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Sequence for bringing alternators on line.

 
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cluros(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:19 pm    Post subject: Sequence for bringing alternators on line. Reply with quote

I was out at the aircraft today programming checklists and limits, had the alternator switch in the main position with the engine not running and noticed a 7 amp draw which seemed excessive for what was on. Turned the alternator switch to off and the draw went to 3 amps. Put my hand on the alternator and it was hot to the touch. Alternator is a Lamar with internal regulator. Is it normal for a non-turning alternator to be drawing 4 amps? If so then I think we'll leave it off until after start and turn it off before shutdown.

On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 1:10 PM, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
The starter contactor is a B&C S702 and SD-8 relay is included in the PMOV kit so I think the diode is built in as well.

The E-123 relay is not necessary in the current setup but this system was originally designed for P-Mags and the start switch was going to be an S2000 button. I'm guessing that the S2000 needed the relay and when it was replaced with an ACS switch the relay was left in for later conversion.
Thank you all for the replies, I'll just leave the alternator switch on Main all the time since there's no advantage to turning it off for engine start. Once the aircraft is through its test phase we plan on testing the SD-8 on an every 4 months schedule.
On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 6:22 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 09:07 PM 6/12/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

The two relays and starter contactor should all have diodes just like the battery contactor does.  Connect banded end of diodes to positive.
  Can the start switch handle the start contactor coil current?  Or is the E-123 Relay necessary?

  The ACS/Bendix/Gerdes key switch will handle
  the automotive starter contacter that's fitted
  with a supression diode. Many (like the B&C
  S702) have the diode built in. If in doubt,
  install a second one . . . two are better
  than none. The buffer relay is not necessary
  but doesn't hurt anything . . . if left in
  add the diode to it too as Joe suggests.



  Bob . . .





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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:07 am    Post subject: Sequence for bringing alternators on line. Reply with quote

My ND is the same.
I turn it on just before startup and off just after shutdown.
Ken

On 07/07/2018 1:18 AM, Sebastien wrote:
Quote:
I was out at the aircraft today programming checklists and limits, had
the alternator switch in the main position with the engine not running
and noticed a 7 amp draw which seemed excessive for what was on.
Turned the alternator switch to off and the draw went to 3 amps. Put
my hand on the alternator and it was hot to the touch. Alternator is a
Lamar with internal regulator. Is it normal for a non-turning
alternator to be drawing 4 amps? If so then I think we'll leave it off
until after start and turn it off before shutdown.

On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 1:10 PM, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com
<mailto:cluros(at)gmail.com>> wrote:

The starter contactor is a B&C S702 and SD-8 relay is included in
the PMOV kit so I think the diode is built in as well.

The E-123 relay is not necessary in the current setup but this
system was originally designed for P-Mags and the start switch was
going to be an S2000 button. I'm guessing that the S2000 needed
the relay and when it was replaced with an ACS switch the relay
was left in for later conversion.

Thank you all for the replies, I'll just leave the alternator
switch on Main all the time since there's no advantage to turning
it off for engine start. Once the aircraft is through its test
phase we plan on testing the SD-8 on an every 4 months schedule.

On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 6:22 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
<nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com
<mailto:nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>> wrote:

At 09:07 PM 6/12/2018, you wrote:
>
> <fransew(at)gmail.com <mailto:fransew(at)gmail.com>>
>
> The two relays and starter contactor should all have diodes
> just like the battery contactor does. Connect banded end of
> diodes to positive.
> Can the start switch handle the start contactor coil
> current? Or is the E-123 Relay necessary?

The ACS/Bendix/Gerdes key switch will handle
the automotive starter contacter that's fitted
with a supression diode. Many (like the B&C
S702) have the diode built in. If in doubt,
install a second one . . . two are better
than none. The buffer relay is not necessary
but doesn't hurt anything . . . if left in
add the diode to it too as Joe suggests.
Bob . . .



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trigo(at)mail.telepac.pt
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:09 am    Post subject: Sequence for bringing alternators on line. Reply with quote

Sebastien

That is correct.
Once I forgot my alternator switch On for around half na hour, and then found the alternator very, very hot, and the battery almost depleted.
Carlos

Enviado do meu iPhone

No dia 07/07/2018, às 06:18, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> escreveu:
Quote:
I was out at the aircraft today programming checklists and limits, had the alternator switch in the main position with the engine not running and noticed a 7 amp draw which seemed excessive for what was on. Turned the alternator switch to off and the draw went to 3 amps. Put my hand on the alternator and it was hot to the touch. Alternator is a Lamar with internal regulator. Is it normal for a non-turning alternator to be drawing 4 amps? If so then I think we'll leave it off until after start and turn it off before shutdown.

On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 1:10 PM, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
The starter contactor is a B&C S702 and SD-8 relay is included in the PMOV kit so I think the diode is built in as well.

The E-123 relay is not necessary in the current setup but this system was originally designed for P-Mags and the start switch was going to be an S2000 button. I'm guessing that the S2000 needed the relay and when it was replaced with an ACS switch the relay was left in for later conversion.
Thank you all for the replies, I'll just leave the alternator switch on Main all the time since there's no advantage to turning it off for engine start. Once the aircraft is through its test phase we plan on testing the SD-8 on an every 4 months schedule.
On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 6:22 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 09:07 PM 6/12/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

The two relays and starter contactor should all have diodes just like the battery contactor does. Connect banded end of diodes to positive.
Can the start switch handle the start contactor coil current? Or is the E-123 Relay necessary?

The ACS/Bendix/Gerdes key switch will handle
the automotive starter contacter that's fitted
with a supression diode. Many (like the B&C
S702) have the diode built in. If in doubt,
install a second one . . . two are better
than none. The buffer relay is not necessary
but doesn't hurt anything . . . if left in
add the diode to it too as Joe suggests.



Bob . . .







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BARRY CHECK 6



Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 699

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:17 am    Post subject: Sequence for bringing alternators on line. Reply with quote

Sebastien:


Now knowing your system but taking a SWAG...
1 - Master relays draw between  1 to 2 Amps just to close.
2 - Do you have an old style T&B?  If so you are looking at another 0.25 to 0.5 Amps.
3 - What other items do you have that may have KEEP-ALIVE circuits?
4 - If the Field of the alternator is wired incorrectly the field will draw all the time and that would be  about 
12 V / 4 Ohms = 3 Amps or 12 V / 6 Ohms = 2 Amps.
Either way that put you right in the area of what you are seeing.  
Barry
On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 1:18 AM, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
I was out at the aircraft today programming checklists and limits, had the alternator switch in the main position with the engine not running and noticed a 7 amp draw which seemed excessive for what was on. Turned the alternator switch to off and the draw went to 3 amps. Put my hand on the alternator and it was hot to the touch. Alternator is a Lamar with internal regulator. Is it normal for a non-turning alternator to be drawing 4 amps? If so then I think we'll leave it off until after start and turn it off before shutdown.

On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 1:10 PM, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
The starter contactor is a B&C S702 and SD-8 relay is included in the PMOV kit so I think the diode is built in as well.

The E-123 relay is not necessary in the current setup but this system was originally designed for P-Mags and the start switch was going to be an S2000 button. I'm guessing that the S2000 needed the relay and when it was replaced with an ACS switch the relay was left in for later conversion.
Thank you all for the replies, I'll just leave the alternator switch on Main all the time since there's no advantage to turning it off for engine start. Once the aircraft is through its test phase we plan on testing the SD-8 on an every 4 months schedule.
On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 6:22 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 09:07 PM 6/12/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

The two relays and starter contactor should all have diodes just like the battery contactor does.  Connect banded end of diodes to positive.
  Can the start switch handle the start contactor coil current?  Or is the E-123 Relay necessary?

  The ACS/Bendix/Gerdes key switch will handle
  the automotive starter contacter that's fitted
  with a supression diode. Many (like the B&C
  S702) have the diode built in. If in doubt,
  install a second one . . . two are better
  than none. The buffer relay is not necessary
  but doesn't hurt anything . . . if left in
  add the diode to it too as Joe suggests.



  Bob . . .






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Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 699

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:23 am    Post subject: Sequence for bringing alternators on line. Reply with quote

Oh,  Sebastien:
Human nature being what it is...  There have been MANY a Power Loss issue by pilots starting on Just the Master and Forgetting to turn the Alternator ON.
Really reeks hell on the radio and especially with planes with electrical re-tracts.
Barry


On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 1:18 AM, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
I was out at the aircraft today programming checklists and limits, had the alternator switch in the main position with the engine not running and noticed a 7 amp draw which seemed excessive for what was on. Turned the alternator switch to off and the draw went to 3 amps. Put my hand on the alternator and it was hot to the touch. Alternator is a Lamar with internal regulator. Is it normal for a non-turning alternator to be drawing 4 amps? If so then I think we'll leave it off until after start and turn it off before shutdown.

On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 1:10 PM, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com (cluros(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
The starter contactor is a B&C S702 and SD-8 relay is included in the PMOV kit so I think the diode is built in as well.

The E-123 relay is not necessary in the current setup but this system was originally designed for P-Mags and the start switch was going to be an S2000 button. I'm guessing that the S2000 needed the relay and when it was replaced with an ACS switch the relay was left in for later conversion.
Thank you all for the replies, I'll just leave the alternator switch on Main all the time since there's no advantage to turning it off for engine start. Once the aircraft is through its test phase we plan on testing the SD-8 on an every 4 months schedule.
On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 6:22 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 09:07 PM 6/12/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

The two relays and starter contactor should all have diodes just like the battery contactor does.  Connect banded end of diodes to positive.
  Can the start switch handle the start contactor coil current?  Or is the E-123 Relay necessary?

  The ACS/Bendix/Gerdes key switch will handle
  the automotive starter contacter that's fitted
  with a supression diode. Many (like the B&C
  S702) have the diode built in. If in doubt,
  install a second one . . . two are better
  than none. The buffer relay is not necessary
  but doesn't hurt anything . . . if left in
  add the diode to it too as Joe suggests.



  Bob . . .






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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:47 am    Post subject: Sequence for bringing alternators on line. Reply with quote

In this case, forgetting would be pretty impossible. Dynon Skyview system with audio warnings and Bob's light. I'd have to forget to turn it on, skip the checklist item to check voltage, fail to see the Dynon low voltage warning, and ignore the light. A pilot that could manage that has bigger problems than a dead battery.
Is this normal behaviour for all alternators or just internally regulated ones or otherwise alternator specific. It's the first time I've noticed a big draw from having the alternator on with the engine off.

On Sun, Jul 8, 2018, 7:49 AM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

Quote:
At 01:23 PM 7/7/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Oh,  Sebastien:

Human nature being what it is...  There have been MANY a Power Loss issue by pilots starting on Just the Master and Forgetting to turn the Alternator ON.
Really reeks hell on the radio and especially with planes with electrical re-tracts.

   If an airplane were fitted with but one
   annunciation of electrical system condition,
   I'd go for the low voltage warning light.
   Like the battery ammeter of old, it's
   one device that gives you the most
   information about system condition
   in a single instrument . . . albeit
   a bit tricky to interpret for some
   conditions . . . also easy to ignore.

   A single, flashing light that operates
   below 13.0 volts is the modern and
   more attention getting alternative.



  Bob . . .


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