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LED Noise Filter

 
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cluros(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:52 am    Post subject: LED Noise Filter Reply with quote

As should have been expected, our ebay sourced PAR36 landing and taxi lights (4 in total) are producing varying levels of VHF noise. I see lots of old discussion about this on the list in 2013, but no products or diagrams for filters. I am planning on ordering the parts from digikey and making some filters unless there are some inexpensive filters available that are suitable for 18W LED lamps? 

The only circuit diagram I found online was
http://www.ptcaviation.com/wordpress/pi-filter/

Should I go with a simple 1 inductor 1 capacitor filter for each light or the more complicated version diagrammed above? Does it make any difference if we are planning on switching the power to 2 of the lights at 1 Hz?
Thank you,
Sebastien


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:18 am    Post subject: LED Noise Filter Reply with quote

Sebastien,

<< The only circuit diagram I found online was

http://www.ptcaviation.com/wordpress/pi-filter/



Should I go with a simple 1 inductor 1 capacitor filter for each light or the more complicated version diagrammed above >>

The extra cost of the pi filter is so small I would just use them without even trying a test of the simpler circuit.

One really small correction on the above diagram. C1 and C2 are to filter high frequency noise while C3 is for lower frequencies. The leads from the LED to the first high frequency capacitor should be as short as possible. Therefore, the positions of C2 and C3 on the diagram should be swapped.

Tom Kuffel

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BARRY CHECK 6



Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 730

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:32 pm    Post subject: LED Noise Filter Reply with quote

Tom:
It is correct the way it is.
The 1000 uF Cap is a brute force filter.  It filters the DC of the battery.  The 1 uF and they may even be too big (I'm thinking .01 uF) are to filter the noise to ground from the component that is creating the noise...  The LED Light.
BTW, the 1 Hz noise...  You will NOT hear it.  Way below human ear range.
Barry
On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 1:23 PM The Kuffels <kuffel(at)cyberport.net (kuffel(at)cyberport.net)> wrote:

Quote:
Sebastien,
 
<<  The only circuit diagram I found online was

http://www.ptcaviation.com/wordpress/pi-filter/



Should I go with a simple 1 inductor 1 capacitor filter for each light or the more complicated version diagrammed above  >>
 
The extra cost of the pi filter is so small I would just use them without even trying a test of the simpler circuit.
 
One really small correction on the above diagram.  C1 and C2 are to filter high frequency noise while C3 is for lower frequencies.  The leads from the LED to the first high frequency capacitor should be as short as possible.  Therefore, the positions of C2 and C3 on the diagram should be swapped.
 
Tom Kuffel

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:20 pm    Post subject: LED Noise Filter Reply with quote

Barry,

<< It is correct the way it is. >>

My "small" change does not change the schematic. In both cases C2 & C3 are parallel and on the LED side of the inductor. From a noise suppression viewpoint believe people should be aware that shorter leads are best for high frequencies. In a severe case I would consider soldering the high frequency capacitor at the LED leads.

<< The 1 uF and they may even be too big (I'm thinking .01 uF) are to filter the noise to ground from the component that is creating the noise... >>


Believe that is what I said. Agree the 1 uF value seems too high. Personally would use no more than 0.1 uF and thought 0.01 uF would be the place to start. But for all I know, the circuit designer experimented and found this type of 1 uF capacitor to work best with this LED. So I limited my comment to the teaching point that the length of leads carrying high frequency noise should be as short as reasonable.

Tom

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:04 am    Post subject: LED Noise Filter Reply with quote

At 11:19 PM 9/28/2018, you wrote:
Quote:

Barry,

<< It is correct the way it is. >>

My "small" change does not change the schematic. In both cases C2 & C3 are parallel and on the LED side of the inductor. From a noise suppression viewpoint believe people should be aware that shorter leads are best for high frequencies. In a severe case I would consider soldering the high frequency capacitor at the LED leads.

What is the nature of the noise being mitigated?
Who is the victim? How does it manifest in operation
of the victim?

Noise comes in a constellation of flavors, sources,
intensity and remedies. The filters I built for
the LED fixtures were specific to an observed
interference in the VHF Comm and VOR
audio when the LED position lights powered with
the constant current generators were turned on.

Without knowing more details as to this
particular recipe, any cut-n-try endeavors
are simply experiments which may . . . or may
not fix the observed problem.

As a general rule, electrolytic capacitors
are of no noise suppression value. Other
reactive components (capacitors, inductors)
need to be scaled for effective attenuation
at the frequency(ies) of interest.

For the purposes of this particular discussion,
which of the ship's systems are complaining about
operation of the LED assembly?



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:53 pm    Post subject: LED Noise Filter Reply with quote

VHF Radio. Basically background static. On some of the lights it's barely noticeable and you have to listen carefully to hear it, on at least one light it creates enough VHF noise to break squelch on the radio and creates a very noticeable amount of static.

On Sat, Sep 29, 2018, 10:08 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 11:19 PM 9/28/2018, you wrote:
Quote:

Barry,
 
 <<  It is correct the way it is.  >>
 
My "small" change does not change the schematic.  In both cases C2 & C3 are parallel and on the LED side of the inductor.  From a noise suppression viewpoint believe people should be aware that shorter leads are best for high frequencies.  In a severe case I would consider soldering the high frequency capacitor at the LED leads.
 What is the nature of the noise being mitigated?
 Who is the victim? How does it manifest in operation
 of the victim?

 Noise comes in a constellation of flavors, sources,
 intensity and remedies. The filters I built for
 the LED fixtures were specific to an observed
 interference in the VHF Comm and VOR
 audio when the LED position lights powered with
 the constant current generators were turned on.

 Without knowing more details as to this
 particular recipe, any cut-n-try endeavors
 are simply experiments which may . . . or may
 not fix the observed problem.

 As a general rule, electrolytic capacitors
 are of no noise suppression value. Other
 reactive components (capacitors, inductors)
 need to be scaled for effective attenuation
 at the frequency(ies) of interest.

 For the purposes of this particular discussion,
 which of the ship's systems are complaining about
 operation of the LED assembly?



  Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:39 pm    Post subject: LED Noise Filter Reply with quote

At 03:52 PM 9/29/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
VHF Radio. Basically background static. On some of the lights it's barely noticeable and you have to listen carefully to hear it, on at least one light it creates enough VHF noise to break squelch on the radio and creates a very noticeable amount of static.

Okay, and what is the LED product we're talking about?
Have you had any conversation wthe the manufacturer?



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:13 pm    Post subject: LED Noise Filter Reply with quote

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KJ94Q1K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

If they were the +$300 ones made for aircraft I would call the manufacturer but these are 15% of the price of the aviation ones so I understand why the builder chose them. If we can fix this for $20 worth of parts it makes sense to me.
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 8:43 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 03:52 PM 9/29/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
VHF Radio. Basically background static. On some of the lights it's barely noticeable and you have to listen carefully to hear it, on at least one light it creates enough VHF noise to break squelch on the radio and creates a very noticeable amount of static.

  Okay, and what is the LED product we're talking about?
  Have you had any conversation wthe the manufacturer?



  Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:31 am    Post subject: LED Noise Filter Reply with quote

Having been through this one (cheap chinese landing light)...
I bought an USD20 light which completely blocked all comms within 20 feet.
I bought another one, American designed made in China for USD30 - and no noise at all.  I can dig out the manufacturer if youre interested.  
Will
William Daniell

LONGPORT
+57 310 295 0744
On Sun, Sep 30, 2018 at 12:16 AM Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KJ94Q1K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

If they were the +$300 ones made for aircraft I would call the manufacturer but these are 15% of the price of the aviation ones so I understand why the builder chose them. If we can fix this for $20 worth of parts it makes sense to me.
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 8:43 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 03:52 PM 9/29/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
VHF Radio. Basically background static. On some of the lights it's barely noticeable and you have to listen carefully to hear it, on at least one light it creates enough VHF noise to break squelch on the radio and creates a very noticeable amount of static.

  Okay, and what is the LED product we're talking about?
  Have you had any conversation wthe the manufacturer?



  Bob . . .



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:57 am    Post subject: LED Noise Filter Reply with quote

Certainly Will. We already have 2 batches of these trying to randomly find some that are better. No noise at all sounds ideal Smile.

On Sun, Sep 30, 2018, 04:35 William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
Having been through this one (cheap chinese landing light)...
I bought an USD20 light which completely blocked all comms within 20 feet.
I bought another one, American designed made in China for USD30 - and no noise at all.  I can dig out the manufacturer if youre interested.  
Will
William Daniell

LONGPORT
+57 310 295 0744
On Sun, Sep 30, 2018 at 12:16 AM Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KJ94Q1K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

If they were the +$300 ones made for aircraft I would call the manufacturer but these are 15% of the price of the aviation ones so I understand why the builder chose them. If we can fix this for $20 worth of parts it makes sense to me.
On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 8:43 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 03:52 PM 9/29/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
VHF Radio. Basically background static. On some of the lights it's barely noticeable and you have to listen carefully to hear it, on at least one light it creates enough VHF noise to break squelch on the radio and creates a very noticeable amount of static.

  Okay, and what is the LED product we're talking about?
  Have you had any conversation wthe the manufacturer?



  Bob . . .




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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:55 am    Post subject: LED Noise Filter Reply with quote

At 11:12 PM 9/29/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KJ94Q1K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

If they were the +$300 ones made for aircraft I would call the manufacturer but these are 15% of the price of the aviation ones so I understand why the builder chose them. If we can fix this for $20 worth of parts it makes sense to me.

Sure . . . didn't know which product we're
discussing . . . wanted to know if we
were talking a COTS product or and
entrepreneurial offering to the OBAM
aircraft community.

The components cited in the DIY article for
filtering this device are problematic. Since
our spectrum of interest is VHF, electrolytic
capacitors are definitely contra-indicated.
The inductor cited has some characteristics
that are also problematic

[img]cid:.0[/img]

Since this is a 18w device powered by what
has to be a constant current generator with the
10 to 30v input range, current draw at 14
volts can be estimated as (18w/14v)/0.8
estimated efficiency equals 1.6 amps.

While the 'rated' current for the device
is 1.6A (meaning it won't burn up) the
'saturation' value for the device is
1.4 amps . . . meaning that its inductance
goes to zero at or above 1.4A.

I have no doubt that the design offered in
the DIY article had some beneficial effects
but it was not optimized for the task. There
are dozens of more suited devices of this
is one example:

https://tinyurl.com/y8nrz56k

Rated at 5A continuous, it has a nice
impedance peak at 100 Mhz (our spectrum
of interest). Now we want to team this
with capacitors that are similarly
suited to VHF energy management. A
capacitor of 1000 picofarads has an
impedance on the order of 1.6 ohms
at 100 MHz. An exemplar component . . .

https://tinyurl.com/yd3bh98e

These are candidates for a noise abatement
experiment. Suggest the pi filter configuration
with filter mount on shortest practical leads
at the back of the lamp assembly. Since this
device has a metal housing, suggest the black
power lead be grounded to that housing along with
the 'ground' leads of the two capacitors.

It may well be that the noise problem is a
combination of conducted and radiated so a
power line filter may not completely tame the
beast but this is a place to start.






Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:07 am    Post subject: LED Noise Filter Reply with quote

I was wondering about the radiated vs conducted thing but was thinking since it doesn't have any properties of an antenna any radiated noise must radiate from the wires. Further thought makes me realize this makes no sense since the lights are physically connected to a big metal wing and in any case no antenna is necessary to create a VHF signal that travels 15'.
Since we have 2 lights per wing, I'm planning on making a little box with short leads and a plug for each light. See diagram below.
Bob I'm unsure what you mean by the black power lead being grounded. Unfortunately the aircraft wiring does not include a ground wire to the forest of tabs ground bus behind the panel and simply grounds to the wing. I think you mean I should run a wire from each housing to a common ground point with the ground on my diagram. Is this correct?
[img]cid:ii_jmp6am4p1[/img]

On Sun, Sep 30, 2018, 09:00 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 11:12 PM 9/29/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KJ94Q1K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

If they were the +$300 ones made for aircraft I would call the manufacturer but these are 15% of the price of the aviation ones so I understand why the builder chose them. If we can fix this for $20 worth of parts it makes sense to me.

  Sure . . . didn't know which product we're
  discussing . . . wanted to know if we
  were talking a COTS product or and
  entrepreneurial offering to the OBAM
  aircraft community.

  The components cited in the DIY article for
  filtering this device are problematic. Since
  our spectrum of interest is VHF, electrolytic
  capacitors are definitely contra-indicated.
  The inductor cited has some characteristics
  that are also problematic



  Since this is a 18w device powered by what
  has to be a constant current generator with the
  10 to 30v input range, current draw at 14
  volts can be estimated as (18w/14v)/0.8
  estimated efficiency equals 1.6 amps.

  While the 'rated' current for the device
  is 1.6A (meaning it won't burn up) the
  'saturation' value for the device is
  1.4 amps . . . meaning that its inductance
  goes to zero at or above 1.4A.

  I have no doubt that the design offered in
  the DIY article had some beneficial effects
  but it was not optimized for the task. There
  are dozens of more suited devices of this
  is one example:

https://tinyurl.com/y8nrz56k

  Rated at 5A continuous, it has a nice
  impedance peak at 100 Mhz (our spectrum
  of interest). Now we want to team this
  with capacitors that are similarly
  suited to VHF energy management. A
  capacitor of 1000 picofarads has an
  impedance on the order of 1.6 ohms
  at 100 MHz. An exemplar component . . .

https://tinyurl.com/yd3bh98e

  These are candidates for a noise abatement
  experiment.  Suggest the pi filter configuration
  with filter mount on shortest practical leads
  at the back of the lamp assembly. Since this
  device has a metal housing, suggest the black
  power lead be grounded to that housing along with
  the 'ground' leads of the two capacitors.

  It may well be that the noise problem is a
  combination of conducted and radiated so a
  power line filter may not completely tame the
  beast but this is a place to start.






  Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:13 pm    Post subject: LED Noise Filter Reply with quote

I've had excellent results using these devices. N167EZ uses them for marker, strobe, taxi and landing lights. I've inspected them with an oscilloscope. Nothing but DC. And, I've never heard radio inteference from them. Especially of interest, I built the strobe by using an electronic automotive turn signal flasher to alternate between two 30W supplies, that each drive an array of three 10W LEDs. While testing them out in the sunlight, the easiest way to know they were working (a 601XL is hard to turn around and look back in) was to take my headset off and listen for the flasher's clacking.

http://www.mpja.com/LED-Driver-30W-Output-12-24VDC-Input/productinfo/31559+PS/

On Sunday, September 30, 2018 9:58 AM, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> wrote:



Certainly Will. We already have 2 batches of these trying to randomly find some that are better. No noise at all sounds ideal Smile.On Sun, Sep 30, 2018, 04:35 William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Having been through this one (cheap chinese landing light)...
I bought an USD20 light which completely blocked all comms within 20 feet.
I bought another one, American designed made in China for USD30 - and no noise at all. I can dig out the manufacturer if youre interested.
Will
William Daniell
LONGPORT+57 310 295 0744


On Sun, Sep 30, 2018 at 12:16 AM Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KJ94Q1K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

If they were the +$300 ones made for aircraft I would call the manufacturer but these are 15% of the price of the aviation ones so I understand why the builder chose them. If we can fix this for $20 worth of parts it makes sense to me.

On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 8:43 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 03:52 PM 9/29/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
VHF Radio. Basically background static. On some of the lights it's barely noticeable and you have to listen carefully to hear it, on at least one light it creates enough VHF noise to break squelch on the radio and creates a very noticeable amount of static.
Okay, and what is the LED product we're talking about? Have you had any conversation wthe the manufacturer? Bob . . .





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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:48 am    Post subject: LED Noise Filter Reply with quote

for anyone that's interested this one worked for me.  I have all Dynon instruments and comms
Amazon:  "Abrams T3-W Led Grille Emergency Vehicle Warning Strobe Lights - White"

William Daniell

LONGPORT
+57 310 295 0744

On Sun, Sep 30, 2018 at 7:18 PM Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net (echristley(at)att.net)> wrote:

Quote:
I've had excellent results using these devices.  N167EZ uses them for marker, strobe, taxi and landing lights.  I've inspected them with an oscilloscope.  Nothing but DC.  And, I've never heard radio inteference from them.   Especially of interest, I built the strobe by using an electronic  automotive turn signal flasher to alternate between two 30W supplies, that each drive an array of three 10W LEDs.  While testing them out in the sunlight, the easiest way to know they were working (a 601XL is hard to turn around and look back in) was to take my headset off and listen for the flasher's clacking.

http://www.mpja.com/LED-Driver-30W-Output-12-24VDC-Input/productinfo/31559+PS/

On Sunday, September 30, 2018 9:58 AM, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



Certainly Will. We already have 2 batches of these trying to randomly find some that are better. No noise at all sounds ideal Smile.On Sun, Sep 30, 2018, 04:35 William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Having been through this one (cheap chinese landing light)...
I bought an USD20 light which completely blocked all comms within 20 feet.
I bought another one, American designed made in China for USD30 - and no noise at all.  I can dig out the manufacturer if youre interested.  
Will
William Daniell
LONGPORT+57 310 295 0744


On Sun, Sep 30, 2018 at 12:16 AM Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KJ94Q1K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

If they were the +$300 ones made for aircraft I would call the manufacturer but these are 15% of the price of the aviation ones so I understand why the builder chose them. If we can fix this for $20 worth of parts it makes sense to me.

On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 8:43 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 03:52 PM 9/29/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
VHF Radio. Basically background static. On some of the lights it's barely noticeable and you have to listen carefully to hear it, on at least one light it creates enough VHF noise to break squelch on the radio and creates a very noticeable amount of static.
  Okay, and what is the LED product we're talking about?   Have you had any conversation wthe the manufacturer?   Bob . . .









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