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Asleep...now waking up

 
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bob.verwey(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:48 am    Post subject: Asleep...now waking up Reply with quote

So then let me put a question out there. To do with using ECM's...on automotive engine conversions...what kind of signal is derived from the Lamda sensor?  What I am wondering is how one can influence mixture by changing the feedback from said sensor to the ECM....IOW fooling it into changing the mixture....say with a rheostat? 
On 07 Mar 2018 6:19 PM, "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com (rene(at)felker.com)> wrote:
Quote:

Still listening…..just nothing to say.  Smile
 
Rene'
[url=tel:(801)%20721-6080]801-721-6080[/url]
 
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)> On Behalf Of Henry Roden
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2018 9:01 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Asleep?
 
Has everyone gone to sleep or is it just me that has seen no new messages in the last week or so?

Henry
 

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yellowduckduo(at)gmail.co
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:28 am    Post subject: Asleep...now waking up Reply with quote

It depends on the ECM and what sensor is being used.

Older narrow band sensors rapidly switch between about 0 volts and about 1 volt and the ecm generally will throw a fault code if it does not switch back and forth quite frequently.
Newer units use wide band sensors that require fairly complex controllers that often generate up to 5 volts output.
It is difficult to use any of the sensor modifications for long term mixture control with an automotive ecm. They are smart enough to start throwing fault codes and various limp modes if a signal is out of range for very long.
Ken
On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 11:47 AM, Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com (bob.verwey(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
So then let me put a question out there. To do with using ECM's...on automotive engine conversions...what kind of signal is derived from the Lamda sensor?  What I am wondering is how one can influence mixture by changing the feedback from said sensor to the ECM....IOW fooling it into changing the mixture....say with a rheostat? 
On 07 Mar 2018 6:19 PM, "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com (rene(at)felker.com)> wrote:
Quote:

Still listening…..just nothing to say.  Smile
 
Rene'
[url=tel:(801)%20721-6080]801-721-6080[/url]
 
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)> On Behalf Of Henry Roden
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2018 9:01 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Asleep?
 
Has everyone gone to sleep or is it just me that has seen no new messages in the last week or so?

Henry
 

Virus-free. www.avast.com
 




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echristley(at)att.net
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:56 am    Post subject: Asleep...now waking up Reply with quote

Lead poisons the sensors fairly quickly for control use.  It will remain useful for manual mixture control for quite a while, but the lead slows the response to changes.  Most ECMs needs millisecond updates to keep the mixture under control, but the lead will slow it to tenths of seconds.
I use a narrowband gauge for mixture control, and that does work quite well


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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:55 am    Post subject: Asleep...now waking up Reply with quote

Before using a stock auto controller, ask yourself if you have the source code and the software engineering chops to analyze & clean the code. Without both, you'll never know when the cpu will decide something isn't right & go into limp home mode.
Charlie
On Mar 7, 2018, at 12:34 PM, yellowduckduo <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
It depends on the ECM and what sensor is being used.

Older narrow band sensors rapidly switch between about 0 volts and about 1 volt and the ecm generally will throw a fault code if it does not switch back and forth quite frequently.
Newer units use wide band sensors that require fairly complex controllers that often generate up to 5 volts output.
It is difficult to use any of the sensor modifications for long term mixture control with an automotive ecm. They are smart enough to start throwing fault codes and various limp modes if a signal is out of range for very long.
Ken
On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 11:47 AM, Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com (bob.verwey(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
So then let me put a question out there. To do with using ECM's...on automotive engine conversions...what kind of signal is derived from the Lamda sensor? What I am wondering is how one can influence mixture by changing the feedback from said sensor to the ECM....IOW fooling it into changing the mixture....say with a rheostat?
On 07 Mar 2018 6:19 PM, "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com (rene(at)felker.com)> wrote:
Quote:

Still listening…..just nothing to say. Smile

Rene'
[url=tel:(801)%20721-6080]801-721-6080[/url]

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)> On Behalf Of Henry Roden
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2018 9:01 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Asleep?

Has everyone gone to sleep or is it just me that has seen no new messages in the last week or so?

Henry


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theidtke(at)cox.net
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:00 pm    Post subject: Asleep...now waking up Reply with quote

It is true that lead fouls the sensor fairly quickly, probably less than 100 hours in my investigation and experience.  That said a couple things
<![if !supportLists]>1. <![endif]>In my case I am using an Innovate Motorsports MTX-L gauge paired with a wideband Bosch sensor.  I have cleaned the sensor in MEK once and recalibrated it once as well.  This seems to extend the life by a little bit but in the end, I have already planned for frequent sensor replacement.  I look at it as the cost of flying and for having chosen a Mazda 3-Rotor with ECU controlled injectors (ala Tracy Crook).
<![if !supportLists]>2. <![endif]>Most “modern” ECUs will accept input from a wideband sensor and “self adjust” based on the readings.  Even the “old school” Tracy Crook ECU actually does use the O2 sensor input which makes programming it a little better.  There is a knob on his unit that allows manual mixture adjustments and it does work but am not sure what electronics are involved in the process (rheostat?)
<![if !supportLists]>3. <![endif]>Analog output (basically voltage) on my MTX-L (2 independent channels/leads) is programmable and I have one wired to Tracy’s ECU and the other to the EFIS.  Both are set to wideband 0v to 5v and corresponding A/F ratio….  NOTE – I am taking output AFTER the gauge does what it does to the sensor signal.  I gave up trying to intercept the signal and do anything productive with it……
Not sure any of this helps, but for what it is worth, I am WAY happier KNOWING my A/F mixture and making minor tweaks (again Tracy Crook EC3) along the way….
Trent

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Christley
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2018 10:56 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Asleep...now waking up

Lead poisons the sensors fairly quickly for control use. It will remain useful for manual mixture control for quite a while, but the lead slows the response to changes. Most ECMs needs millisecond updates to keep the mixture under control, but the lead will slow it to tenths of seconds.



I use a narrowband gauge for mixture control, and that does work quite well.







On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 12:29 PM, yellowduckduo <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)> wrote:


It depends on the ECM and what sensor is being used.

Older narrow band sensors rapidly switch between about 0 volts and about 1 volt and the ecm generally will throw a fault code if it does not switch back and forth quite frequently.

Newer units use wide band sensors that require fairly complex controllers that often generate up to 5 volts output.

It is difficult to use any of the sensor modifications for long term mixture control with an automotive ecm. They are smart enough to start throwing fault codes and various limp modes if a signal is out of range for very long.

Ken


On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 11:47 AM, Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com (bob.verwey(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
So then let me put a question out there. To do with using ECM's...on automotive engine conversions...what kind of signal is derived from the Lamda sensor?
What I am wondering is how one can influence mixture by changing the feedback from said sensor to the ECM....IOW fooling it into changing the mixture....say with a rheostat?

On 07 Mar 2018 6:19 PM, "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com (rene(at)felker.com)> wrote:
Still listening…..just nothing to say. Smile



Rene'

801-721-6080



From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server (at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-aeroelectric-list-serve r(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)> On Behalf Of Henry Roden
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2018 9:01 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.co m (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Asleep?



Has everyone gone to sleep or is it just me that has seen no new messages in the last week or so?
Henry





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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:18 pm    Post subject: Asleep...now waking up Reply with quote

At 10:47 AM 3/7/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
So then let me put a question out there. To do with using ECM's...on automotive engine conversions...what kind of signal is derived from the Lamda sensor?
What I am wondering is how one can influence mixture by changing the feedback from said sensor to the ECM....IOW fooling it into changing the mixture....say with a rheostat?

The 'lambda sensor' detects the presense
of oxygen in the engine's exhaust gasses.
It outputs a 0-1000 millivolt level DC signal
that is indicative of oxygen the exhaust
stream.

Here's a general run-down on the technology
and practice.

https://goo.gl/dKy9JW

Depending on which type of O2 sensors
are in your system, they'll present
a voltage on the order of 450 millvolts
at stoichiometric fuel mixture. You
can 'spoof' the signal into the ECM
by applying a 'bias current' to the sensor's
output . . . the magnitude depends on the
sensor's output impedance.

I wasn't able to find any mention of output
impedance for these devices . . . but it
isn't difficult to measure. Is your system
installed and running?



Bob . . .


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