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B&C switches
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 8:56 pm    Post subject: B&C switches Reply with quote

At 08:09 PM 5/22/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "blues750" <den_beaulieu(at)yahoo.com>

Preparing to wire up a small hydraulic pump to operate amphibious float wheels.
Spec sheet on the parker pump unit indicates to use a DPDT center off switch
rated for up to 20A DC at 12V. Looking at B&C S700 series -1. My concern is that the switch is rated for up to 15 VAC. Equivalent, or should I continue my search for a switch? If so, any pointers appreciated. [Wink]

Dave (the novice electrician/soon to be float flyer)

What's the make and part number for the pump/motor
you're working with?



Bob . . .


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blues750



Joined: 06 Jun 2015
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 7:54 pm    Post subject: Re: B&C switches Reply with quote

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
At 08:09 PM 5/22/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "blues750" <den_beaulieu>

Preparing to wire up a small hydraulic pump to operate amphibious float wheels.
Spec sheet on the parker pump unit indicates to use a DPDT center off switch
rated for up to 20A DC at 12V. Looking at B&C S700 series -1. My concern is that the switch is rated for up to 15 VAC. Equivalent, or should I continue my search for a switch? If so, any pointers appreciated. [Wink]

Dave (the novice electrician/soon to be float flyer)

What's the make and part number for the pump/motor
you're working with?

Bob . . .


Hi Bob. thanks for replying... the pump is a Parker /OilDyne 108 series hydraulic power unit. Product code 108 AE S 32 C LB 1 V 03 03.
The product code breaks down to the following:

A 108 power unit, 12 VDC Permanent Magnet, Standard Pump, .0321 CIPR, 46 cu. in. reservoir, reversible locking with back pressure, 7/16-20 ports, Vertical mount, 300 psi ports.

Again, based off the tech info performance chart, I find the current draw plot versus pressure comes out to be approx 13 Amps. I assume that is steady state versus start up.

If the B&C 15A rated switch can tolerate the amps but with a shorter life cycle that might be OK. The switch is not going to see 10,000 cycles in my lifeftime! A diode in-line may help as well?

Thanks for your interest, looking forward to seeing what I can learn!!

Dave


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 12:10 pm    Post subject: B&C switches Reply with quote

Quote:

Hi Bob. thanks for replying... the pump is a Parker /OilDyne 108 series hydraulic power unit. Product code 108 AE S 32 C LB 1 V 03 03.
The product code breaks down to the following:

A 108 power unit, 12 VDC Permanent Magnet, Standard Pump, .0321 CIPR, 46 cu. in. reservoir, reversible locking with back pressure, 7/16-20 ports, Vertical mount, 300 psi ports.

Again, based off the tech info performance chart, I find the current draw plot versus pressure comes out to be approx 13 Amps. I assume that is steady state versus start up.

If the B&C 15A rated switch can tolerate the amps but with a shorter life cycle that might be OK. The switch is not going to see 10,000 cycles in my lifeftime! A diode in-line may help as well?

Okay . . . Given that this is a permanent
magnet motor - inrush current will be significant.
As a general rule, motors don't play well downstream
of conventional fuses. Also, while the B&C S700
series switches may well demonstrate a 'satisfactory'
service life . . . this application is pushing the envelope.

If it were my airplane, I'd use the S700 switch to
control a relay . . .

[img]cid:.0[/img]

and protect the motor drive path with a 30
AMP current limiter . . .

[img]cid:.1[/img]

on a DIY holder wired like so . . .

[img]cid:.2[/img]


If you like, I've got all these parts in the
junk box . . . yours for the price of a mailing
address.

Otherwise, yeah . . . I think I'd seek out
a bit more robust toggle switch. But keep in mind
that published switch ratings are generally the
'resistive' load value . . . those need to be de-rated
at least by half if not 2/3 for motor loads. So a
30A rated switch would be likely to provide decent
longevity.



Bob . . .


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blues750



Joined: 06 Jun 2015
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 6:30 pm    Post subject: Re: B&C switches Reply with quote

[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]
Quote:

If it were my airplane, I'd use the S700 switch to
control a relay . . .

[img]cid:.0[/img]

and protect the motor drive path with a 30
AMP current limiter . . .

[img]cid:.1[/img]

on a DIY holder wired like so . . .

[img]cid:.2[/img]


If you like, I've got all these parts in the
junk box . . . yours for the price of a mailing
address.

Otherwise, yeah . . . I think I'd seek out
a bit more robust toggle switch. But keep in mind
that published switch ratings are generally the
'resistive' load value . . . those need to be de-rated
at least by half if not 2/3 for motor loads. So a
30A rated switch would be likely to provide decent
longevity.



Bob . . .

Thanks for the expert insight Bob. I was concerned about the inrush associated with the motor. As for your offer of helping to clean out your junk box - count me in! Any particular email address to send you my mailing info? Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and taking the time to do so...this list is an incredible resource!! Cheers Very Happy

Dave


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 7:39 am    Post subject: B&C switches Reply with quote

Quote:

Thanks for the expert insight Bob. I was concerned about the inrush associated with the motor. As for your offer of helping to clean out your junk box - count me in! Any particular email address to send you my mailing info? Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and taking the time to do so...this list is an incredible resource!! Cheers Very Happy

Go to my website and enter an 'order' but
just don't select any merchandise. That will
get your address enshrined for all eternity
(or until Matt's servers go dark).



Bob . . .


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blues750



Joined: 06 Jun 2015
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 7:55 am    Post subject: Re: B&C switches Reply with quote

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
Quote:

Thanks for the expert insight Bob. I was concerned about the inrush associated with the motor. As for your offer of helping to clean out your junk box - count me in! Any particular email address to send you my mailing info? Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and taking the time to do so...this list is an incredible resource!! Cheers Very Happy

Go to my website and enter an 'order' but
just don't select any merchandise. That will
get your address enshrined for all eternity
(or until Matt's servers go dark).



Bob . . .


Done! Thanks again Bob


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blues750



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Posts: 37

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 12:03 pm    Post subject: Re: B&C switches Reply with quote

Bob,

After pondering the wiring diagram you attached, I am also thinking that for my particular application I would need to use a DPDT type relay, along with a similar switch (S700-2-1)… am I on the right track? The pump motor will operate to lower or retract the gear via hydraulic actuators, and pump action is dependent on which motor lead is powered, (and not) hence the DPDT items.
I guess one could also use two SPST relays with the S700-2-1...?

Almost got things straight...I think...

Dave Very Happy


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 12:50 pm    Post subject: B&C switches Reply with quote

At 03:03 PM 5/26/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "blues750" <den_beaulieu(at)yahoo.com>

Bob,

After pondering the wiring diagram you attached, I am also thinking that for my particular application I would need to use a DPDT type relay, along with a similar switch (S700-2-1)… am I on the right track? The pump motor will operate to lower or retract the gear via hydraulic actuators, and pump direction is dependent on polarity, hence the need for the DPDT items.

Dave

Aha! A bi-directional electro-hydraulic system.
Okay, you need TWO relays. Your wiring looks
like this

https://goo.gl/f6zECm

. . . except your driving a hydraulic pump as
opposed to a flap motor . . . also, you probably
want to order an S700-1-4 (on)-off-(on) switch
from B&C. Spring loaded to the center OFF position.

I'll modify your care-package accordingly.



Bob . . .


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blues750



Joined: 06 Jun 2015
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 7:31 am    Post subject: Re: B&C switches Reply with quote

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
At 03:03 PM 5/26/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "blues750" <den_beaulieu>

Bob,

After pondering the wiring diagram you attached, I am also thinking that for my particular application I would need to use a DPDT type relay, along with a similar switch (S700-2-1)… am I on the right track? The pump motor will operate to lower or retract the gear via hydraulic actuators, and pump direction is dependent on polarity, hence the need for the DPDT items.

Dave

Aha! A bi-directional electro-hydraulic system.
Okay, you need TWO relays. Your wiring looks
like this

https://goo.gl/f6zECm

. . . except your driving a hydraulic pump as
opposed to a flap motor . . . also, you probably
want to order an S700-1-4 (on)-off-(on) switch
from B&C. Spring loaded to the center OFF position.

I'll modify your care-package accordingly.


Bob . . .


Thanks so very much Bob. Appreciate the experienced insight, along with your generosity and willingness to endure us "newbs" and teachable moments!

Cheers! Dave

(Switch is on order...)


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blues750



Joined: 06 Jun 2015
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: B&C switches Reply with quote

Aha! A bi-directional electro-hydraulic system.
Okay, you need TWO relays. Your wiring looks
like this

https://goo.gl/f6zECm


Bob . . .[/quote]
In this drawing it seems to me you would need to bring the 18AWG wire from the power source and first relay (+ up) over to the second relay
(+ down) via an 18 AWG wire...Y/N? If not, why not? As depicted it shows 22 AWG bringing the power to the second relay.

Thanks! Dave


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Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1276
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 3:50 pm    Post subject: Re: B&C switches Reply with quote

Good catch Dave.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 4:19 pm    Post subject: B&C switches Reply with quote

At 06:50 PM 5/29/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>

Good catch Dave.

--------
Joe Gores



Agreed . . . in fact, I stubbed my toe here.
The drawing I linked you to was not the last
iteration. I'm glad that the errors were so
gross as to raise the question!

Here's the real one https://goo.gl/qf9ihL

I've run out of ANL30 limiters. Got some more
coming that should be here Saturday. Will
mail your care package either Saturday or
Monday.







Bob . . .


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blues750



Joined: 06 Jun 2015
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 7:28 pm    Post subject: Re: B&C switches Reply with quote

--------
[/quote]
Agreed . . .

Here's the real one https://goo.gl/qf9ihL

I've run out of ANL30 limiters. Got some more
coming that should be here Saturday. Will
mail your care package either Saturday or
Monday.

Bob . . .[/quote]

OK, thanks for updated drawing. I note that the relays are powered thru and protected with a 3A c/b. Is the current draw on a relay stated anywhere as a spec typically? Reason I ask is that I have plenty of 5A and 1A breakers to tap but not sure if 1A is adequate for the relays.
Dave...


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:32 am    Post subject: Re: B&C switches Reply with quote

https://www.mouser.com/Electromechanical/Relays/Automotive-Relays/_/N-b19z1Z1yzvvqx?No=25&P=1z0x3ubZ1z0x3x8Z1z0x3c8Z1z0x3caZ1z0x1q9Z1z0x2rfZ1yzmqzwZ1z0x0x7Z1z0z812Z1z0jzjlZ1z0z5i5
Small relays draw about 1/10 of an amp. A 1 amp circuit breaker should be fine. I would add a diode across the relay coil with the banded end connected to positive. A diode will short out inductive voltage spikes to minimize arcing across switch contacts. Even a little 1N4148 diode will work, although its wire leads are not robust.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:40 am    Post subject: Re: B&C switches Reply with quote

Thanks Joe...good info!

Dave


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 4:06 pm    Post subject: B&C switches Reply with quote

At 12:40 PM 5/30/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "blues750" <den_beaulieu(at)yahoo.com>

Thanks Joe...good info!


Geesh . . . you guys wont let me get away
with anything . . . forgot the diodes . . .
go get the drawing again.

Thanks for the heads-up!


Bob . . .


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blues750



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Posts: 37

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: B&C switches Reply with quote

OK, have reviewed the new drawing (thank you Bob... Very Happy )...but have a couple more questions I am pondering regarding implementation.

(1) From my power source to the relay terminals (87). I would like to run a single 12 ga wire from the front of the aircraft where the ANL holder will be located and make a "Y" once I get near the relays for connection to each relay 87 terminal. Best way to fashion the "Y" ? My experience so far seems to say I cannot do a double wire splice/crimp with 12 AWG in a yellow connector. Similarly I would be doing the same thing with the gnd terminals (87A) so I could run a single ground wire forward to my firewall ground. So my question is how best to join two 12 AWG wires to a single 12AWG wire to fashion a "Y". I do have solder sleeves big enough...if that is acceptable? Open to any other ideas.

(2) What is the electrical symbology between the relay terminals (30) to the motor - best I can ref is some sort of light indicator?

(3) OK to crimp the diode leads in with the 22AWG terminals?
Appreciate any comments, insight and suggestions!
Dave...


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:31 pm    Post subject: B&C switches Reply with quote

At 08:20 PM 5/31/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "blues750" <den_beaulieu(at)yahoo.com>

OK, have reviewed the new drawing (thank you Bob... Very Happy )...but have a couple more questions I am pondering regarding implementation.

(1) From my power source to the relay terminals (87). I would like to run a single 12 ga wire from the front of the aircraft where the ANL holder will be located and make a "Y" once I get near the relays for connection to each relay 87 terminal. Best way to fashion the "Y" ? My experience so far seems to say I cannot do a double wire splice/crimp with 12 AWG in a yellow connector. Similarly I would be doing the same thing with the gnd terminals (87A) so I could run a single ground wire forward to my firewall ground. So my question is how best to join two 12 AWG wires to a single 12AWG wire to fashion a "Y". I do have solder sleeves big enough...if that is acceptable? Open to any other ideas.

How about mounting the relays as close to the ANL30
as practical and simply run two wires to the motor?
Mounting the relays close to battery contactor makes
all the wires on the ship-side really short.

The reason I took both 12AWG tot he ANL30 was for
that same reason . . . two terminals on one stud.


Quote:
(2) What is the electrical symbology between the relay terminals (30) to the motor - best I can ref is some sort of light indicator?

(3) OK to crimp the diode leads in with the 22AWG terminals?

Hmmmm good question. I was going to send
you pre-wired sockets to mate with the
relays. You would splice ship's wireing
to those flying leads. A soldered lap-splice under
heat shrink is fine . . . but makes it tough
to install diodes.

Here's an alternative: https://goo.gl/QTT74j

This shows an S704 with recessed tabs where
the pre-wired socket doesn't work.

The relays I have ar like this:

[img]cid:.0[/img]

Since you need to apply your own terminals
to the coils so you can add diodes, perhaps
the sockets are more bother than asset. Let's
go with taking ship's wires to the tabs with
your own terminals.


Another question: What's the plan-b for getting
gear down if your power is down or the motor
craps or a relay goes toast?


Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:35 pm    Post subject: Re: B&C switches Reply with quote

I could not find that symbol in this pdf:
https://www.noao.edu/ets/Mechanical/Policies/ANSI%20Y32.2-1975.pdf
My guess is that it is a splice.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:51 pm    Post subject: B&C switches Reply with quote

Quote:

(2) What is the electrical symbology between the relay terminals (30) to the motor - best I can ref is some sort of light indicator?

Splice. I presume your motor is fitted with flying
leads which will get spliced to 12AWG extensions.


Bob . . .


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