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Z-12 questions

 
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lyn.robertson(at)gmail.co
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:23 am    Post subject: Z-12 questions Reply with quote

I am a long time lurker on this list and have learned a great deal. I am grateful to everyone who contributes. 
I am building an RV-14A and have pretty much decided to go with an IO-390 and SDS electronic ignition.  I plan to fly VFR, but don’t want to rule out IFR in the future. With that in mind, figure Z-12 in the Aero Electric Connection seems like a good fit.  It is elegant in its simplicity yet appears to be a very reliable design.  In my case, with no magnetos, a rock solid supply to the ignition modules is paramount. I don’t plan to have a vacuum system, so I’ll have a good spot for a second alternator. 
I have read that non-permanent magnet alternators require a battery for reliable operation. My question is, what happens if the battery fails or becomes disconnected?  Will the alternators continue to operate as long as they aren’t both powered down and back up?  Is a second, smaller battery required to ensure alternator operation?
Z-12 shows one EI and one mag but I am landing to have two EIs. Where would be the best place to supply power to a second EI?  Finally, I plan to have a glass panel and a small LED annunciator panel. Is there a work around for the incandescent bulb requirement of the B&C regulators?
Anyway, any advice about how to best provide uninterrupted power to the EIs is greatly appreciated. 
Thanks!
Lyn
Corvallis, Oregon


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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:03 am    Post subject: Z-12 questions Reply with quote

Quote:

I have read that non-permanent magnet alternators require a battery for reliable operation.

not necessarily so . . . but your ship's battery,
diligently maintained is the most reliable source
of power in the airplane.

Quote:
My question is, what happens if the battery fails or becomes disconnected?

There will be a variant of Z-12 published that takes
some cues from Z-13/8 where the second alternator is
drives the battery bus as opposed to the main bus.

Quote:
Will the alternators continue to operate as long as they aren’t both powered down and back up? Is a second, smaller battery required to ensure alternator operation?

The proposed new z-figure will offer all the advantages
of Z-12 (originally designed for TC aircraft) and
Z-13 combined.


Quote:
Z-12 shows one EI and one mag but I am landing to have two EIs. Where would be the best place to supply power to a second EI?

what brand/model ignition systems?

Quote:
Finally, I plan to have a glass panel and a small LED annunciator panel. Is there a work around for the incandescent bulb requirement of the B&C regulators?

Yes.

Plan for TWO LR3A-14 alternator controllers.
NOT one LR3 and one SB1


Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:14 am    Post subject: Z-12 questions Reply with quote

Thanks for the quick response!  I am currently planning to use dual SDS CPI EI. 

Lyn

On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 11:08 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
Quote:

I have read that non-permanent magnet alternators require a battery for reliable operation.

  not necessarily so . . . but your ship's battery,
  diligently maintained is the most reliable source
  of power in the airplane.

Quote:
 My question is, what happens if the battery fails or becomes disconnected?

  There will be a variant of Z-12 published that takes
  some cues from Z-13/8 where the second alternator is
  drives the battery bus as opposed to the main bus.

Quote:
  Will the alternators continue to operate as long as they aren’t both powered down and back up?  Is a second, smaller battery required to ensure alternator operation?

  The proposed new z-figure will offer all the advantages
  of Z-12 (originally designed for TC aircraft) and
  Z-13 combined.


Quote:
Z-12 shows one EI and one mag but I am landing to have two EIs. Where would be the best place to supply power to a second EI?

  what brand/model ignition systems?

Quote:
 Finally, I plan to have a glass panel and a small LED annunciator panel. Is there a work around for the incandescent bulb requirement of the B&C regulators?

  Yes.

  Plan for TWO LR3A-14 alternator controllers.
  NOT one LR3 and one SB1


  Bob . . .


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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1311
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:27 am    Post subject: Re: Z-12 questions Reply with quote

Quote:
I have read that non-permanent magnet alternators require a battery for reliable operation

Substitute "stable" for "reliable". Without a battery, the alternation output
could vary plus and minus one volt, in other words, unstable. But the
alternator will keep running without a battery until the alternator is shut off
or engine RPM is too low.
One electronic ignition could be connected to the battery bus.
The other EI could be connected to the Essential bus.
Yes, there is a work around for substituting a LED for incandescent.
Bob has drawn diagrams in the past. Basically a load resistor is
connected in parallel with the LED.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:34 am    Post subject: Z-12 questions Reply with quote

Quote:

what brand/model ignition systems?


Bob . . .


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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:07 pm    Post subject: Z-12 questions Reply with quote

On 10/14/2018 1:01 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

Quote:
Quote:

I have read that non-permanent magnet alternators require a battery for reliable operation.

not necessarily so . . . but your ship's battery,
diligently maintained is the most reliable source
of power in the airplane.

Quote:
My question is, what happens if the battery fails or becomes disconnected?

There will be a variant of Z-12 published that takes
some cues from Z-13/8 where the second alternator is
drives the battery bus as opposed to the main bus.

Quote:
  Will the alternators continue to operate as long as they aren’t both powered down and back up?  Is a second, smaller battery required to ensure alternator operation?

The proposed new z-figure will offer all the advantages
of Z-12 (originally designed for TC aircraft) and
Z-13 combined.


Quote:
Z-12 shows one EI and one mag but I am landing to have two EIs.Where would be the best place to supply power to a second EI?

what brand/model ignition systems?

Quote:
Finally, I plan to have a glass panel and a small LED annunciator panel. Is there a work around for the incandescent bulb requirement of the B&C regulators?

Yes.

Plan for TWO LR3A-14 alternator controllers.
NOT one LR3 and one SB1


Bob . . .
That's good news; I've tried to do something similar to my electrically dependent auto engine conversion that has two identical alternators. Looking forward to seeing it looks like with your more experienced eye on it. You can expect a lot more demand for this; more and more people are using either the SDS or other full-electronic engine controllers, even on traditional engines.

Charlie
Virus-free. www.avast.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]


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lyn.robertson(at)gmail.co
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:17 pm    Post subject: Z-12 questions Reply with quote

Hi Bob,

sorry, I thought I answered that...  the ignition system I plan to use is made by SDS (Simple Digital Systems) out of Canada. The Model is CPI (coil pack ignition) for 4 cylinder Lycomings. 
http://www.sdsefi.com/cpi.html 
Lyn

On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 12:40 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
Quote:

  what brand/model ignition systems?


  Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:47 pm    Post subject: Z-12 questions Reply with quote

At 04:14 PM 10/14/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Hi Bob,
sorry, I thought I answered that... the ignition system I plan to use is made by SDS (Simple Digital Systems) out of Canada. The Model is CPI (coil pack ignition) for 4 cylinder Lycomings.

http://www.sdsefi.com/cpi.html

Lyn

Okay, looked over the website but didn't
see any data on current consumption. Are
these numbers available to you?



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:56 pm    Post subject: Z-12 questions Reply with quote

I’ll see if I can get those numbers from Ross at SDS. Thanks. 

Lyn

On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 17:52 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 04:14 PM 10/14/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Hi Bob,
sorry, I thought I answered that... Â the ignition system I plan to use is made by SDS (Simple Digital Systems) out of Canada. The Model is CPI (coil pack ignition) for 4 cylinder Lycomings.Â

http://www.sdsefi.com/cpi.htmlÂ

Lyn

  Okay, looked over the website but didn't
  see any data on current consumption. Are
  these numbers available to you?



  Bob . . .


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lyn.robertson(at)gmail.co
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:10 pm    Post subject: Z-12 questions Reply with quote

I found this...

Low current draw/ long spark duration. 4 cylinder coil pack and CPI draw about 1.2 amps at 2500 rpm.

Lyn

On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 17:52 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 04:14 PM 10/14/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Hi Bob,
sorry, I thought I answered that... Â the ignition system I plan to use is made by SDS (Simple Digital Systems) out of Canada. The Model is CPI (coil pack ignition) for 4 cylinder Lycomings.Â

http://www.sdsefi.com/cpi.htmlÂ

Lyn

  Okay, looked over the website but didn't
  see any data on current consumption. Are
  these numbers available to you?



  Bob . . .


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rick(at)beebe.org
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:28 pm    Post subject: Z-12 questions Reply with quote

On 10/14/2018 2:01 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
Quote:
There will be a variant of Z-12 published that takes
some cues from Z-13/8 where the second alternator is
drives the battery bus as opposed to the main bus.

Quote:
  Will the alternators continue to operate as long as they aren’t both powered down and back up?  Is a second, smaller battery required to ensure alternator operation?

The proposed new z-figure will offer all the advantages
of Z-12 (originally designed for TC aircraft) and
Z-13 combined.

What's the timeframe on this being published?

--Rick


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