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Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17

 
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brentcameron61(at)gmail.c
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:24 pm    Post subject: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17 Reply with quote

While I fully agree with many of your points about preventing an accident in the first place, I emphatically disagree with your point about the pointlessness of seatbelts in our Zenith’s because of impact speed.  I’ve had the (extremely) unpleasant experience of looking at the remains of wreckage of a stall/spin crash in a C-172 that could well have been survivable except for the fact that the pilot got impaled on the control column and had his brains all over the instrument panel because he wasn’t wearing his shoulder belt properly.  His legs weren’t broken but even at 50 mph, there is no way you could hold yourself from bending like a piece of wet noodle around a waist seatbelt - basic physics - the force of impact goes up with the square of the velocity.  
Our airplanes have a very slow stall speed so unless you rip the wings off, spiral in at high speed due to lack of visual references or fly into the ground because you were where you shouldn’t be, there is no reason why the impact with the ground has to be at a speed that is not survivable. In a forced landing, if you can get the airplane turned into any sort of a headwind, you could certainly reduce the impact velocity to something that is very survivable. 

I’m putting 4 point harnesses in mine.  

On Dec 26, 2017, 3:32 AM -0500, Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net>, wrote:
Quote:
Hi Joe, I built and fly a similar plane to the 650 (CH601XL).  I use the three point belts included in my kit. I don't see seat belts having the same purpose in light planes as they do in automobiles.  They are necessary to keep people in their seats in turbulent air rather than to provide protection in frontal collisions.  If you collide with a mountain or even a solid hit on a tree at normal flying speeds (120 kts)  you are going to die no matter what sort of restraints you have.  Safety in aviation (in my opinion) comes from maintaining control of the plane along with keeping it away from solid objects.  Flying close to the ground or other solid objects is very dangerous.  Losing control of you plane for any reason is also dangerous.  Most airplane accidents result from dangerous flying such as hot dogging or high speed flight close to the ground.  There are also plenty of stall/spin accidents that start with an approach that passes the runway center line on turn to final and the pilot makes a steep turn while flying low and slow.  I suggest you would do a lot more to protect yourself and your passengers by installing an angle of attack instrument of some sort and learning how to use it to prevent stalls than by installing fancy seat belts.  I have a home built lift reserve indicator (LRI) that I built for less than $50 while waiting for one of my sub-kits which performs a similar function.  You can find plans for an LRI for free on the net. I should also mention that learning to fly on instruments and handling unusual attitudes on instruments can also go a long way toward saving your life.  It would be good to go all the way and get an instrument rating but just being able to fly straight and level along with the 180 level turn and unusual attitude recovery are the really important skills.  Even for strictly VFR pilots it is only a matter of when rather than if that you will run into situations where lack of ability to fly on the gauges means you are unable to maintain control of your plane. Good luck Paul Camas, WA N773PM On 12/25/2017 9:10 PM, Joe wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
-> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Joe " <backstagelive(at)gmail.com> (backstagelive(at)gmail.com)

Merry Christmas fellow builders!

Another builder and I are having a discussion about restraints for a
601-650. When I open videos sometimes i see pilots wearing just seat belts,
other times I see them wearing shoulder harnesses as well.

I am not an engineer, and I don't possess the skills of a designer, but I
have owned a wrecker service, and I have seen pictures of wrecked aircraft
that you would think you could walk away from, yet sometimes pilots aren't
that lucky. I know there are many forces at work including the G forces when
you hit the ground, yet engineers tell us that many of these accidents are
very survivable depending on what angle you hit the ground and the
deceleration force.

Here are some questions we would like to discuss.

How many of you just use the seat belt with no other restraints?

How many of you use a 4 point restraint and if you do, would you recommend
it to other builders?

Is there anyone using a 5 point restraint and if you are, where and how are
you attaching it to your spar?

Any help you can give would be most appreciated.

Joe in Oshkosh (and another fellow builder)



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:46 pm    Post subject: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17 Reply with quote

That is te great thing about Homebuilt and Experimental... You can do what ever you think is good.

The big problem (was more easy to notice in wooden airplanes) was the "improvement" that the builder do "for safety" for example; add 1/8" of wood in thickness to each piece he planned... Put the next size in bolts... Etc... Until all this extra weight made the airplane dangerously unsafe (overweight or out of the C/G range).
A local old timer builder used to say that the Cool Factor was the sound of staight stacks in the engine... Fear Factor, when the builder added useless weight "for safety"...
He always told us... (was the time when all were plans built from scratch) Build your plane as light as possible... Build it to fly not to crash. Chichens are heavy and not intended to fly...

We should think how to improve our skills and judgement to fly better, not how to avoid getting killed in a crash... we have to enjoy flying, chose good climate, etc... not suffer the experience...

Build it as close to the plans as possible and fly it as much as possible, practice is the best way to avoid incindents.

From: Brent Cameron <brentcameron61(at)gmail.com>
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2017 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17


While I fully agree with many of your points about preventing an accident in the first place, I emphatically disagree with your point about the pointlessness of seatbelts in our Zenith’s because of impact speed. I’ve had the (extremely) unpleasant experience of looking at the remains of wreckage of a stall/spin crash in a C-172 that could well have been survivable except for the fact that the pilot got impaled on the control column and had his brains all over the instrument panel because he wasn’t wearing his shoulder belt properly. His legs weren’t broken but even at 50 mph, there is no way you could hold yourself from bending like a piece of wet noodle around a waist seatbelt - basic physics - the force of impact goes up with the square of the velocity.

Our airplanes have a very slow stall speed so unless you rip the wings off, spiral in at high speed due to lack of visual references or fly into the ground because you were where you shouldn’t be, there is no reason why the impact with the ground has to be at a speed that is not survivable. In a forced landing, if you can get the airplane turned into any sort of a headwind, you could certainly reduce the impact velocity to something that is very survivable.


I’m putting 4 point harnesses in mine.


On Dec 26, 2017, 3:32 AM -0500, Paul Mulwitz <psm(at)att.net>, wrote:
Quote:
Hi Joe,

I built and fly a similar plane to the 650 (CH601XL). I use the three point belts included in my kit.

I don't see seat belts having the same purpose in light planes as they do in automobiles. They are necessary to keep people in their seats in turbulent air rather than to provide protection in frontal collisions. If you collide with a mountain or even a solid hit on a tree at normal flying speeds (120 kts) you are going to die no matter what sort of restraints you have.

Safety in aviation (in my opinion) comes from maintaining control of the plane along with keeping it away from solid objects. Flying close to the ground or other solid objects is very dangerous. Losing control of you plane for any reason is also dangerous. Most airplane accidents result from dangerous flying such as hot dogging or high speed flight close to the ground. There are also plenty of stall/spin accidents that start with an approach that passes the runway center line on turn to final and the pilot makes a steep turn while flying low and slow. I suggest you would do a lot more to protect yourself and your passengers by installing an angle of attack instrument of some sort and learning how to use it to prevent stalls than by installing fancy seat belts. I have a home built lift reserve indicator (LRI) that I built for less than $50 while waiting for one of my sub-kits which performs a similar function. You can find plans for an LRI for free on the net.

I should also mention that learning to fly on instruments and handling unusual attitudes on instruments can also go a long way toward saving your life. It would be good to go all the way and get an instrument rating but just being able to fly straight and level along with the 180 level turn and unusual attitude recovery are the really important skills. Even for strictly VFR pilots it is only a matter of when rather than if that you will run into situations where lack of ability to fly on the gauges means you are unable to maintain control of your plane.

Good luck

Paul
Camas, WA
N773PM

On 12/25/2017 9:10 PM, Joe wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
-> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Joe " <backstagelive(at)gmail.com> (backstagelive(at)gmail.com)

Merry Christmas fellow builders!

Another builder and I are having a discussion about restraints for a
601-650. When I open videos sometimes i see pilots wearing just seat belts,
other times I see them wearing shoulder harnesses as well.

I am not an engineer, and I don't possess the skills of a designer, but I
have owned a wrecker service, and I have seen pictures of wrecked aircraft
that you would think you could walk away from, yet sometimes pilots aren't
that lucky. I know there are many forces at work including the G forces when
you hit the ground, yet engineers tell us that many of these accidents are
very survivable depending on what angle you hit the ground and the
deceleration force.

Here are some questions we would like to discuss.

How many of you just use the seat belt with no other restraints?

How many of you use a 4 point restraint and if you do, would you recommend
it to other builders?

Is there anyone using a 5 point restraint and if you are, where and how are
you attaching it to your spar?

Any help you can give would be most appreciated.

Joe in Oshkosh (and another fellow builder)




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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
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