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Hang Start

 
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skidmk



Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 165
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:06 pm    Post subject: Hang Start Reply with quote

anyone seen this? I highly suspect it is the batteries, but.... I did use the EPU.

So. -7 celcius today in the great white north. Went out, preflight, nitro, fuel, everything in the green.

Normal start sequence with the little EPU, she starts up and gets to 20% RPM and sits there at 20%. nothing more, shut down. Again, same result.

got out the big epu (commercial for Falcons/Kingairs etc), same results, the epu kicks out 400 amp, then drops to zero (expect that) and the planes sits at 20%.

Egt's never over 575.

any thoughts? I am really thinking its batteries in the nose are weak or done (odyssey's that are fairly old)


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:27 pm    Post subject: Hang Start Reply with quote

1. Battery
2. High pressure fuel pump
3. Start box not going into final cycle

On March 31, 2018 17:08:50 "skidmk" <skidmk(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:


anyone seen this? I highly suspect it is the batteries, but.... I did use
the EPU.

So. -7 celcius today in the great white north. Went out, preflight,
nitro, fuel, everything in the green.

Normal start sequence with the little EPU, she starts up and gets to 20%
RPM and sits there at 20%. nothing more, shut down. Again, same result.

got out the big epu (commercial for Falcons/Kingairs etc), same results,
the epu kicks out 400 amp, then drops to zero (expect that) and the planes
sits at 20%.

Egt's never over 575.

any thoughts? I am really thinking its batteries in the nose are weak or
done (odyssey's that are fairly old)

--------
Mike &quot;Skidmk&quot; Bourget
Ottawa, Ontario


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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478948#478948


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Dawg



Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 321

PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:07 pm    Post subject: Hang Start Reply with quote

Batteries. Question; When you push the start button, tell me exactly what you hear. EXACTLY.
IU should hear the starter engade, (200 amps), then either the starter excellerating to 400 amps OR igniter going ticktick, ticktick, ticktick. NOT tick. tick. tick etc. sometimes ignites come before start acceleration sometimes the other way.
If you don't hear all 3 of those, DO NOT PUT THE FUEL TO IT.
New batteries or 24+ volt EPU.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------
From: skidmk <skidmk(at)gmail.com>
Date:2018/03/31 16:06 (GMT-07:00)
To: l29-list(at)matronics.com
Cc:
Subject: L29-List: Hang Start


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Dawg



Joined: 19 May 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:08 pm    Post subject: Hang Start Reply with quote

OR a starter box, igniter box, or ignitor plugs.

HUNG START.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------
From: skidmk <skidmk(at)gmail.com>
Date:2018/03/31 16:06 (GMT-07:00)
To: l29-list(at)matronics.com
Cc:
Subject: L29-List: Hang Start


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skidmk



Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 165
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Hang Start Reply with quote

ok.

we replaced our batteries today, start with EPU same results.

Exactly what I hear. the starter goes (200 amp), then the tick tick tick... not ticktick ticktick. The the 400 amp goes... egts' climb to 600, then drop off to 550 and stay there.

the mechanic last year did say the ignitors were on their last leg and should be replaced. We are sourcing them, but have had no luck so far.

Should we replace ignitors before start box? Is there anything I can do to start box in terms of checking it works? I know its mechanical, so could lubricate be sprayed on some of the gears or valves?

We'd prefer not to have to buy a ton of parts to figure out it was the ignitors. The tail is off our 2nd ship, I may swap the ignitors and see?

thanks for the replies.


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Dawg



Joined: 19 May 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:21 pm    Post subject: Hang Start Reply with quote

The ignitor box controls the start sequence so I don’t think it is the box.
Ticktick = both ignitors………..Tick tick is one plug.

Have you changed fuel filters lately? Sometimes if you don’t bleed the air out after filter change it won’t start.

I like the idea of first changing the plugs with the other engine. When you pull the plug see if it is sparking.

Quote:
On Apr 6, 2018, at 17:07, skidmk <skidmk(at)gmail.com> wrote:



ok.

we replaced our batteries today, start with EPU same results.

Exactly what I hear. the starter goes (200 amp), then the tick tick tick... not ticktick ticktick. The the 400 amp goes... egts' climb to 600, then drop off to 550 and stay there.

the mechanic last year did say the ignitors were on their last leg and should be replaced. We are sourcing them, but have had no luck so far.

Should we replace ignitors before start box? Is there anything I can do to start box in terms of checking it works? I know its mechanical, so could lubricate be sprayed on some of the gears or valves?

We'd prefer not to have to buy a ton of parts to figure out it was the ignitors. The tail is off our 2nd ship, I may swap the ignitors and see?

thanks for the replies.

--------
Mike &quot;Skidmk&quot; Bourget
Ottawa, Ontario




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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479142#479142











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Dawg



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:25 pm    Post subject: Hang Start Reply with quote

Does it do the same thing on ships batteries?
Quote:
On Apr 6, 2018, at 17:07, skidmk <skidmk(at)gmail.com> wrote:



ok.

we replaced our batteries today, start with EPU same results.

Exactly what I hear. the starter goes (200 amp), then the tick tick tick... not ticktick ticktick. The the 400 amp goes... egts' climb to 600, then drop off to 550 and stay there.

the mechanic last year did say the ignitors were on their last leg and should be replaced. We are sourcing them, but have had no luck so far.

Should we replace ignitors before start box? Is there anything I can do to start box in terms of checking it works? I know its mechanical, so could lubricate be sprayed on some of the gears or valves?

We'd prefer not to have to buy a ton of parts to figure out it was the ignitors. The tail is off our 2nd ship, I may swap the ignitors and see?

thanks for the replies.

--------
Mike &quot;Skidmk&quot; Bourget
Ottawa, Ontario




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479142#479142











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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:46 am    Post subject: Hang Start Reply with quote

Try first to change the plugs.
Best regards,
Jean

Quote:
Le 7 avr. 2018 à 00:07, skidmk <skidmk(at)gmail.com> a écrit :



ok.

we replaced our batteries today, start with EPU same results.

Exactly what I hear. the starter goes (200 amp), then the tick tick tick... not ticktick ticktick. The the 400 amp goes... egts' climb to 600, then drop off to 550 and stay there.

the mechanic last year did say the ignitors were on their last leg and should be replaced. We are sourcing them, but have had no luck so far.

Should we replace ignitors before start box? Is there anything I can do to start box in terms of checking it works? I know its mechanical, so could lubricate be sprayed on some of the gears or valves?

We'd prefer not to have to buy a ton of parts to figure out it was the ignitors. The tail is off our 2nd ship, I may swap the ignitors and see?

thanks for the replies.

--------
Mike &quot;Skidmk&quot; Bourget
Ottawa, Ontario




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479142#479142











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N777ZE



Joined: 27 Mar 2016
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Hang Start Reply with quote

I’ve got igniters and a ignition box if needed. Shoot me an offer/pm

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speedy11



Joined: 29 Jun 2015
Posts: 43
Location: Port Orange, FL

PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:12 am    Post subject: Hang Start Reply with quote

We discovered ours gave the same indications as your when starting on EPU, but got a normal start on ship's battery. Stan
Quote:
Time: 04:25:49 PM PST US
Subject: Re: Re: Hang Start
From: William Geipel <l129bs(at)gmail.com (l129bs(at)gmail.com)>


Does it do the same thing on ships batteries?


> On Apr 6, 2018, at 17:07, skidmk <skidmk(at)gmail.com (skidmk(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
>
>
> ok.
>
> we replaced our batteries today, start with EPU same results.
>
> Exactly what I hear. the starter goes (200 amp), then the tick tick tick...
not ticktick ticktick. The the 400 amp goes... egts' climb to 600, then drop
off to 550 and stay there.
>
> the mechanic last year did say the ignitors were on their last leg and should
be replaced. We are sourcing them, but have had no luck so far.
>
> Should we replace ignitors before start box? Is there anything I can do to start
box in terms of checking it works? I know its mechanical, so could lubricate
be sprayed on some of the gears or valves?
>
> We'd prefer not to have to buy a ton of parts to figure out it was the ignitors.
The tail is off our 2nd ship, I may swap the ignitors and see?
>
> thanks for the replies.
>
> --------
> Mike &quot;Skidmk&quot; Bourget
> Ottawa, Ontario


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skidmk



Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 165
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:38 am    Post subject: Re: Hang Start Reply with quote

Update:

first thanks to all reponses, love this little community

EPU connected:
Start normal, hear the fuel pump running, hear the clutch engage, the starter spins,
we hear the "secondary boost of amps" and everything spins much quicker, the plugs spark with the same intensity and frequency of our other L29 (so I don't think its the plugs anymore),
EGTS arc up to 600, fall back to 575 then 550 as she stays at 20%.

We then shut her all down. Went out, and hit air start without fuel etc, so we could hear the sparking, she sparks exactly like the other one we have (she starts fine)

I'm thinking start control box now.


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Dawg



Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 321

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:22 am    Post subject: Hang Start Reply with quote

Not trying to be condescending, just throwing things out there.

The start control box controls the start sequence. So if it is doing all 3 steps, what could the box not be doing? After 19 seconds the sequence is stopped by the start box. (4th step)

The ignitors work. Otherwise there would be no light off. If only one ignites, it would result in a HOT start.

It sounds like fuel flow. If the engine starts, EGT rises, RPM increases, it can only be fuel. (It could be air flow if it were an air starter. (Or the intake/exhaust covers where still installed) Just Kidding!

As I mentioned before, if the fuel filter was changed, did you bleed the fuel line?

Is the “Fire Cock” open completely?

During start, do you push the fuel shut off full forward?

When it is at 20%, have you tried pushing the throttle up a little?

Has this airplane flown before or is this a new project?
Bill
Quote:
On Apr 9, 2018, at 06:38, skidmk <skidmk(at)gmail.com> wrote:



Update:

first thanks to all reponses, love this little community

EPU connected:
Start normal, hear the fuel pump running, hear the clutch engage, the starter spins,
we hear the "secondary boost of amps" and everything spins much quicker, the plugs spark with the same intensity and frequency of our other L29 (so I don't think its the plugs anymore),
EGTS arc up to 600, fall back to 575 then 550 as she stays at 20%.

We then shut her all down. Went out, and hit air start without fuel etc, so we could hear the sparking, she sparks exactly like the other one we have (she starts fine)

I'm thinking start control box now.

--------
Mike &quot;Skidmk&quot; Bourget
Ottawa, Ontario




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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479190#479190











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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:12 am    Post subject: Hang Start Reply with quote

Fuel nozzle issue or main fuel pump pressure? Also spitballing.

ChristianSent from my iPhone
On Apr 9, 2018, at 08:22, William Geipel <l129bs(at)gmail.com (l129bs(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> L29-List message posted by: William Geipel <l129bs(at)gmail.com (l129bs(at)gmail.com)>

Not trying to be condescending, just throwing things out there.

The start control box controls the start sequence. So if it is doing all 3 steps, what could the box not be doing? After 19 seconds the sequence is stopped by the start box. (4th step)

The ignitors work. Otherwise there would be no light off. If only one ignites, it would result in a HOT start.

It sounds like fuel flow. If the engine starts, EGT rises, RPM increases, it can only be fuel. (It could be air flow if it were an air starter. (Or the intake/exhaust covers where still installed) Just Kidding!

As I mentioned before, if the fuel filter was changed, did you bleed the fuel line?

Is the “Fire Cock” open completely?

During start, do you push the fuel shut off full forward?

When it is at 20%, have you tried pushing the throttle up a little?

Has this airplane flown before or is this a new project?
Bill
Quote:
On Apr 9, 2018, at 06:38, skidmk <skidmk(at)gmail.com (skidmk(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

--> L29-List message posted by: "skidmk" <skidmk(at)gmail.com (skidmk(at)gmail.com)>

Update:

first thanks to all reponses, love this little community

EPU connected:
Start normal, hear the fuel pump running, hear the clutch engage, the starter spins,
we hear the "secondary boost of amps" and everything spins much quicker, the plugs spark with the same intensity and frequency of our other L29 (so I don't think its the plugs anymore),
EGTS arc up to 600, fall back to 575 then 550 as she stays at 20%.

We then shut her all down. Went out, and hit air start without fuel etc, so we could hear the sparking, she sparks exactly like the other one we have (she starts fine)

I'm thinking start control box now.

--------
Mike &quot;Skidmk&quot; Bourget
Ottawa, Ontario


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479190#479190


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skidmk



Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 165
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:30 am    Post subject: Re: Hang Start Reply with quote

Thanks so much Bill.

1. Not a project, she’s been flying quite a bit
2. Last week, normal start but stayed at 20% for almost the whole 60 secs, then she “kicked” up and went to normal rpm and egts.
3. A couple of days later we’ve been experiencing thisnissue.
4. Today swapped igniters. No joy.
5. Fuel is leaking after the start attempt. (In the can the. Out thebtail, we have nice white thick exhaust during the attempt.
6 stays at 20% with reducing Egt’s, then I shut down.

All plugs and covers removed. Wink

Firecock fully open.
No fuel system service
Fuel pressure is at 8kgs per cm2 during this sequence.

Mike


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skidmk



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Hang Start Reply with quote

We will check filter (I doubt it, was serviced <10 hours ago). Then we'll try and adjust the automatic starting device, as it seems to be a fuel issue.

it is attached to the fuel pump housing, opposite to the pump/ancillary drive shaft.

If any one has one of these laying about please pm me.

thanks

Skid


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dkloiber



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:55 am    Post subject: Re: Hang Start Reply with quote

Sounds like you are not getting a flame over in all combustion chambers. Check your fuel injectors. One might be clogged and you are not getting a perfect spray pattern.

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Dawg



Joined: 19 May 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:43 am    Post subject: Hang Start Reply with quote

I was thinking of the injectors. But it was flying a short time ago. How about bad fuel?

Bad fuel could cause bad injectors and if there are enough green plants growing it……. Prist………..

Hard to believe it will be the high pressure pump. But u never know……
Quote:
On Apr 26, 2018, at 05:55, dkloiber <dakl(at)gmx.com> wrote:



Sounds like you are not getting a flame over in all combustion chambers. Check your fuel injectors. One might be clogged and you are not getting a perfect spray pattern.




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skidmk



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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:38 am    Post subject: Re: Hang Start . ***UPDATE*** Reply with quote

many thanks to all who got involved. As it turns out it was the HP fuel pump afterall. Switch it out, it immediately when to 31%, a couple clicks on the ground adjust and 35% was obtained. 3 small fuel leaks where the pump associated with the pump replacement.

Hopefully, she'll be back together and flying

this winter though, the injectors are coming out for a good sonic cleaning.

Cheers

Skid


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