Matronics Email Lists Forum Index Matronics Email Lists
BBS Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
 
 Get Email Distribution Too!Get Email Distribution Too!    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
roughleg(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:12 pm    Post subject: Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator Reply with quote

We have a Jabiru 3300 on a Zenith STOL CH750 and I'm trying to understand the inner workings of the voltage regulator that Jabiru supplies. I asked on the Jabiru forum but didn't get any useful insight. Does anyone on this list happen to know what goes on inside that unit?
One of my puzzles is: on Jabiru's wiring diagram it show which pins on the regulator's connector go where, and it lists, among others, these two:
"RED to battery + via relay" - presumably this is the output to charge the battery and power the plane's electrical system
"YELLOW voltage control - J160C to main bus, other models to battery +"  - is this a feedback signal from the battery into the regulator's sense circuit? if so, that might explain why not via relay. And why would it connect to a different place in one model of airplane (the J160C is a Jabiru certified plane) than in others?
If anyone cares to look, the diagram I mention is on page 269 of the Jabiru Aircraft Technical Manual JTM001-8


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:16 pm    Post subject: Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator Reply with quote

At 04:12 PM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
We have a Jabiru 3300 on a Zenith STOL CH750 and I'm trying to understand the inner workings of the voltage regulator that Jabiru supplies. I asked on the Jabiru forum but didn't get any useful insight. Does anyone on this list happen to know what goes on inside that unit?

One of my puzzles is: on Jabiru's wiring diagram it show which pins on the regulator's connector go where, and it lists, among others, these two:
"RED to battery + via relay" - presumably this is the output to charge the battery and power the plane's electrical system
"YELLOW voltage control - J160C to main bus, other models to battery +" - is this a feedback signal from the battery into the regulator's sense circuit? if so, that might explain why not via relay. And why would it connect to a different place in one model of airplane (the J160C is a Jabiru certified plane) than in others?

If anyone cares to look, the diagram I mention is on page 269 of the Jabiru Aircraft Technical Manual JTM001-8


I would guess that yellow is a sense lead. Exactly
WHY they do certain things in their architecture
is perhaps a down-under state secret.

I've had some email contact with the factory
about 10 years ago trying to resolve similar
questions but I've never been able to talk with
anyone who really understood the system. All
I could get out of them is "that's what the
diagrams have always shown . . . and YOU
are the only one complaining about them."

It's been my observation that people who design
engines should stay out of the electrical system
business . . . same for Rotax . . .


Bob . . .


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1293
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator Reply with quote

If the Jabiru voltage regulator functions the same as the Ducati regulator used on the Rotax, then the Jabiru
regulator yellow control wire functions both as a regulator enable and voltage sense.
I find the Jabiru wiring diagram difficult to read. It appears that the yellow control wire connects
to the left side of the 60 amp inline fuse. But that wire is not marked on the diagram.
If it were my plane, I would wire it according to Bob's Z-16,
except substitute a 30 amp inline fuse in place of the 16awg fuselink.


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_________________
Joe Gores
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
roughleg(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:30 pm    Post subject: Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator Reply with quote

Thanks for that Joe. Now that I have taken a look at Z-16 I like it for a number of reasons. One of them is that the alternator relay is on the alternator (it's called dynamo on the figure) output into the voltage regulator. I had been imagining putting the relay in the regulator's output. I'm guessing that the regulator would be happier with no input than full input and open circuit output. But since we don't know what's inside that thing...

On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 8:42 PM user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

If the Jabiru voltage regulator functions the same as the Ducati regulator used on the Rotax, then the Jabiru
regulator yellow control wire functions both as a regulator enable and voltage sense.
  I find the Jabiru wiring diagram difficult to read.  It appears that the yellow control wire connects
to the left side of the 60 amp inline fuse.  But that wire is not marked on the diagram.
  If it were my plane, I would wire it according to Bob's Z-16,
except substitute a 30 amp inline fuse in place of the 16awg fuselink.

--------
Joe Gores




- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
nuckollsr



Joined: 24 Mar 2009
Posts: 82
Location: Medicine Lodge, KS

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:10 am    Post subject: Re: Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator Reply with quote

I think it almost a certainty that when looking INTO the power output lead of the rectifier/regulator, one sees only a pair of cathodes for two legs of the controlled bridge rectifier. When this lead is connected to the battery with the control lead open, one should see essentially zero current (picoamps of rectifier leakage at most).

So alternator ON/OFF control is best managed in the AC power input leads as depicted in Z-16 and others.


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
jimkale(at)roadrunner.com
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:06 am    Post subject: Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator Reply with quote

I am helping a friend install a Jabiru 2200 on an Excalibur light sport airplane that has a much simpler electrical system than you are building. I checked the Jabiru manual and found that they are using a permanent magnet alternator with single phase AC output. The regulator that Jabiru supplied with the engine is the type that puts a full load on the alternator at all times then rectifies the output and regulates it down to 14 volts.

So the alternator is always producing full power and the rather robust regulator with the fins dissipates the power that the aircraft is not using as heat. That is why it is so robust with fins on it. This is a much different situation than an excited 3 phase AC alternator used with a voltage regulator, either internal or external. The Jabiru I am installing has a 200 watt output which calculates to about 15 amps. It is a simple system that works great in airplanes with simple electrical systems which only needs power for a radio, intercom, lights, etc.
It it is connected to more complex airplanes that have primary and secondary busses, etc. You must end up experimenting to try to determine just how the regulator works, and how you can try to configure it to fit your more complex requirements. In my opinion you are going out on a limb and risking a failure caused by trying to use a simple system for a more complex requirement. I have no idea if an external alternator could be fitted to the Jabiru engine or not. My recommendation is to keep your electrical system very simple, or find a way to install a more powerful alternator with more conventional alternator controls.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 23, 2018, at 4:12 PM, Pat Little <roughleg(at)gmail.com (roughleg(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
We have a Jabiru 3300 on a Zenith STOL CH750 and I'm trying to understand the inner workings of the voltage regulator that Jabiru supplies. I asked on the Jabiru forum but didn't get any useful insight. Does anyone on this list happen to know what goes on inside that unit?
One of my puzzles is: on Jabiru's wiring diagram it show which pins on the regulator's connector go where, and it lists, among others, these two:
"RED to battery + via relay" - presumably this is the output to charge the battery and power the plane's electrical system
"YELLOW voltage control - J160C to main bus, other models to battery +" - is this a feedback signal from the battery into the regulator's sense circuit? if so, that might explain why not via relay. And why would it connect to a different place in one model of airplane (the J160C is a Jabiru certified plane) than in others?
If anyone cares to look, the diagram I mention is on page 269 of the Jabiru Aircraft Technical Manual JTM001-8




- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Back to top
user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1293
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator Reply with quote

I would like to read about the Jabiru 2200 regulator. Do you have a link to the literature? Thanks
Quote:
The regulator that Jabiru supplied with the engine is the type that puts a full load on the alternator at all times


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

_________________
Joe Gores
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:02 pm    Post subject: Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator Reply with quote

At 12:43 PM 8/24/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
I am helping a friend install a Jabiru 2200 on an Excalibur light sport airplane that has a much simpler electrical system than you are building. I checked the Jabiru manual and found that they are using a permanent magnet alternator with single phase AC output. The regulator that Jabiru supplied with the engine is the type that puts a full load on the alternator at all times then rectifies the output and regulates it down to 14 volts.

This 'shunt regulation' philosophy for small engine
PM alternators was indeed popular and practical when
mini-bike builders wanted to add batteries and headlights
to their products. Total system energy requirements were on the
order of 10 watts or less . . . not unlike that produced
by those little generators we used to put on our bicycles.

The had to be designed to tolerate continuous short
circuit loading. I.e. wound with smaller, high resistance
wire and well heat-sinked to dissipate the energy developed
when a battery became fully charged and the shunting device,
usually an SCR, was triggering early in every half cycle of
the dynamo's output. Simple and sorta worked purddy gud . . .

[img]cid:.0[/img]

Then came snowmobiles, ski-doos, etc, etc and the batteries
got bigger, lights more powerful, starters were added, etc.
etc. But the common vernacular for the ac dynamo on the engine
was a 'lighting coil'.

But as the system energy requirements went up, output
demands from the dynamo and its companion regulator did
too. A fundamental concern for any solid state power management
is what to do with and about wasted heat. You can do it
with a combination of two techniques: (1) reduce the heat
dissipated in the circuit components and (2) add heat sinking
which may included fins to dissipate energy into convection
or forced air.

(1) is where you start from.

[img]cid:.1[/img]

The legacy, gated full wave rectifier shown above is
typical of most if not ALL rectifier regulators of 20
or so years ago. Some people have mistakenly called this
a 'shunt' regulator because of the totem-pole of rectifier-
SCR strings across the alternator winding. It may LOOK
like some kind of 'shunt' circuit but in fact, those
four devices in the bridge are only turned ON in pairs
and in series connection with the alternator winding.

The 'transistors' you see above are in fact 4-layer,
triacs or scrs. They are the major heat dissipating
devices in the circuit. Some manufacturer's have
eliminated the 4-layer devices in favor of MOSFET
transistors which typically have perhaps 5% of the
dissipation of the SCR. These modern R/R's run much
cooler and are more efficient.

Once you've refined your circuit components, you then
PACKAGE the thing to manage heat that 20A+ components
invariably throw off.

But these are still gated, SERIES, full wave bridge rectifiers.
Nobody would build a true SHUNT style regulator reminiscent
of your daddy's moped. It's inefficient, wasteful, difficult
to manage thermally and best yet . . . completely unnecessary.
If someone claims to HAVE a shunt style rectifier/regulator,
ask them to put a snap-on ammeter on one of the alternator
leads while system loads are minimized and the battery is
charged.

If it's a shunt style regulator, current flowing in that
loop with minimized alternator loads would be high. I'll
offer to give $100 to anyone who can send me a SHUNT
style R/R rated at 10A or more to test on my stand along
with identification of where it came from and on what
vehicle it is used. I'll test here, write a report and
return the R/R to the owner with or without the $100
as dictated by test results.

I'll bet the Jabiru 3300 R/R is no different electronically
than the Ducatti regulators supplied with Rotax engines all
these years.



Bob . . .


- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List



aeb3452.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  108.5 KB
 Viewed:  312 Time(s)

aeb3452.jpg



aeb3471.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  106.87 KB
 Viewed:  312 Time(s)

aeb3471.jpg


Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> AeroElectric-List All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group