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Rotax Charging System
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:41 pm    Post subject: Rotax Charging System Reply with quote

Joe the Ducati has 6 pins instead of 5 for the John Deere. I believe the extra pin on the Ducati is for a large capacitor but the John Deere ones are MOSFET rectifiers which don't need the capacitor? So we could hook up the two AC wires, the B+, the L, and the IGN wires the same as on the Ducati and just remove the cap from the system? Am I making any sense?

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 11:15 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
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Search eBay for AM101406 or MIA881279
Chances are that the $20 ones are the same as the more expensive ones.
Note that the terminals are arraigned in a different order than the Ducati.  The mounting holes are also spaced differently.  Be sure to use heat conductive grease on the mounting base to carry heat away.

> Any luck on a part number or a way to determine an appropriate John Deere regulator?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Rotax Charging System Reply with quote

Neither the Ducati or John Deere regulator has a terminal specifically for a capacitor, although some installers might connect a capacitor to Ducati terminal R. Terminals B and R are connected together internally. I believe the purpose of the R terminal is not for redundancy, but rather to reduce current through a single terminal. A capacitor is required regardless of which regulator is used. It can be connected to the main power bus. I put a 10 amp fuse in series with mine.
Splice the two wires together that were connected to Ducati terminals B & R and connect to John Deere terminal B+.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:39 pm    Post subject: Rotax Charging System Reply with quote

At 03:41 PM 6/13/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Joe the Ducati has 6 pins instead of 5 for the John Deere. I believe the extra pin on the Ducati is for a large capacitor but the John Deere ones are MOSFET rectifiers which don't need the capacitor? So we could hook up the two AC wires, the B+, the L, and the IGN wires the same as on the Ducati and just remove the cap from the system? Am I making any sense?

As long as you have a battery on line,
the capacitor serves no demonstrable
purpose.



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:18 am    Post subject: Re: Rotax Charging System Reply with quote

Even if the battery is disconnected, I do not think that the capacitor does much good. When my PC680 failed open, the alternator voltage was unstable. However, Rotax documentation calls for a capacitor. It is best to follow manufacturer's instructions. They might know something that I don't.
Quote:
As long as you have a battery on line,
the capacitor serves no demonstrable purpose.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:07 pm    Post subject: Rotax Charging System Reply with quote

Joe,
can you confirm wiring for the JD voltage regulator please.
B+ = DC + output to capacitor and system
AC = yellow wires from generator
L =  indicator light
IGW = master?
is that right?
thanks
Will

William Daniell

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On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 11:03 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
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Ken,
While I have great respect for Mike M. and admire his knowledge, I do disagree with that ending statement.  Heat caused by high current can damage alternator windings.  But the total current is determined by the load, not by the regulator.  I do not think that the Silent Hektik regulator will stress the alternator any more than the Ducati regulator.
  Two years ago I replaced the Ducati regulator in my RV-12 with a cheap John Deere regulator from eBay.  I made an adapter plate using 1/8" aluminum because the mounting holes did not line up.  I used heat conductive grease on both sides of the mounting plate.  A thermocouple attached to the John Deere regulator measured a maximum temperature of 157 degrees Fahrenheit on a 90+ degree day.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Rotax Charging System Reply with quote

Will,
Yes, you are correct.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Rotax Charging System Reply with quote

Use heat conductive paste between the regulator and aluminum airframe or heat sink. The regulator case should be well grounded. Some installers connect a ground wire to one of the mounting bolts. Forced air cooling will prolong regulator life.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Rotax Charging System Reply with quote

I don't believe I've ever seen a definitive answer to the question of what the exact purpose of the 22,000 mfd capacitor is in the 912 charging circuit. Can anyone answer that question? I apologize if the answer is buried somewhere in the archives of this forum, and I just haven't searched far enough to find it.

OK, I found where Bob said that as long as there is a battery connected in the system, there is no demonstrable need for a capacitor. Is the capacitor there to protect something if the battery is disconnected? I've seen all kinds of explanations offered by others, starting with "it's there to provide noise filtering", which I'm pretty sure is not the case. I would just like to know.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:05 pm    Post subject: Rotax Charging System Reply with quote

John,

Filtering.
Barry

On Friday, September 14, 2018, jrevens <jrevens(at)comcast.net (jrevens(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "jrevens" <jrevens(at)comcast.net (jrevens(at)comcast.net)>

I don't believe I've ever seen a definitive answer to the question of what the exact purpose of the 22,000 mfd capacitor is in the 912 charging circuit.  Can anyone answer that question?  I apologize if the answer is buried somewhere in the archives of this forum, and I just haven't searched far enough to find it.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:40 am    Post subject: Rotax Charging System Reply with quote

At 11:56 PM 9/13/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "jrevens" <jrevens(at)comcast.net>

I don't believe I've ever seen a definitive answer to the question of what the exact purpose of the 22,000 mfd capacitor is in the 912 charging circuit. Can anyone answer that question? I apologize if the answer is buried somewhere in the archives of this forum, and I just haven't searched far enough to find it.

These capacitors have been included as part
of many PM alternator systems with rectifier/regulators
for a long time. Never got to talk with an original
designer but the general consensus amongst those who
have offered opinions is that it 'reduces noise' and/or
'aids alternator-only operations'.

Limited testing I've conducted on smaller systems
(10 amp) showed no benefit with respect to noise
levels on the bus . . . DC busses in vehicles are
generally very noisy anyhow and everyone worth his
salt as an appliance designer will know how to
'live with it'.

Here's a family of plots I took on an SD8 alterantor
on B&C's drive stand about 15 years ago:

https://tinyurl.com/cz7ekrf

Page 1 is a picture of a fully loaded SD8 with
capacitor installed. Measured noise in the low
frequency spectrum was about 250 millivolts peak
to peak, 77 mV RMS.

Page 2 shows what happens when the capacitor is
removed . . . 760 mV pk-pk and 72 mV RMS.

In other words, no significant change. Alternator
noise on the bus in an airplane with a wound field
is MUCH higher and broader spectrum . . . but still
nothing that your electro-whizzies should care about.

I fiddled with some no battery ops too on pages 7, 8 and
9 . . . but didn't see how it performed with no capacitor.
I'm thinking that planning for no battery ops is a
capitulation to poor battery maintenance practices
and/or errors of conducting FMEA in deciding architecture.

Short answer is I don't think the capacitor adds
any useful benefit. If anyone runs across some testing
data that contradicts these findings, I'd be delighted
to know about it.



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:04 pm    Post subject: Rotax Charging System Reply with quote

On 9/17/2018 1:39 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

Quote:
At 11:56 PM 9/13/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "jrevens" <jrevens(at)comcast.net> (jrevens(at)comcast.net)

I don't believe I've ever seen a definitive answer to the question of what the exact purpose of the 22,000 mfd capacitor is in the 912 charging circuit. Can anyone answer that question? I apologize if the answer is buried somewhere in the archives of this forum, and I just haven't searched far enough to find it.

These capacitors have been included as part
of many PM alternator systems with rectifier/regulators
for a long time. Never got to talk with an original
designer but the general consensus amongst those who
have offered opinions is that it 'reduces noise' and/or
'aids alternator-only operations'.

Limited testing I've conducted on smaller systems
(10 amp) showed no benefit with respect to noise
levels on the bus . . . DC busses in vehicles are
generally very noisy anyhow and everyone worth his
salt as an appliance designer will know how to
'live with it'.

Here's a family of plots I took on an SD8 alterantor
on B&C's drive stand about 15 years ago:

https://tinyurl.com/cz7ekrf

Page 1 is a picture of a fully loaded SD8 with
capacitor installed. Measured noise in the low
frequency spectrum was about 250 millivolts peak
to peak, 77 mV RMS.

Page 2 shows what happens when the capacitor is
removed . . . 760 mV pk-pk and 72 mV RMS.

In other words, no significant change. Alternator
noise on the bus in an airplane with a wound field
is MUCH higher and broader spectrum . . . but still
nothing that your electro-whizzies should care about.

I fiddled with some no battery ops too on pages 7, 8 and
9 . . . but didn't see how it performed with no capacitor.
I'm thinking that planning for no battery ops is a
capitulation to poor battery maintenance practices
and/or errors of conducting FMEA in deciding architecture.

Short answer is I don't think the capacitor adds
any useful benefit. If anyone runs across some testing
data that contradicts these findings, I'd be delighted
to know about it.



Bob . . .
I wonder if that capacitor is an artifact from back when PM alternators were operated in vehicles that were designed with no battery. Not unlike the avionics master as a holdover from the prehistoric germanium semiconductor days.

Charlie
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:25 pm    Post subject: Rotax Charging System Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
I wonder if that capacitor is an artifact from back when PM alternators were operated in vehicles that were designed with no battery. Not unlike the avionics master as a holdover from the prehistoric germanium semiconductor days.

Charlie

An excellent hypothesis . . . but it seems
it equally likely that somebody looked at that
full wave rectifier downstream of an AC
source and thought, "Gee, every circuit like
that in the past has had a capacitor across
the output . . . shucks . . . why not?"

It's deceptively easy to buy into conventional
wisdom. I was firmly in the camp followers for
'the battery is your ship's best power filter.' I
used to preach the doctrine myself. Then one
day, I had to write a test report some sample
batteries and the requester asked me to see if
the samples were any 'better filters' than
the products we were buying.

No big deal . . . but the data gathered was
a big deal. Totally blew the old saw into
itty-bitty pieces. Intuitively, we all KNEW
that batteries didn't take on serious charge
below 13.5 nor would the deliver serious
energy above 12.5. so what happens in that
fuzzy area . . . very little.

I was pretty stunned with that realization . . .
and embarrassed that a MIL-STD-704 knowledge-nugget
I'd worked with for decades was telling me the same
thing . . .

[img]cid:.0[/img]

Noise levels to be EXPECTED in a normally operating
28VDC system over the range of 1000 to 5000 Hz were
1.0VRMS or 2.8V pk-pk . . . with fall-offs at
each end. In other words, as a normal state of
affairs, pk-pk noise can be as much as 10% of
system voltages.


We know that batteries stand off LARGE perturbations
above 13.5 and below 12.5 but that would hardly
qualify as a 'filtering' function.



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:08 am    Post subject: Rotax Charging System Reply with quote

At 10:24 PM 9/17/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
I wonder if that capacitor is an artifact from back when PM alternators were operated in vehicles that were designed with no battery. Not unlike the avionics master as a holdover from the prehistoric germanium semiconductor days.

Charlie

An excellent hypothesis . . . but it seems
it equally likely that somebody looked at that
full wave rectifier downstream of an AC
source and thought, "Gee, every circuit like
that in the past has had a capacitor across
the output . . . shucks . . . why not?"

Let's noodle some of the math that helps
us figure out just how effective a capacitor
might be for 'filtering' a PM alternator system:

A fundamental quality of capacitors is described
by this formula:

Volts/Second = Amps/Farad

meaning that if you apply 1 amp of constant
current to a 1 Farad capacitor, you'll see
voltage across the capacitor rise at a rate
of 1 Volt per Second.

How rapidly will the voltage change
across at 22,000uF capacitor in a
PM alternator system with 10A load
assuming the positive excursion has just
charged the capacitor to the expected peak
voltage?

V/S = 10/0.022 = 454 Volts/Second or let's
say about 500 mVolts/mSecond.

Adding a 500 mV/mS plot to the no-capacitor
plot of SD8 performance we see

[img]cid:.0[/img]

By inspection we can deduce that the addition of
22KuF to the output would have no appreciable effect
on the voltage plot shown. If we put a 47KuF cap
on it (less than 1/2 the slope) we might see a reduction
in pk-pk excursion to something on the order of 200mV
. . . but why bother? We know that appliances qualified to run
in aircraft EXPECT to see noises equal to or perhaps
greater than what's depicted above with no capacitor.

I might also add that automotive electrical systems
are completely devoid of electrical system noise
filters that address the spectrum of alternator
ripple and switching.

So if there is a reason based on physics for adding
capacitors to the PM alternators, it's not intuitively
clear.


Bob . . .


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Location: Udall, KS, USA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:08 am    Post subject: Rotax Charging System Reply with quote

Bob et al, I've had three instances where I've added a capacitor to a charging system. The first time was when a friend asked me to rewire the Harley Sportster he was resurrecting. It had a magneto for ignition, a generator for power and was kick start only. He didn't want a battery added. At that time CCI (Custom Chrome Inc, or as I called it ChiCom Importers) had a kit with a capacitor, a spring mount and a couple of connectors. It simply provided a load for the generator. I remember the lights had a pronounced flikker at idle rpm.
The second was with the Rotax two stroke installation manual, page 18-3 where there is a wiring diagram for installing the 866 080 rectifier without a battery . Above the diagram is the note; "Attention, To avoid excessive voltage in conjunction with the rectifier regulator 866080 a constant minimum ballast load of 1 amp is required" On the next page there is a diagram for installing that same rectifier with a battery and there is no capacitor.
Third, was installing a Rotax 912. The Installation manual, section 24-00-00 page 7 says a capacitor of 22,000 uF at 25V is required to protect the regulator and flatten voltage, along with the warning that if the battery or the bus is disconnected from the system with the engine running the capacitor will safely dissipate the charge from the generator (Rotax term) and "otherwise the regulator will be damaged".
Whether it's an old pilot's tale or not I don't know, but the consistent theme is that the capacitor is there to dissipate a charge and protect the rectifier.
Rick Girard

On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 8:43 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 10:24 PM 9/17/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
I wonder if that capacitor is an artifact from back when PM alternators were operated in vehicles that were designed with no battery. Not unlike the avionics master as a holdover from the prehistoric germanium semiconductor days.

Charlie

  An excellent hypothesis . . . but it seems
  it equally likely that somebody looked at that
  full wave rectifier downstream of an AC
  source and thought, "Gee, every circuit like
  that in the past has had a capacitor across
  the output . . . shucks . . . why not?"

  Let's noodle some of the math that helps
  us figure out just how effective a capacitor
  might be for 'filtering' a PM alternator system:

  A fundamental quality of capacitors is described
  by this formula:

  Volts/Second = Amps/Farad

  meaning that if you apply 1 amp of constant
  current to a 1 Farad capacitor, you'll see
  voltage across the capacitor rise at a rate
  of 1 Volt per Second.

  How rapidly will the voltage change
  across at 22,000uF capacitor in a
  PM alternator system with 10A load
  assuming the positive excursion has just
  charged the capacitor to the expected peak
  voltage?

  V/S = 10/0.022 = 454 Volts/Second or let's
  say about 500 mVolts/mSecond.

  Adding a 500 mV/mS plot to the no-capacitor
  plot of SD8 performance we see

[img]cid:.0[/img]

  By inspection we can deduce that the addition of
  22KuF to the output would have no appreciable effect
  on the voltage plot shown.  If we put a 47KuF cap
  on it (less than 1/2 the slope) we might see a reduction
  in pk-pk excursion to something on the order of 200mV
  . . . but why bother? We know that appliances qualified to run
  in aircraft EXPECT to see noises equal to or perhaps
  greater than what's depicted above with no capacitor.

  I might also add that automotive electrical systems
  are completely devoid of electrical system noise
  filters that address the spectrum of alternator
  ripple and switching.

  So if there is a reason based on physics for adding
  capacitors to the PM alternators, it's not intuitively
  clear.


  Bob . . .


--
“Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.”   Groucho Marx


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