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Question for Bob

 
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Rocketman1988



Joined: 21 Jun 2012
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:45 am    Post subject: Question for Bob Reply with quote

Bob

I am using the Z-14 for a template.

I have looked at the sketch of the aft mounted batteries, as I am building an RV-10 with an electrically dependent engine.

I would like to have the Main and Aux Battery busses located forward instead of aft. My thought would be to run two large cables from the aft batteries to the forward busses, and small, short wires to the loads. The sketch you made would require many long small wires and two short large wires. As an aside, the c/b s would then be located aft, as well.

My question is, would running two large cables forward be viable?

If so, what AWG wire would you recommend? #8, #6, #4 ? The loads should not exceed 25 -30 A.

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:51 am    Post subject: Question for Bob Reply with quote

I think you'll find most other Z-14 10's configured the way you are
describing.  Mine certainly is.

On 7/16/2018 11:45 AM, Rocketman1988 wrote:
Quote:


Bob

I am using the Z-14 for a template.

I have looked at the sketch of the aft mounted batteries, as I am building an RV-10 with an electrically dependent engine.

I would like to have the Main and Aux Battery busses located forward instead of aft. My thought would be to run two large cables from the aft batteries to the forward busses, and small, short wires to the loads. The sketch you made would require many long small wires and two short large wires. As an aside, the c/b s would then be located aft, as well.

My question is, would running two large cables forward be viable?

If so, what AWG wire would you recommend? #8, #6, #4 ? The loads should not exceed 25 -30 A.

Thanks.


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481658#481658




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Rocketman1988



Joined: 21 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: Question for Bob Reply with quote

So what size wire did you run from the aft battery to the forward buss?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:59 am    Post subject: Question for Bob Reply with quote

Bob


I am using the Z-14 for a template. I have looked at the sketch of the
aft mounted batteries, as I am building an RV-10 with an electrically
dependent engine.

I would like to have the Main and Aux Battery busses located forward instead
of aft. My thought would be to run two large cables from the aft batteries
to the forward busses, and small, short wires to the loads.

A 'battery bus' is an always hot structure mounted
close to a battery that drives feeders protected
by (1) crash-friendly fuses (7A) or breakers (5A)
-OR- (2) crew-controlled feeders with added relays/
contactors when 5-7A robustness is insufficient.

Once separated from the battery, it's some other
kind of bus . . . you pick the name. Legacy design
philosophy calls for a mini-contactor or relay to manage
the feeder to that bus. This drives reliability
of that bus down when the contactor is added.
Not recommended for powering accessories that
benefit by getting power from a REAL battery bus.

The sketch you made would require many long small wires
and two short large wires.

How many is 'many'? What are the anticipated feeders?
What do they power and what are their protection levels?

As an aside, the c/b s would then be located aft, as well.

Yup, that's how battery busses are . . . on every airplane
I've worked with . . .

My question is, would running two large cables forward be viable?
If so, what AWG wire would you recommend? #8, #6, #4 ? The loads should not exceed 25 -30 A.

This is a departure from legacy design philosophies
which begs validation with new FMEAs . . . the results
of which may not be attractive.


Bob . . .


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Rocketman1988



Joined: 21 Jun 2012
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Question for Bob Reply with quote

Bob

Thanks for the insight.

I am using electronic fuel injection and ignition. So the coil packs, a fuel pump p, and an ECU need to be on a buss powered by both batteries...and the c/b s need to be accessible, i.e. not aft of the baggage compartment.

It appears that I will need to accept the two additional contactors to feed the forward busses, as the required power will exceed 10 amps...

Would you recommend a continuous duty contactor or a relay between the battery and the load?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:30 pm    Post subject: Question for Bob Reply with quote

At 03:14 PM 7/16/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rocketman1988" <Rocketman(at)etczone.com>

Bob

Thanks for the insight.

I am using electronic fuel injection and ignition. So the coil packs, a fuel pump p, and an ECU need to be on a buss powered by both batteries...and the c/b s need to be accessible, i.e. not aft of the baggage compartment.

It appears that I will need to accept the two additional contactors to feed the forward busses, as the required power will exceed 10 amps...

Would you recommend a continuous duty contactor or a relay between the battery and the load?



Can you post a sketch of the proposed constellation
of feeders?



Bob . . .


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Rocketman1988



Joined: 21 Jun 2012
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Question for Bob Reply with quote

Bob

This is just a simple drawing with reference to the Z-14.

The feeders to the "hot" busses are the ones in question. In the RV-10, the 3 contactors are located in the aft fuselage, while I would like the busses to be located forward, with c/b s accessible from the control seat.

Those two wires would each be around 10 feet long...


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:52 pm    Post subject: Question for Bob Reply with quote

Just a heads-up, your diode symbols are for zener diodes. I doubt that's what you intend to use, and it could confuse an avionics tech in the future.

On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 5:21 PM, Rocketman1988 <Rocketman(at)etczone.com (Rocketman(at)etczone.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rocketman1988" <Rocketman(at)etczone.com (Rocketman(at)etczone.com)>

Bob

This is just a simple drawing with reference to the Z-14.

The feeders to the "hot" busses are the ones in question.  In the RV-10, the 3 contactors are located in the aft fuselage, while I would like the busses to be located forward, with c/b s accessible from the control seat.

Those two wires would each be around 10 feet long...




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481674#481674




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http://forums.matronics.com//files/rv_10_electrical_v10_182.jpg



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Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1539
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:22 pm    Post subject: Question for Bob Reply with quote

As the builder of a -10, with good old 1960 mags and electrical layout,
I can tell you that you really don't want more battery behind the
baggage compartment than necessary. You either have a PITA panel to
remove, or you have to modify the panel to make an access door...and
most information indicates that panel is structural, so you have to use
some care in modifying it. If you have a battery of suitable weight in
the rear to match the original plans, then you could put something light
weight like an EarthX up on the firewall. It would save you a lot of
heavy duty cabling.

On 7/16/2018 3:21 PM, Rocketman1988 wrote:
Quote:


Bob

This is just a simple drawing with reference to the Z-14.

The feeders to the "hot" busses are the ones in question. In the RV-10, the 3 contactors are located in the aft fuselage, while I would like the busses to be located forward, with c/b s accessible from the control seat.

Those two wires would each be around 10 feet long...




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481674#481674




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Rocketman1988



Joined: 21 Jun 2012
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Question for Bob Reply with quote

Sorry about the Zener symbol. The diagram was just sketched out give me something to look at...I never intended on posting it but I did so, as Bob asked...

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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1263
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Question for Bob Reply with quote

The alternator fuses should be physically located at the other end of the "B" leads near the battery contactors. The fuses protect the batteries. The alternator is self current limiting.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:00 pm    Post subject: Question for Bob Reply with quote

At 05:21 PM 7/16/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rocketman1988" <Rocketman(at)etczone.com>

Bob

This is just a simple drawing with reference to the Z-14.

The feeders to the "hot" busses are the ones in question. In the RV-10, the 3 contactors are located in the aft fuselage, while I would like the busses to be located forward, with c/b s accessible from the control seat.

Those two wires would each be around 10 feet long...

No, I need to see a schematic of your bus
structure and a description of what wires
take power from each bus to its respective
load.

This is the information necessary to do FMEA.
Words may occasionally suffice but a schematic
is the universal language that offers clarity
above all words.



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:55 am    Post subject: Question for Bob Reply with quote

I know the discussion has gone way past this but  I ran 2 AWG between
the batteries, contactors, and for the forward run to the starter.  All
other 'bus' runs are 8 AWG.

I'll attach a diagram of my Z-14 in my RV10.  (2) Odyssey 680s in the
rear along with the 3 contactors.  Everything else on the diagram is
forward.
On 7/16/2018 2:00 PM, Rocketman1988 wrote:
Quote:


So what size wire did you run from the aft battery to the forward buss?


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481660#481660



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:09 pm    Post subject: Question for Bob Reply with quote

At 01:54 PM 7/24/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
I know the discussion has gone way past this but I ran 2 AWG between the batteries, contactors, and for the forward run to the starter. All other 'bus' runs are 8 AWG.

I'll attach a diagram of my Z-14 in my RV10. (2) Odyssey 680s in the rear along with the 3 contactors. Everything else on the diagram is forward.

That should play as advertised. Only thing
I would suggest is to make your battery
jumpers from 4AWG welding cable. Very
flexible and entirely sufficient
electrically but MUCH less stress
on the battery connector screws.

Do you have a wire runnig from battery(-)
up to your firewall ground bus?



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:07 am    Post subject: Question for Bob Reply with quote

On 7/24/2018 8:08 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

Quote:
At 01:54 PM 7/24/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
I know the discussion has gone way past this but  I ran 2 AWG between the batteries, contactors, and for the forward run to the starter.  All other 'bus' runs are 8 AWG.

I'll attach a diagram of my Z-14 in my RV10.  (2) Odyssey 680s in the rear along with the 3 contactors.  Everything else on the diagram is forward.

That should play as advertised. Only thing
I would suggest is to make your battery
jumpers from 4AWG welding cable. Very
flexible and entirely sufficient
electrically but MUCH less stress
on the battery connector screws.

Do you have a wire runnig from battery(-)
up to your firewall ground bus?
Yes I do. My guess is that it is an 8AWG wire running from the battery to airframe ground connection forward to the ground bus. That forward ground bus is also grounded to the airframe.
Quote:



Bob . . .



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:14 am    Post subject: Question for Bob Reply with quote

Do you have a wire running from battery(-)
up to your firewall ground bus?

Yes I do. My guess is that it is an 8AWG wire running from the battery to airframe ground connection forward to the ground bus. That forward ground bus is also grounded to the airframe.

Okay . . . the resistance of that wire is probably
100 times higher than the airframe. The wire doesn't
hurt anything but it adds no value.

Also just noticed the dual power source diodes
for the oil pressure annunciator. The 'thing'
about Z-14 is that there's virtually zero
probability that either of the busses will
go dark. Powering from the aux bus alone
would eliminate the diodes.





Bob . . .


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GusF16rv8



Joined: 30 May 2018
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:41 am    Post subject: Re: Question for Bob Reply with quote

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
Do you have a wire running from battery(-) up to your firewall ground bus?

Yes I do. My guess is that it is an 8AWG wire running from the battery to airframe ground connection forward to the ground bus. That forward ground bus is also grounded to the airframe.

Okay . . . the resistance of that wire is probably
100 times higher than the airframe. The wire doesn't
hurt anything but it adds no value.



Isn't the point of having a bus or 'field of tabs' grounded directly to the negative batt terminal to prevent ground loops through the airframe? If so, why then is the wire of no value, because of its length due to being run from the rear?

From the explanation above, it sounds like both ends (batt neg terminal and ground bus) are also grounded to the airframe, is that correct?

Could you specify which wire is 'adds no value' and how the planned system SHOULD be grounded then? Thanks!


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