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glastar(at)gmx.net
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:30 am    Post subject: elt antenna Reply with quote

Hello Ken and Art,

I can confirm the 406 does work, I had a friend of mine where the plane flipped over on an emergency landing
[img]cid:part1.7A666E52.5E6642DB(at)gmx.net[/img]

His antenna was on the top before the fin
[img]cid:part2.AAB1ED83.50E780AC(at)gmx.net[/img]

and even being inverted and antenna partly damaged the SAR helicopter was on site in a very short time!

Cheers Werner

On 17.08.2018 00:16, Ken Ryan wrote:

Quote:
Art, your thinking is correct. To say modern 406 ELTs are no good is a statement that cannot be rationally justified.




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bobnoffs



Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 81
Location: northern wi.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:59 am    Post subject: elt antenna Reply with quote

thanks bob and everyone. i think everyone can say they learned something.

 for sure i will raise my elt so the base is at window level. my mounting area is easily accessable and changes to the bracket   are not difficult. i think i will mount the antenna and contact the proper authorities before a test and see what it does!

 thanks again.

 bob noffs
On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 4:40 AM Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)> wrote:

Quote:
Hello Ken and Art,

I can confirm the 406 does work, I had a friend of mine where the plane flipped over on an emergency landing
[img]cid:part1.7A666E52.5E6642DB(at)gmx.net[/img]

His antenna was on the top before the fin
[img]cid:part2.AAB1ED83.50E780AC(at)gmx.net[/img]

and even being inverted and antenna partly damaged the SAR helicopter was on site in a very short time!

Cheers Werner

On 17.08.2018 00:16, Ken Ryan wrote:

Quote:
Art, your thinking is correct. To say modern 406 ELTs are no good is a statement that cannot be rationally justified.






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Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:33 am    Post subject: elt antenna Reply with quote

The debate is somewhat charged in the US because you have 121.5 ELTs
that are still legal for install, as well as the 406 ELTs. The antenna
needs are different. IMHO there is too much focus on aircraft either
remaining upright, or flipping on their backs. While those may be the
majority of cases. I've seen enough wrecks where it isn't the
case...such as stall spin accidents, CFIT accidents. So position that is
protected from external damage has some value, but is hard to predict.
406 ELTs more likely need brand specific antennas. A few do have built
in GPS, but tend to be very pricey. Far more have ability to have a GPS
connected. The differences in what is needed for a digital 406 burst
certainly are not optimal with a VHF com antenna. I don't expect a very
high percentage of 406 ELTs with embedded GPS, because AFAIK they all
have 4 figure price tags.
Only the builder can evaluate the type of flying planned and the optimal
location on the airframe. All evaluations have to consider that we
cannot predict the orientation of the airframe after the crash. I've
even seen one where the airframe was intact, occupants survived, while
the airframe was embedded at about a 45 degree angle into fairly hard
dirt on airport.

On 8/17/2018 4:58 AM, bob noffs wrote:
Quote:
thanks bob and everyone. i think everyone can say they learned something.
 for sure i will raise my elt so the base is at window level. my
mounting area is easily accessable and changes to the bracket   are not
difficult. i think i will mount the antenna and contact the proper
authorities before a test and see what it does!
 thanks again.
 bob noffs

On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 4:40 AM Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net
<mailto:glastar(at)gmx.net>> wrote:

Hello Ken and Art,

I can confirm the 406 does work, I had a friend of mine where the
plane flipped over on an emergency landing


His antenna was on the top before the fin



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cluros(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:04 am    Post subject: elt antenna Reply with quote

Our Rocket snapped the ELT antenna off at the base when it flipped upside down after catching a fencepost. JRCC called the airport manager within five minutes with the aircraft registration and position. Kinda spooky.

On Aug 17, 2018 00:22, "Stuart Hutchison" <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au (stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au)> wrote:
Quote:
Barry,

For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop … the 400lb engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that.  However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical stab where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over.  I have reviewed numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty good chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage.  Even an inverted whip is correctly oriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the horizon) satellites to receive from a ‘donut’ radiation pattern.  And, no matter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, the position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in near real time.  The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W and randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of being received and relayed by at least one satellite.
I don’t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on this forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of view, I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time and money.  Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the Australian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR Officer and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the value of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded GPS.  Crashed aircraft are incredibly difficult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles a minute.  Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for example, you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan can easily delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival time.  I can tell you from first hand experience in the RCC that it is very distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few hours.  It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly where to look.  In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash.  A small piece of media misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was overlooked.  The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the crash before succumbing to exposure.
It’s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as aviators we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared.  The mandate is there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly, register and maintain it … it’s definitely not worth risking your life to neglect the ELT / PLB.  And, carry a jumper Smile  The priorities of survival are Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fires etc), Water, Food … in that order.  We can survive for three days without water and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that?  I’d rather get outta there.
Kind regards, Stu

Quote:
On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier between the ELT antenna and the sky. 
Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab wing tips being the best location.
Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless.  They are usually in a fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery.  They are an FAA Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locating Transmitter).
Choose wisely Grasshopper,
Barry



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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:11 am    Post subject: elt antenna Reply with quote

At 08:32 AM 8/17/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>

The debate is somewhat charged in the US because you have 121.5 ELTs that are still legal for install, as well as the 406 ELTs. The antenna needs are different. IMHO there is too much focus on aircraft either remaining upright, or flipping on their backs. While those may be the majority of cases. I've seen enough wrecks where it isn't the case...such as stall spin accidents, CFIT accidents. So position that is protected from external damage has some value, but is hard to predict.

A study of crash outcomes conducted some years
back concluded that ELTs mounted in the tail with
antennas forward of the vertical fin had a high
order probability of desired performance after
a crash.

Combined in the new digital geo-location features,
the 406Mhz GPS enhanced locator will be orders
of magnitude more successful than any 121.5/243
system.

The locator beacon as originally conceived and
placed into service was never envisioned for
general aviation application . . . it was a military
tool that served it's purpose well when the
theater of operations was limited and the
first responders were likely to be well equipped
with direction finding equipment.

The 121.5/243 devices were shoe-horned into GA
by well meaning folks who had never had find
a radio needle in a national park sized haystack.
But in spite of limitations, it was better than
nothing.

The big problem was that the better-than-nothing
system became embedded into a bureaucratic morass
that made it very difficult to upgrade as new
technologies emerged. General aviation is the last
bastion of amplitude modulated radios on the surface
of the planet! Our radios could be lighter, cheaper
and much more suited to task had we been freed of
the AM albatross decades ago.

Mount the 406 system in the tail, put the antenna just forward
of the vertical fin and you'll enjoy a high probability
of performance success should the need arise.





Bob . . .


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kenryan



Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:37 am    Post subject: elt antenna Reply with quote

My ELT (Kannad Integra) can be removed from the aircraft while continuing to transmit.http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/kannad_integra.php

On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 7:12 AM Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
Our Rocket snapped the ELT antenna off at the base when it flipped upside down after catching a fencepost. JRCC called the airport manager within five minutes with the aircraft registration and position. Kinda spooky.

On Aug 17, 2018 00:22, "Stuart Hutchison" <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au (stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au)> wrote:
Quote:
Barry,

For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop … the 400lb engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that.  However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical stab where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over.  I have reviewed numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty good chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage.  Even an inverted whip is correctly oriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the horizon) satellites to receive from a ‘donut’ radiation pattern.  And, no matter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, the position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in near real time.  The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W and randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of being received and relayed by at least one satellite.
I don’t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on this forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of view, I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time and money.  Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the Australian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR Officer and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the value of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded GPS.  Crashed aircraft are incredibly difficult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles a minute.  Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for example, you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan can easily delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival time.  I can tell you from first hand experience in the RCC that it is very distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few hours.  It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly where to look.  In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash.  A small piece of media misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was overlooked.  The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the crash before succumbing to exposure.
It’s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as aviators we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared.  The mandate is there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly, register and maintain it … it’s definitely not worth risking your life to neglect the ELT / PLB.  And, carry a jumper Smile  The priorities of survival are Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fires etc), Water, Food … in that order.  We can survive for three days without water and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that?  I’d rather get outta there.
Kind regards, Stu

Quote:
On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier between the ELT antenna and the sky. 
Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab wing tips being the best location.
Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless.  They are usually in a fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery.  They are an FAA Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locating Transmitter).
Choose wisely Grasshopper,
Barry




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email(at)jaredyates.com
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:47 am    Post subject: elt antenna Reply with quote

Somebody should write a magazine article about all of this...

On August 17, 2018 12:44:22 Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
My ELT (Kannad Integra) can be removed from the aircraft while continuing to transmit.http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/kannad_integra.php

On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 7:12 AM Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
Our Rocket snapped the ELT antenna off at the base when it flipped upside down after catching a fencepost. JRCC called the airport manager within five minutes with the aircraft registration and position. Kinda spooky.

On Aug 17, 2018 00:22, "Stuart Hutchison" <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au (stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au)> wrote:
Quote:
Barry,

For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop … the 400lb engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that. However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical stab where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over. I have reviewed numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty good chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage. Even an inverted whip is correctly oriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the horizon) satellites to receive from a ‘donut’ radiation pattern. And, no matter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, the position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in near real time. The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W and randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of being received and relayed by at least one satellite.
I don’t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on this forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of view, I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time and money. Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the Australian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR Officer and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the value of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded GPS. Crashed aircraft are incredibly difficult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles a minute. Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for example, you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan can easily delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival time. I can tell you from first hand experience in the RCC that it is very distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few hours. It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly where to look. In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash. A small piece of media misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was overlooked. The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the crash before succumbing to exposure.
It’s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as aviators we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared. The mandate is there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly, register and maintain it … it’s definitely not worth risking your life to neglect the ELT / PLB. And, carry a jumper Smile The priorities of survival are Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fires etc), Water, Food … in that order. We can survive for three days without water and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that? I’d rather get outta there.
Kind regards, Stu

Quote:
On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier between the ELT antenna and the sky.
Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab wing tips being the best location.
Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless. They are usually in a fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery. They are an FAA Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locating Transmitter).
Choose wisely Grasshopper,
Barry





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BARRY CHECK 6



Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 730

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:54 am    Post subject: elt antenna Reply with quote

Hey Stu;-)
WOW!  A 400 Lb engine!!!
What engine?
What plane?
Is your tail dragger made with an aluminum fuselage?  If so then what about the airframe blocking the signal.  And as you said, the pattern would be at a low angle.
BUT!  No matter where you place the antenna there will always be a signal blockage issue.
HEY!  How about a Rocket Propelled ELT Unit?  Actually 2 units - One on the top one on the bottom and each unit will be rocket propelled to shoot out 100 Ft.  Instead of running a coax the entire unit shoots Up into a Tree, hooks on with treble fish hooks and transmit the signal.
I can guarantee the treble fish hook idea works!
Barry


On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 3:22 AM Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au (stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au)> wrote:

Quote:
Barry,

For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop … the 400lb engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that.  However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical stab where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over.  I have reviewed numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty good chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage.  Even an inverted whip is correctly oriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the horizon) satellites to receive from a ‘donut’ radiation pattern.  And, no matter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, the position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in near real time.  The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W and randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of being received and relayed by at least one satellite.
I don’t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on this forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of view, I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time and money.  Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the Australian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR Officer and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the value of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded GPS.  Crashed aircraft are incredibly difficult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles a minute.  Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for example, you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan can easily delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival time.  I can tell you from first hand experience in the RCC that it is very distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few hours.  It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly where to look.  In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash.  A small piece of media misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was overlooked.  The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the crash before succumbing to exposure.
It’s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as aviators we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared.  The mandate is there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly, register and maintain it … it’s definitely not worth risking your life to neglect the ELT / PLB.  And, carry a jumper Smile  The priorities of survival are Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fires etc), Water, Food … in that order.  We can survive for three days without water and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that?  I’d rather get outta there.
Kind regards, Stu

Quote:
On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier between the ELT antenna and the sky. 
Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab wing tips being the best location.
Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless.  They are usually in a fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery.  They are an FAA Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locating Transmitter).
Choose wisely Grasshopper,
Barry



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eschlanser



Joined: 08 Apr 2010
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: ELT antenna Reply with quote

Quote:
Also, as a former principle RAAF SAR Officer (USCG and USAF trained), I should add a few comments

I have a non-GPS Kannad Compact ELT connected to this antenna, which has frangible switches to activate automatically in a crash. I also have a GPS PLB, which I can activate if I am still alive or become separated from the aircraft (such as after ditching perhaps).

Regards, Stu


Stu,

Would you recommend a specific GPS PLB?

Thanks,
Eric


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:25 am    Post subject: elt antenna Reply with quote

Barry

Do you still expect that somebody takes you seriously? 😎
Cheers
Carlos

Enviado do meu iPhone

No dia 17/08/2018, às 13:48, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> escreveu:
Quote:


Hey Stu;-)
WOW! A 400 Lb engine!!!
What engine?
What plane?
Is your tail dragger made with an aluminum fuselage? If so then what about the airframe blocking the signal. And as you said, the pattern would be at a low angle.
BUT! No matter where you place the antenna there will always be a signal blockage issue.
HEY! How about a Rocket Propelled ELT Unit? Actually 2 units - One on the top one on the bottom and each unit will be rocket propelled to shoot out 100 Ft. Instead of running a coax the entire unit shoots Up into a Tree, hooks on with treble fish hooks and transmit the signal.
I can guarantee the treble fish hook idea works!
Barry


On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 3:22 AM Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au (stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au)> wrote:

Quote:
Barry,

For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop … the 400lb engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that. However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical stab where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over. I have reviewed numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty good chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage. Even an inverted whip is correctly oriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the horizon) satellites to receive from a ‘donut’ radiation pattern. And, no matter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, the position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in near real time. The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W and randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of being received and relayed by at least one satellite.
I don’t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on this forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of view, I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time and money. Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the Australian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR Officer and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the value of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded GPS. Crashed aircraft are incredibly difficult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles a minute. Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for example, you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan can easily delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival time. I can tell you from first hand experience in the RCC that it is very distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few hours. It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly where to look. In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash. A small piece of media misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was overlooked. The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the crash before succumbing to exposure.
It’s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as aviators we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared. The mandate is there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly, register and maintain it … it’s definitely not worth risking your life to neglect the ELT / PLB. And, carry a jumper Smile The priorities of survival are Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fires etc), Water, Food … in that order. We can survive for three days without water and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that? I’d rather get outta there.
Kind regards, Stu

Quote:
On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier between the ELT antenna and the sky.
Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab wing tips being the best location.
Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless. They are usually in a fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery. They are an FAA Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locating Transmitter).
Choose wisely Grasshopper,
Barry





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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:57 pm    Post subject: elt antenna Reply with quote

A Lycoming O-360 weighs about 260lbs; the IO-470F in the front of one of my airplanes weighs 399lbs, according to the manufacturer.

Quote:

Hey Stu;-)

WOW! A 400 Lb engine!!!
What engine?
What plane?

Is your tail dragger made with an aluminum fuselage? If so then what about the airframe blocking the signal. And as you said, the pattern would be at a low angle.
BUT! No matter where you place the antenna there will always be a signal blockage issue.

HEY! How about a Rocket Propelled ELT Unit? Actually 2 units - One on the top one on the bottom and each unit will be rocket propelled to shoot out 100 Ft. Instead of running a coax the entire unit shoots Up into a Tree, hooks on with treble fish hooks and transmit the signal.

I can guarantee the treble fish hook idea works!

Barry






On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 3:22 AM Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au> wrote:
Barry,

For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop … the 400lb engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that. However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical stab where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over. I have reviewed numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty good chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage. Even an inverted whip is correctly oriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the horizon) satellites to receive from a ‘donut’ radiation pattern. And, no matter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, the position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in near real time. The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W and randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of being received and relayed by at least one satellite.

I don’t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on this forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of view, I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time and money. Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the Australian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR Officer and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the value of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded GPS. Crashed aircraft are incredibly difficult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles a minute. Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for example, you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan can easily delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival time. I can tell you from first hand experience in the RCC that it is very distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few hours. It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly where to look. In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash. A small piece of media misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was overlooked. The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the crash before succumbing to exposure.

It’s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as aviators we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared. The mandate is there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly, register and maintain it … it’s definitely not worth risking your life to neglect the ELT / PLB. And, carry a jumper Smile The priorities of survival are Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fires etc), Water, Food … in that order. We can survive for three days without water and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that? I’d rather get outta there.

Kind regards, Stu

> On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
> So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
> When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier between the ELT antenna and the sky.
> Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
> And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab wing tips being the best location.
> Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless. They are usually in a fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery. They are an FAA Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
> Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locating Transmitter).
>
> Choose wisely Grasshopper,
>
> Barry



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:35 pm    Post subject: elt antenna Reply with quote

The angle valve IO360 is 40 lbs heavier yet. Over the years this list has been populated by a few loud mouthed " know it alls". If we wait a while the current one will vanish as well

On Aug 17, 2018 14:02, "Alec Myers" <alec(at)alecmyers.com (alec(at)alecmyers.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com (alec(at)alecmyers.com)>

A Lycoming O-360 weighs about 260lbs; the IO-470F in the front of one of my airplanes weighs 399lbs, according to the manufacturer.



>
> Hey Stu;-)
>
> WOW!  A 400 Lb engine!!!
> What engine?
> What plane?
>
> Is your tail dragger made with an aluminum fuselage?  If so then what about the airframe blocking the signal.  And as you said, the pattern would be at a low angle.
> BUT!  No matter where you place the antenna there will always be a signal blockage issue.
>
> HEY!  How about a Rocket Propelled ELT Unit?  Actually 2 units - One on the top one on the bottom and each unit will be rocket propelled to shoot out 100 Ft.  Instead of running a coax the entire unit shoots Up into a Tree, hooks on with treble fish hooks and transmit the signal.
>
> I can guarantee the treble fish hook idea works!
>
> Barry
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 3:22 AM Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au (stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au)> wrote:
> Barry,
>

> For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop … the 400lb engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that.  However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical stab where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over.  I have reviewed numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty good chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage.  Even an inverted whip is correctly oriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the horizon) satellites to receive from a ‘donut’ radiation pattern.  And, no matter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, the position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in near real time.  The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W and randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of being received and relayed by at !
 least one satellite.
>
> I don’t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on this forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of view, I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time and money.  Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the Australian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR Officer and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the value of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded GPS.  Crashed aircraft are incredibly difficult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles a minute.  Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for example, you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan can easily delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival time.  I can tell you from!
  first hand experience in the RCC that it is very distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few hours.  It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly where to look.  In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash.  A small piece of media misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was overlooked.  The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the crash before succumbing to exposure.
>
> It’s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as aviators we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared.  The mandate is there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly, register and maintain it … it’s definitely not worth risking your life to neglect the ELT / PLB.  And, carry a jumper Smile  The priorities of survival are Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fires etc), Water, Food … in that order.  We can survive for three days without water and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that?  I’d rather get outta there.
>
> Kind regards, Stu
>
>> On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
>>
>> Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
>> So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
>> When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier between the ELT antenna and the sky.
>> Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
>> And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab wing tips being the best location.
>> Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless.  They are usually in a fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery.  They are an FAA Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
>> Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locating Transmitter).
>>
>> Choose wisely Grasshopper,
>>
>> Barry
>



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:17 pm    Post subject: elt antenna Reply with quote

My thoughts as well.

On 8/17/2018 2:34 PM, don van santen wrote:

Quote:
The angle valve IO360 is 40 lbs heavier yet. Over the years this list has been populated by a few loud mouthed " know it alls". If we wait a while the current one will vanish as well




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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:58 pm    Post subject: elt antenna Reply with quote

Carlos:
What don't you believe?


Smile
Barry
Choose wisely Grasshopper


On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 2:29 PM Carlos Trigo <trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt (trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt)> wrote:

Quote:
Barry

Do you still expect that somebody takes you seriously? 😎
Cheers
Carlos 

Enviado do meu iPhone

No dia 17/08/2018, às 13:48, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> escreveu:
Quote:


Hey Stu;-)
WOW!  A 400 Lb engine!!!
What engine?
What plane?
Is your tail dragger made with an aluminum fuselage?  If so then what about the airframe blocking the signal.  And as you said, the pattern would be at a low angle.
BUT!  No matter where you place the antenna there will always be a signal blockage issue.
HEY!  How about a Rocket Propelled ELT Unit?  Actually 2 units - One on the top one on the bottom and each unit will be rocket propelled to shoot out 100 Ft.  Instead of running a coax the entire unit shoots Up into a Tree, hooks on with treble fish hooks and transmit the signal.
I can guarantee the treble fish hook idea works!
Barry


On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 3:22 AM Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au (stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au)> wrote:

Quote:
Barry,

For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop … the 400lb engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that.  However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical stab where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over.  I have reviewed numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty good chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage.  Even an inverted whip is correctly oriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the horizon) satellites to receive from a ‘donut’ radiation pattern.  And, no matter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, the position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in near real time.  The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W and randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of being received and relayed by at least one satellite.
I don’t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on this forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of view, I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time and money.  Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the Australian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR Officer and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the value of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded GPS.  Crashed aircraft are incredibly difficult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles a minute.  Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for example, you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan can easily delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival time.  I can tell you from first hand experience in the RCC that it is very distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few hours.  It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly where to look.  In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash.  A small piece of media misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was overlooked.  The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the crash before succumbing to exposure.
It’s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as aviators we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared.  The mandate is there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly, register and maintain it … it’s definitely not worth risking your life to neglect the ELT / PLB.  And, carry a jumper Smile  The priorities of survival are Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fires etc), Water, Food … in that order.  We can survive for three days without water and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that?  I’d rather get outta there.
Kind regards, Stu

Quote:
On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier between the ELT antenna and the sky. 
Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab wing tips being the best location.
Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless.  They are usually in a fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery.  They are an FAA Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locating Transmitter).
Choose wisely Grasshopper,
Barry







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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:36 pm    Post subject: ELT antenna Reply with quote

Hi Eric.

There are several good units on the market these days, provided you buy something that has been through the rigours of COSPAS/SARSAT certification. My PLB is a GME MT410G, which also has a strobe light, a Built-In-Test function and 7-year battery replacement interval. Its due for a battery replacement now, but I’ll wait until I'm ready to resume flying. McMurdo Fast Find and ACR ResQLink+ are other good options, among others. Which ever you choose, a Personal Locator Beacon (PLB) needs to 'come to hand’ readily at all times; so small size, lightweight, embedded GPS and a strobe are my top priorities.

Stobes (flash tube or LED are both OK - both configured to last at least 24hrs) are visible from very long distances at night, especially in remote or ocean areas devoid of other light sources, and especially from SAR aircraft equipped with Electro-Optic & Infra-Red (EOIR) sensors or individual Night Vision Devices (NVD). I could see illegal boat people using a Cyalume stick from a very long way off with NVD, so the value of a strobe shouldn’t be underestimated. Equally, one of the most effective search aids is a survival mirror. They’re cheap, small, lightweight and can be seen from about 20nm with the 'Mk1 eyeball' on a fine sunny day. Both are a great way to cue a SAR platform to your exact position from a long way off … accelerating rescue.

There are also other great products like SPOT, SpiderTracks and Garmin (was Delorme) InReach that typically use the Iridium network as personal or company tracking devices. These are not COSPAS/SARSAT approved alternatives to ELT/PLB, but do post position updates to the Internet at user-defined intervals and also offer routine and emergency SMS functions. While these are excellent products in their own right (and I will be using one when I cross the pond to NZ initially and hopefully Oshkosh at some point), they can potentially add middle-men to the SAR alerting equation. In an emergency I would turn all the lights on so to speak … ELT, PLB first, for near real time SAR alerting purposes, then keep family and would be rescuers aware of your health and wellbeing via SMS updates. Knowing help is on the way is also a huge survival motivator.

A humorous successful SAR situation I heard about was a guy in Canada who’s PLB GPS position kept changing. Turns out he was running flat out with two polar bears in chase. He covered 11nm by the time the chopper arrived Smile

Kind regards, Stu

Quote:
On 18 Aug 2018, at 03:59, eschlanser <eschlanser(at)yahoo.com> wrote:




> Also, as a former principle RAAF SAR Officer (USCG and USAF trained), I should add a few comments
>
> I have a non-GPS Kannad Compact ELT connected to this antenna, which has frangible switches to activate automatically in a crash. I also have a GPS PLB, which I can activate if I am still alive or become separated from the aircraft (such as after ditching perhaps).
>
> Regards, Stu


Stu,

Would you recommend a specific GPS PLB?

Thanks,
Eric




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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:05 pm    Post subject: elt antenna Reply with quote

Yep.
IO-540-C4B5 (260hp) narrow deck parallel valve, the lightest of the Lycoming 6-cylinder options at 404lbs stock. Angle value Lycoming alternatives have a heavier crankcase and crankshaft to handle a higher compression ratio, but make more power (300hp+)F1 Rocket
Ally monocoque design, just like an RV.
There is also a long hub, 80lb, three-blade scimitar prop hanging off the front trying to tip me over Sad

Upright the signal is essentially unencumbered. Inverted the antenna can ‘see’ out to the horizon, about 120 degrees both left and right of the fuselage as well as upwards to some degree, depending on the post-crash state.

Unlike a GPS receiver needing unencumbered transmission paths to receive a bunch of very weak signals from GNSS satellites in a fixable geometry; an ELT punches out a 5W data burst that only needs to be received once, by one satellite, to do its job. I think it will work just fine.

Stu

Quote:
On 18 Aug 2018, at 03:48, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Hey Stu;-)

WOW! A 400 Lb engine!!!
What engine?
What plane?

Is your tail dragger made with an aluminum fuselage? If so then what about the airframe blocking the signal. And as you said, the pattern would be at a low angle.
BUT! No matter where you place the antenna there will always be a signal blockage issue.

HEY! How about a Rocket Propelled ELT Unit? Actually 2 units - One on the top one on the bottom and each unit will be rocket propelled to shoot out 100 Ft. Instead of running a coax the entire unit shoots Up into a Tree, hooks on with treble fish hooks and transmit the signal.

I can guarantee the treble fish hook idea works!

Barry


On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 3:22 AM Stuart Hutchison <stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au (stuart(at)stuarthutchison.com.au)> wrote:
Quote:
Barry,
For sure many aircraft finish upside down after a sudden stop … the 400lb engine up front of my tailwheel aircraft will almost guarantee that. However, I've installed the whip antenna just forward of the vertical stab where it should be reasonably protected from a tip over. I have reviewed numerous RV and Rocket wrecks and think my ELT installation has a pretty good chance of remaining operational, provided I mount the coax with sufficient slack and flexibility to withstand a buckling fuselage. Even an inverted whip is correctly oriented for low altitude (i.e. closer to the horizon) satellites to receive from a ‘donut’ radiation pattern. And, no matter which Local User Terminal around the world receives the signal, the position will still be re-routed to the correct RCC for SAR response in near real time. The 406MHz data burst is .45 to .55 seconds long at 5W and randomised around 100 second intervals, so it has a good chance of being received and relayed by at least one satellite.

I don’t mean to preach and there are a great many wise people on this forum, but respectfully, from a Search and Rescue Officer's point of view, I couldn't disagree more with those who think an ELT is a waste of time and money. Years of SAR missions as a P3 Orion Tactical Coordinator for the Australian RCC, plus many more years as an Operations Officer, then SAR Officer and SAR instructor have proven time and time again to me the value of ELTs, especially 406 with embedded GPS. Crashed aircraft are incredibly difficult to see from the air when moving at between 2 and 4 nautical miles a minute. Yes ADS-B is a great starting datum for ATC & SAR, but if, for example, you have an electrical issue late one afternoon that stops ADS-B output (smoke and fumes or inflight fire that requires load shedding) and becomes a crash situation, just a few minutes of cruising off flight plan can easily delay location and rescue way past your overnight survival time. I can tell you from first hand experience in the RCC that it is very distressing for rescuers to miss you by just a few hundred feet or a few hours. It is even worse for the family left behind to realise that you might have been alive long enough to rescue if we had known exactly where to look. In fact, a former Senior Naval Officer at our School of Air Navigation lost his son in a light aircraft crash. A small piece of media misinformation meant a critical piece of search intelligence was overlooked. The pilot and passenger were located some months later in a follow-on search funded by the father, only to find that his son had survived with a broken leg for what was believed to be a week after the crash before succumbing to exposure.

It’s a morbid subject, but aviation is intolerant of fools and as aviators we need to be properly trained, equipped and prepared. The mandate is there for good reason, so we should install the ELT correctly, register and maintain it … it’s definitely not worth risking your life to neglect the ELT / PLB. And, carry a jumper Smile The priorities of survival are Protection (from the elements), Location (signalling devices, fires etc), Water, Food … in that order. We can survive for three days without water and 30 days without food, but who would want to do that? I’d rather get outta there.

Kind regards, Stu
Quote:
On 17 Aug 2018, at 03:59, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Many, if not Most crashes wind up with the plane Up-Side-Down.
So top mounted antennas become buried in the dirt or broken off.
When an aluminum plane is upside down there is even more of a barrier between the ELT antenna and the sky.
Wing Tips usually have the least amount of damage from a crash.
And, they are usually the farest away from the fuel tanks, the Horz Stab wing tips being the best location.
Personally I feel ELT's are one step above useless. They are usually in a fixed location, broken, buried,or have a dead battery. They are an FAA Reg, not a true safety, Search & Rescue device.
Consider a Personal Around the neck, or leg mounted PLT (Personal Locating Transmitter).

Choose wisely Grasshopper,

Barry






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steve(at)tomasara.com
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:23 am    Post subject: ELT antenna Reply with quote

Greetings All,

If anyone is interested in a 121.5/406 MHz (ARTEX ELT PORTABLE ANTENNA 110-775 - search on aircraft spruce), I have one I'm not going to use.  I was going to ebay it but I'll take a reasonable offer.
I also have several dual band monopoles I will not be using (ARTEX A3-06-2892-1 Black TSO'd for, and delivered with the ARTEX ELT 345, and two equivalent, but white, RAMI AV-200s) that are available to interested parties.
I got these while experimenting with different approaches to the dual-band antenna problem when I upgraded my ELT in my Longeze.  Since it's a plastic airplane, I have more options than others will.  I decided (regardless of the regulations issue) to mount a custom dual band dipole on the back of the pilots seat.  The frequency spacing made it so that I could not use the usual dual band loading approaches of which I was aware and I wasn't able to come up with a trap and loaded approach with which I had confidence.  However, the frequency spacing did allow me to come up with a two frequency fan dipole with one pair of elements a center-loaded shortened dipole for 121.5 and the second dipole full length for 406 MHz.  Element lengths were adjusted to accommodate the dielectric properties of the nearby fiberglass seat back.  Also, since I'm not using a balun, the cable routing from the center point is carefully laid on the virtual ground plane for a foot or two.  The result fits, it's located such that if the crash destroys it, I won't be in a hurry for a rescue anyway, has good VSWR on both frequencies and the ELT's self test is happy with it.  Sadly, there was no combination of the TSO'd antennas I could come up with that met these same criteria.
Best regards,
Steve Stearns
Longeze N45FC
Boulder/Longmont CO


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