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CROWBARS?

 
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bobnoffs



Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 81
Location: northern wi.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:01 am    Post subject: CROWBARS? Reply with quote

hi bob,

 i am trying to do ov protection on a viking 110. b and c would have the ovm blow a breaker and cut off current to coil in a relay. i think i have seen drawings of yours where a contactor is used betweeen alternator and main bus . can you direct me to a drawing that is as simple as you say. any current for relays/ contactors would have to come straight from the alternator. worst case with the honda is that both batteries must be taken off line, leaving the alternator to provide spark.

 thanks, bob noffs
On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:49 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 05:45 AM 7/12/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
well, i guess i should wire in a crowbar. seems like it should be pretty straight forward to have it break the circuit to the field. i will take a look in bob's book for ideas and go from there.

  The crowbar ov protection module can be added to
  any system wherein alternator field power is
  taken through a typical 5A breaker. The
  module is wired from field supply line to
  ground at any point downstream of that
  breaker. You can find examples in the Z-figures.



  Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject: CROWBARS? Reply with quote

I'm not (either) Bob, but...

I assume you're talking about an internally regulated alternator. If you have a copy of the 'Connection, go to drawing z13/8, 'all electric plane on a budget'. You can copy the circuit shown for the Dynamo (upper right hand and top center of the page). Just erase the dynamo/regulator parts and the filter capacitor, and tie what's labeled as a red wire at the voltage regulator to the B lead of the alternator.

Charlie

On 8/9/2018 2:00 PM, bob noffs wrote:

Quote:
hi bob,

 i am trying to do ov protection on a viking 110. b and c would have the ovm blow a breaker and cut off current to coil in a relay. i think i have seen drawings of yours where a contactor is used betweeen alternator and main bus . can you direct me to a drawing that is as simple as you say. any current for relays/ contactors would have to come straight from the alternator. worst case with the honda is that both batteries must be taken off line, leaving the alternator to provide spark.

 thanks, bob noffs


On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:49 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 05:45 AM 7/12/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
well, i guess i should wire in a crowbar. seems like it should be pretty straight forward to have it break the circuit to the field. i will take a look in bob's book for ideas and go from there.

  The crowbar ov protection module can be added to
  any system wherein alternator field power is
  taken through a typical 5A breaker. The
  module is wired from field supply line to
  ground at any point downstream of that
  breaker. You can find examples in the Z-figures.



  Bob . . .




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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1291
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:08 pm    Post subject: Re: CROWBARS? Reply with quote

Bob Noffs,
Here is a link to Bob's drawings:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/
It is OK to mix and match desired features from different drawings.
Z-19 and Z-24 might be useful for you.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:23 pm    Post subject: CROWBARS? Reply with quote

On 8/9/2018 7:08 PM, user9253 wrote:
Quote:


Bob Noffs,
Here is a link to Bob's drawings:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/
It is OK to mix and match desired features from different drawings.
Z-19 and Z-24 might be useful for you.

--------
Joe Gores
That will work if he has a dynamo with the B&C regulator, but that

drawing doesn't interrupt the B lead of a regular IR alternator. I don't
think he spec'd which alternator he's using.

Charlie

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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1291
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: CROWBARS? Reply with quote

Z-19 has dual batteries and a single alternator, which is what Bob plans for his Viking. Z-24 has a contactor in series with the alternator "B" lead.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:47 pm    Post subject: CROWBARS? Reply with quote

Oops; my bad. I just opened the 1st doc in that list. Sorry 'bout that.

Charlie

On 8/9/2018 9:03 PM, user9253 wrote:
Quote:


Z-19 has dual batteries and a single alternator, which is what Bob plans for his Viking. Z-24 has a contactor in series with the alternator "B" lead.

--------
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bobnoffs



Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 81
Location: northern wi.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:44 am    Post subject: CROWBARS? Reply with quote

i started wiring my ovm and i have a question about auto relays. the contactor i have for the lead off my alternator really bugs me that i am adding 14 ounces just for this ''switch''. my alternator is rated at 37 amps but the 40 and even 50 amp auto relays look like that have a ''faston tab'' for their terminal. are these terminals up to carrying the load from the alternator?

 bob
On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 5:31 PM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
I'm not (either) Bob, but...

I assume you're talking about an internally regulated alternator. If you have a copy of the 'Connection, go to drawing z13/8, 'all electric plane on a budget'. You can copy the circuit shown for the Dynamo (upper right hand and top center of the page). Just erase the dynamo/regulator parts and the filter capacitor, and tie what's labeled as a red wire at the voltage regulator to the B lead of the alternator.

Charlie

On 8/9/2018 2:00 PM, bob noffs wrote:

Quote:
hi bob,

 i am trying to do ov protection on a viking 110. b and c would have the ovm blow a breaker and cut off current to coil in a relay. i think i have seen drawings of yours where a contactor is used betweeen alternator and main bus . can you direct me to a drawing that is as simple as you say. any current for relays/ contactors would have to come straight from the alternator. worst case with the honda is that both batteries must be taken off line, leaving the alternator to provide spark.

 thanks, bob noffs


On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:49 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 05:45 AM 7/12/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
well, i guess i should wire in a crowbar. seems like it should be pretty straight forward to have it break the circuit to the field. i will take a look in bob's book for ideas and go from there.

  The crowbar ov protection module can be added to
  any system wherein alternator field power is
  taken through a typical 5A breaker. The
  module is wired from field supply line to
  ground at any point downstream of that
  breaker. You can find examples in the Z-figures.



  Bob . . .





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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:27 am    Post subject: CROWBARS? Reply with quote

Good question. Here's the Faston data sheet:http://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=showdoc&DocId=Specification+Or+Standard%7F108-20020%7FD3%7Fpdf%7FEnglish%7FENG_SS_108-20020_D3.pdf%7F180906

The current rating of the terminal seems more closely tied to the wire size than the terminal itself, but everything has a limit. If you want 'insurance', you can get those automotive relays with current ratings up to around 100 amps. I've got one in front of me that's rated for 80 amps, and the power carrying blades are 3/8" wide instead of 1/4". It came with a mating socket & pigtails, so you'd splice on your wire to extend to the final destination.
Charlie
On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 5:36 AM, bob noffs <icubob(at)gmail.com (icubob(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
i started wiring my ovm and i have a question about auto relays. the contactor i have for the lead off my alternator really bugs me that i am adding 14 ounces just for this ''switch''. my alternator is rated at 37 amps but the 40 and even 50 amp auto relays look like that have a ''faston tab'' for their terminal. are these terminals up to carrying the load from the alternator?

 bob
On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 5:31 PM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
I'm not (either) Bob, but...

I assume you're talking about an internally regulated alternator. If you have a copy of the 'Connection, go to drawing z13/8, 'all electric plane on a budget'. You can copy the circuit shown for the Dynamo (upper right hand and top center of the page). Just erase the dynamo/regulator parts and the filter capacitor, and tie what's labeled as a red wire at the voltage regulator to the B lead of the alternator.

Charlie

On 8/9/2018 2:00 PM, bob noffs wrote:

Quote:
hi bob,

 i am trying to do ov protection on a viking 110. b and c would have the ovm blow a breaker and cut off current to coil in a relay. i think i have seen drawings of yours where a contactor is used betweeen alternator and main bus . can you direct me to a drawing that is as simple as you say. any current for relays/ contactors would have to come straight from the alternator. worst case with the honda is that both batteries must be taken off line, leaving the alternator to provide spark.

 thanks, bob noffs


On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:49 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 05:45 AM 7/12/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
well, i guess i should wire in a crowbar. seems like it should be pretty straight forward to have it break the circuit to the field. i will take a look in bob's book for ideas and go from there.

  The crowbar ov protection module can be added to
  any system wherein alternator field power is
  taken through a typical 5A breaker. The
  module is wired from field supply line to
  ground at any point downstream of that
  breaker. You can find examples in the Z-figures.



  Bob . . .





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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1291
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:45 am    Post subject: Re: CROWBARS? Reply with quote

According to page 8 this document from TE Connectivity using 10AWG, the ampacity is 24 amps continuous or 48 amp intermittent.
http://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=srchrtrv&DocNm=82004_FASTON_TERMINALS_-_FULL_CATALOG&DocType=CS&DocLang=EN
Chances are that your RV-12 will use about 10 amps continuous, up to 20 intermittent. If you expect to use the full capacity of your alternator continuously, then a faston terminal would be stressed. I would be comfortable using the relay with faston terminals. You have a 40 hour test period to try it out.


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bobnoffs



Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 81
Location: northern wi.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:06 am    Post subject: CROWBARS? Reply with quote

so to make this even more confusing a site called ''wirebarn.com'' has a wire size calculator that says 12 ga is good for 40 amps up to about 4 feet and the faston site says the .375'' tab is good for 40 amps.anyone have any comment or experience with these stats?

 bob noffs
On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 7:50 AM user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

According to page 8 this document from TE Connectivity using 10AWG, the ampacity is 24 amps continuous or 48 amp intermittent. 
http://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=srchrtrv&DocNm=82004_FASTON_TERMINALS_-_FULL_CATALOG&DocType=CS&DocLang=EN
Chances are that your RV-12 will use about 10 amps continuous, up to 20 intermittent.  If you expect to use the full capacity of your alternator continuously, then a faston terminal would be stressed.  I would be comfortable using the relay with faston terminals.  You have a 40 hour test period to try it out.

--------
Joe Gores




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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:08 am    Post subject: CROWBARS? Reply with quote

At 05:36 AM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
i started wiring my ovm and i have a question about auto relays. the contactor i have for the lead off my alternator really bugs me that i am adding 14 ounces just for this ''switch''. my alternator is rated at 37 amps but the 40 and even 50 amp auto relays look like that have a ''faston tab'' for their terminal. are these terminals up to carrying the load from the alternator?
bob

You might consider this product:

https://goo.gl/UAVJMw

I have no experience with these . . . I'm
going to order one to peek and poke at . . .
but the specs are right.

I'd wire the b-lead up with 6AWG welding
cable.

https://goo.gl/BxAj1V



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:23 am    Post subject: CROWBARS? Reply with quote

At 09:04 AM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
so to make this even more confusing a site called ''wirebarn.com'' has a wire size calculator that says 12 ga is good for 40 amps up to about 4 feet and the faston site says the .375'' tab is good for 40 amps.anyone have any comment or experience with these stats?

I would discourage running an alternator b-lead
through a fast-on tab. Components with threaded
fasteners for fat wire termination are demonstrably
low risk. The relay I cited earlier offers
this feature. #6 welding cable is SOFT and FLEXIBLE
hence transfers small installation/operation stresses to
the relay's terminals and is VERY capable of
carrying alternator outputs up to and including
70A.



Bob . . .


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kenryan



Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:55 am    Post subject: CROWBARS? Reply with quote

On the topic of soft and flexible welding cable, we have a supplier up here (Alaska) who developed soft flexible wire for use in cold environments called Arctic Ultraflex. It is almost a flexible as welding cable, and is available in much smaller sizes. The only downside I have found is that the insulation can be cut quite easily, so protection is important. The supplier is Polar Wire but surely this produce is not unique. http://www.polarwire.com/

On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 9:28 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 09:04 AM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
so to make this even more confusing a site called ''wirebarn.com'' has a wire size calculator that says 12 ga is good for 40 amps up to about 4 feet and the faston site says the .375'' tab is good for 40 amps.anyone have any comment or experience with these stats?

  I would discourage running an alternator b-lead
  through a fast-on tab. Components with threaded
  fasteners for fat wire termination are demonstrably
  low risk. The relay I cited earlier offers
  this feature. #6 welding cable is SOFT and FLEXIBLE
  hence transfers small installation/operation stresses to
  the relay's terminals and is VERY capable of
  carrying alternator outputs up to and including
  70A.



  Bob . . .


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bobnoffs



Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 81
Location: northern wi.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:09 am    Post subject: CROWBARS? Reply with quote

i swear i have been to that site a dozen times and never saw that relay. just ordered it. thanks bob.

 bob noffs
On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 12:59 PM Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com (keninalaska(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
On the topic of soft and flexible welding cable, we have a supplier up here (Alaska) who developed soft flexible wire for use in cold environments called Arctic Ultraflex. It is almost a flexible as welding cable, and is available in much smaller sizes. The only downside I have found is that the insulation can be cut quite easily, so protection is important. The supplier is Polar Wire but surely this produce is not unique. http://www.polarwire.com/

On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 9:28 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 09:04 AM 8/23/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
so to make this even more confusing a site called ''wirebarn.com'' has a wire size calculator that says 12 ga is good for 40 amps up to about 4 feet and the faston site says the .375'' tab is good for 40 amps.anyone have any comment or experience with these stats?

  I would discourage running an alternator b-lead
  through a fast-on tab. Components with threaded
  fasteners for fat wire termination are demonstrably
  low risk. The relay I cited earlier offers
  this feature. #6 welding cable is SOFT and FLEXIBLE
  hence transfers small installation/operation stresses to
  the relay's terminals and is VERY capable of
  carrying alternator outputs up to and including
  70A.



  Bob . . .



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