an RV-10 that has a dedicated ground cable running from the aft battery to the firewall. This cable is connected to the firewall/panel (airframe) ground AND is connected near the battery, to the airframe.

My question is:

Would it be better to remove the cable in the aft near the battery and have only one connection to the airframe, the one at the firewall/panel?

Or is it ok to have two points of contact, one forward and one aft?


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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:01 am    Post subject: Question on Grounding Reply with quote

At 11:40 AM 10/31/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rocketman1988" <Rocketman(at)etczone.com>

I have an RV-10 that has a dedicated ground cable running from the aft battery to the firewall. This cable is connected to the firewall/panel (airframe) ground AND is connected near the battery, to the airframe.

My question is:

Would it be better to remove the cable in the aft near the battery and have only one connection to the airframe, the one at the firewall/panel?

Or is it ok to have two points of contact, one forward and one aft?

Resistance in the wire is higher than
thru the airframe . . . the only thing
it adds is weight. But it doesn't hurt
anything from an electrical perspective.



Bob . . .


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Rocketman1988



Joined: 21 Jun 2012
Posts: 60

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: Question on Grounding Reply with quote

Thanks, Bob.

I will just leave both attached...


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BARRY CHECK 6



Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 730

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:09 pm    Post subject: Question on Grounding Reply with quote

BOB!
Are you on  DRUGS!
I got to here your explanation on this one!
You are really saying that the resistance through the air frame is LESS than that of a singe run of COPPER wire?
WIRE HELL!  It's CABLE, what, a #2 AWG.  
AHhhhh  let me guess???  You are thinking that just because there is more surface area, the resistance will be lower?
This is DC not RF!
Well, ZERO is always ZERO.  And the shortest Zero between two points wins.
That would be the Cable.
What about all the lap joints?  Add some time to lap joints and you have a failure mode.  Maybe not much resistance, but even 1 mo is more than a cable.
And when you really consider it...  Since the CABLE is run in parallel with the air frame.  BOTH paths are winners.  

Sure it adds weight.  But I will gladly add weight and eliminate all those possible failure points.
Gee, isn't it Piper that tried using ONLY the air frame as a ground and had all types of failures, not only to the wiring but to the starter as well, as it was drawing excessive current and had a higher current draw? 
And then they got smart and started worrying about WEIGHT.  So they went to ALUMINUM Cables.  SMART!  Like dropping a brick on your foot, smart!  Those engineers must have gone to the same school as the engineers that used aluminum wire for house wiring...  Remember those house fires?  Which lead to higher insurance rates.  Aluminum, which led to an AD on their planes, an AD to replace the aluminum wire with Copper.
Totally Shocked,
Barry
On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 2:09 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 11:40 AM 10/31/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rocketman1988" <Rocketman(at)etczone.com (Rocketman(at)etczone.com)>

I have an RV-10 that has a dedicated ground cable running from the aft battery to the firewall.  This cable is connected to the firewall/panel (airframe) ground AND is connected near the battery, to the airframe.

My question is:

Would it be better to remove the cable in the aft near the battery and have only one connection to the airframe, the one at the firewall/panel?

Or is it ok to have two points of contact, one forward and one aft?

 Resistance in the wire is higher than
 thru the airframe . . . the only thing
 it adds is weight. But it doesn't hurt
 anything from an electrical perspective.



  Bob . . .


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stuart(at)stuarthutchison
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:13 pm    Post subject: Question on Grounding Reply with quote

Sorry, far more shocked by your comments Barry.

#2 AWG is only required for start currents and is overkill for relatively low current in-flight loads. There is already a big #2 AWG wire for positive to the starter motor and having another one for ground is simply unnecessary. As they say, worry about the grams added to the aeroplane and let the kilograms take care of themselves.

Yes, arcing between the stands of ally wire caused fires, which is why Eric Jones at Perihelion Design sells copper-clad (extruded) wire to stop oxidation and varying potential between strands. So, choose copper (heavy) or copper-clad ally (larger diameter but 45% lighter), but there is no need to add a ground wire for normal inflight loads that are very easily serviced by an ally airframe.
An extra big wire does little to improve start performance (if the wiring has gas tight connections to the airframe, which would also apply to any extra wire connected in parallel), so it adds nothing but unnecessary weight. The argument for separate power and ground wires and a forest of common ground tabs for smaller electrical items it’s is a totally different story.
Kind regards, Stu

Sent from my iPhone
On 1 Nov 2018, at 11:08, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
BOB!
Are you on DRUGS!
I got to here your explanation on this one!
You are really saying that the resistance through the air frame is LESS than that of a singe run of COPPER wire?
WIRE HELL! It's CABLE, what, a #2 AWG.
AHhhhh let me guess??? You are thinking that just because there is more surface area, the resistance will be lower?
This is DC not RF!
Well, ZERO is always ZERO. And the shortest Zero between two points wins.
That would be the Cable.
What about all the lap joints? Add some time to lap joints and you have a failure mode. Maybe not much resistance, but even 1 mo is more than a cable.
And when you really consider it... Since the CABLE is run in parallel with the air frame. BOTH paths are winners.

Sure it adds weight. But I will gladly add weight and eliminate all those possible failure points.
Gee, isn't it Piper that tried using ONLY the air frame as a ground and had all types of failures, not only to the wiring but to the starter as well, as it was drawing excessive current and had a higher current draw?
And then they got smart and started worrying about WEIGHT. So they went to ALUMINUM Cables. SMART! Like dropping a brick on your foot, smart! Those engineers must have gone to the same school as the engineers that used aluminum wire for house wiring... Remember those house fires? Which lead to higher insurance rates. Aluminum, which led to an AD on their planes, an AD to replace the aluminum wire with Copper.
Totally Shocked,
Barry
On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 2:09 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 11:40 AM 10/31/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rocketman1988" <Rocketman(at)etczone.com (Rocketman(at)etczone.com)>

I have an RV-10 that has a dedicated ground cable running from the aft battery to the firewall. This cable is connected to the firewall/panel (airframe) ground AND is connected near the battery, to the airframe.

My question is:

Would it be better to remove the cable in the aft near the battery and have only one connection to the airframe, the one at the firewall/panel?

Or is it ok to have two points of contact, one forward and one aft?

Resistance in the wire is higher than
thru the airframe . . . the only thing
it adds is weight. But it doesn't hurt
anything from an electrical perspective.



Bob . . .




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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:32 pm    Post subject: Question on Grounding Reply with quote

Hi Barry,

If you squeeze that aluminum airframe into an air-free cylinder, what gauge wire would be the same diameter? #0? #000? #0000000000? Give it some thought.

And if you think aluminum is a bad choice for an electrical conductor, you might want to move out of your house. (Check the triplex coming from the pole to the meter base. Might be worth checking the run from the meter to your panel, too.) Oh, you might want to stay away from any structure that uses power off the grid, too. (See those high tension lines running across the country?)

Aluminum got that bad rap due to improper mix of wire type & connector type. Look at the cheap wall switches & outlets that use the spring terminals in back for wire; they are marked for only copper. But if you look at the higher quality screw terminal versions, many (most?) are marked AL/CU; certified for either copper or aluminum wire. Guess which got used back in the day when aluminum got that bad rap.

Charlie

On 10/31/2018 7:08 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:

Quote:
BOB!


Are you on  DRUGS!


I got to here your explanation on this one!


You are really saying that the resistance through the air frame is LESS than that of a singe run of COPPER wire?
WIRE HELL!  It's CABLE, what, a #2 AWG.  
AHhhhh  let me guess???  You are thinking that just because there is more surface area, the resistance will be lower?
This is DC not RF!
Well, ZERO is always ZERO.  And the shortest Zero between two points wins.
That would be the Cable.
What about all the lap joints?  Add some time to lap joints and you have a failure mode.  Maybe not much resistance, but even 1 mo is more than a cable.
And when you really consider it...  Since the CABLE is run in parallel with the air frame.  BOTH paths are winners.  



Sure it adds weight.  But I will gladly add weight and eliminate all those possible failure points.
Gee, isn't it Piper that tried using ONLY the air frame as a ground and had all types of failures, not only to the wiring but to the starter as well, as it was drawing excessive current and had a higher current draw? 
And then they got smart and started worrying about WEIGHT.  So they went to ALUMINUM Cables.  SMART!  Like dropping a brick on your foot, smart!  Those engineers must have gone to the same school as the engineers that used aluminum wire for house wiring...  Remember those house fires?  Which lead to higher insurance rates.  Aluminum, which led to an AD on their planes, an AD to replace the aluminum wire with Copper.


Totally Shocked,
Barry


On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 2:09 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 11:40 AM 10/31/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rocketman1988" <Rocketman(at)etczone.com (Rocketman(at)etczone.com)>

I have an RV-10 that has a dedicated ground cable running from the aft battery to the firewall.  This cable is connected to the firewall/panel (airframe) ground AND is connected near the battery, to the airframe.

My question is:

Would it be better to remove the cable in the aft near the battery and have only one connection to the airframe, the one at the firewall/panel?

Or is it ok to have two points of contact, one forward and one aft?

 Resistance in the wire is higher than
 thru the airframe . . . the only thing
 it adds is weight. But it doesn't hurt
 anything from an electrical perspective.



  Bob . . .


Virus-free. www.avast.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]


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Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1548
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:10 pm    Post subject: Question on Grounding Reply with quote

Sorry Barry,
If anyone is on drugs it is you. I don't know of any TC aircraft that
does not use the aluminum skin or steel tube frame for the ground path.
Take Mooney for instance. The battery(ies) location is behind the
baggage compartment. Forward of the baggage compartment the airframe is
steel tubes, with aluminum covering attached with #4 sheet metal screws.
The ground path is battery to the aluminum monocoque where it is
mounted, connected to that steel tube frame, connected to the stainless
firewall. Cessna mounted the battery where needed for W&B, grounded to
the aluminum airframe.
Vans has a pretty good reputation for experimental kits. Their wiring
diagram shows battery grounded to the airframe. Of course the builder
can deviate if they wish. Piper's problems were aluminum CABLES and
connectors, not the airframe or method of grounding.
Kelly

On 10/31/2018 5:08 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
Quote:
BOB!

Are you on  DRUGS!




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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Question on Grounding Reply with quote

I agree with Bob

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:51 pm    Post subject: Question on Grounding Reply with quote

Me too

Quote:
On Oct 31, 2018, at 9:38 PM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com> wrote:



I agree with Bob

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:23 pm    Post subject: Question on Grounding Reply with quote

Bob is correct.  The airframe makes the ground wire superfluous.  This assumes that no corrosion develops between the fasteners and the various fuselage skins and parts.  After two or three decades, corrosion developed in the airframes, and a formal ground wire, of copper, became necessary for consistent engine starting.  On a new RV-type aircraft, that heavy #2 wire is just getting a free ride.  It is unnecessary, electrically, UNTIL the airframe corrodes to the point that excessive resistance is developed.  IF it corrodes at all.  Modern epoxy primers and finishes may prevent corrosion. That 50-year-old Piper sitting on the ramp in the rain likely corroded quite quickly, and became one of those airplanes that was "hard to start," and had other electrical problems, almost always caused by an inconsistent ground.
Technically, Bob is right.  Again.  Many words were devoted to this very subject in the Aeroelectric Connection book.
John B
On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 7:14 PM FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
BOB!
Are you on  DRUGS!
I got to here your explanation on this one!
You are really saying that the resistance through the air frame is LESS than that of a singe run of COPPER wire?
WIRE HELL!  It's CABLE, what, a #2 AWG.  
AHhhhh  let me guess???  You are thinking that just because there is more surface area, the resistance will be lower?
This is DC not RF!
Well, ZERO is always ZERO.  And the shortest Zero between two points wins.
That would be the Cable.
What about all the lap joints?  Add some time to lap joints and you have a failure mode.  Maybe not much resistance, but even 1 mo is more than a cable.
And when you really consider it...  Since the CABLE is run in parallel with the air frame.  BOTH paths are winners.  

Sure it adds weight.  But I will gladly add weight and eliminate all those possible failure points.
Gee, isn't it Piper that tried using ONLY the air frame as a ground and had all types of failures, not only to the wiring but to the starter as well, as it was drawing excessive current and had a higher current draw? 
And then they got smart and started worrying about WEIGHT.  So they went to ALUMINUM Cables.  SMART!  Like dropping a brick on your foot, smart!  Those engineers must have gone to the same school as the engineers that used aluminum wire for house wiring...  Remember those house fires?  Which lead to higher insurance rates.  Aluminum, which led to an AD on their planes, an AD to replace the aluminum wire with Copper.
Totally Shocked,
Barry
On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 2:09 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 11:40 AM 10/31/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rocketman1988" <Rocketman(at)etczone.com (Rocketman(at)etczone.com)>

I have an RV-10 that has a dedicated ground cable running from the aft battery to the firewall.  This cable is connected to the firewall/panel (airframe) ground AND is connected near the battery, to the airframe.

My question is:

Would it be better to remove the cable in the aft near the battery and have only one connection to the airframe, the one at the firewall/panel?

Or is it ok to have two points of contact, one forward and one aft?

 Resistance in the wire is higher than
 thru the airframe . . . the only thing
 it adds is weight. But it doesn't hurt
 anything from an electrical perspective.



  Bob . . .



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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1311
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:17 am    Post subject: Re: Question on Grounding Reply with quote

Quote:
Are you on DRUGS!

Violation of "AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines"
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.


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BARRY CHECK 6



Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 730

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:47 am    Post subject: Question on Grounding Reply with quote

Will do Joe,
Sorry and thank you.
Barry
On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 6:23 AM user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>


> Are you on  DRUGS!

Violation of "AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines"
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.

--------
Joe Gores




Read this topic online here:

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JohnInReno



Joined: 08 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:44 am    Post subject: Question on Grounding Reply with quote

Thank you, Joe.
On 11/1/2018 3:17 AM, user9253 wrote:
Quote:

> Are you on DRUGS!
Violation of "AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines"
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.

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Rocketman1988



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Question on Grounding Reply with quote

Sorry I asked...

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:54 am    Post subject: Re: Question on Grounding Reply with quote

Rocketman1988 wrote:
Sorry I asked...


And that is exactly why the rule is there.

We need the level of our discussion to be such that NO ONE is ever sorry they asked.

Every year or two someone shows up here and decides they need to kick over the chairs and pee in all the corners. Fortunately, it usually works itself out amicably, as I hope it has here.

No need to be sorry. Your question was not out of line. It's exactly what we're all here for. The sharing of questions and ideas, and hopefully some answers.

Don't let this scare you away.


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