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Electronic Ignition spark advance signal boost

 
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:31 am    Post subject: Electronic Ignition spark advance signal boost Reply with quote

Quote:

The Electroair spark advance signal voltage output is from 0.00V to 0.40V, and is scaled 0.01 volt per every degree of advance. So just to be clear:
0.01V = 1 degree of advance
0.10V = 10 degrees of advance
0.28V = 28 degrees of advance

What I would like to achieve is to amplify the spark advance signal voltage x 10 so that the GRT could see every 0.1V as 1 degree of spark advance, so again for clarity:
0.1V = 1 degree of advance
1.0V = 10 degrees of advance
2.8V = 28 degrees of advance

There are hundreds of combinations of jelly-bean
parts that would suffice to your design goals.
My personal favorite of the moment is the Analog
Devices AD626 instrumentation grade amplifier.
It works well at 5.0 volt supply, has a huge
common mode input range, features factory trimmed
preset gains of 10 or 100. Has an output range
that easily brackets your requirement (0.03 to 4.7v).

The beauty of this critter is that no external
resistors or calibration adjustments are needed
to address your task.

https://goo.gl/Q3SYvj

They're a little pricey compared to some other
candidates

https://goo.gl/fxuF4Z

but I think the convenience of minimizing
external components combined with the simplicity
of calibration more than offsets the difference
in cost. I used this chip in dozens of data
acquisition tasks at Beech . . . it's still
a work-horse in my toolbox of get-er-done parts.

[img]cid:.0[/img]





Bob . . .


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Airdog77



Joined: 24 Nov 2013
Posts: 79
Location: Northern Virginia

PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition spark advance signal boost Reply with quote

Bob,

Wow.... thanks! Really takes the guesswork out of configuring the amp for a gain of 10.

I'm thinking it most likely doesn't matter, but just to be certain: the Electroair spark advance signal is only sent out over one wire, so I would not have any input from the Electroair unit to Pin 1 on the AD626. I assume this is ok for this configuration?

Thanks again!

Regards,
Wade


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:46 am    Post subject: Electronic Ignition spark advance signal boost Reply with quote

At 06:27 PM 12/17/2017, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Airdog77" <Airdog77(at)gmail.com>

Bob,

Wow.... thanks! Really takes the guesswork out of configuring the amp for a gain of 10.

I'm thinking it most likely doesn't matter, but just to be certain: the Electroair spark advance signal is only sent out over one wire, so I would not have any input from the Electroair unit to Pin 1 on the AD626. I assume this is ok for this configuration?

Hmmmmm . . . this offers potential for a different
kind of ground loop effect . . .

Any difference in voltage between 'ground' on the
ignition electronics and the EFIS electronics will
manifest as an offset in the system's calibration.

Just for grins, let's build this 'adapter'
with ground wires that go both directions . . .
just hook up the ignition system end and leave
the EFIS end open.

This configuration will offset the amplified
signal with a 1x influence . . . hooking
up only the EFIS end would put a 10x gain on the
displayed value. I'm thinking the first option
offers a high probability for satisfactory
performance.



Bob . . .


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Airdog77



Joined: 24 Nov 2013
Posts: 79
Location: Northern Virginia

PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:36 am    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition spark advance signal boost Reply with quote

Bob,

Sorry, but I'm having a hard time implementing this in my novice brain:

Quote:
just hook up the ignition system end
at Pin 8

Quote:
and leave the EFIS end open.
Is this the ground connection that crosses between to the 5V lead (pin 6) via the 0.1 capacitor and the signal ground lead?

Any possible way you could diagram this out?

Thanks!
Wade


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:08 am    Post subject: Electronic Ignition spark advance signal boost Reply with quote

At 10:10 PM 12/18/2017, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Airdog77" <Airdog77(at)gmail.com>

Hi Ken,

I talked with Electroair earlier today. They are taking a look at the AD6262 and the best place to tie in the ground. It doesn't show up in the manual and honestly I forgot about it, but on the experimental version there is a ground wire coming off the Electroair controller unit. Their initial thought is that would be the best place to tie in the A626 ground input.

Agreed . . . to a point. The (-) connection of
the AD626 to ElectroAir is a (-)SIGNAL lead paired
with the (+)SIGNAL lead and has nothing in common
with the POWER AND SIGNAL GROUNDS that run from
the AD626 to the EFIS . . . per my corrected diagram
posted last night.

If you're in conversation with anyone at ElectroAir,
it might be useful to forward this message along
with last night's posting to them.



Bob . . .


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andymeyer



Joined: 31 Mar 2015
Posts: 15
Location: SW MI

PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition spark advance signal boost Reply with quote

I am looking at a similar application, but was leaning towards the AD623 instead. IT appears that in the 623, I can reference my output on pin 7 to a ground of my choosing on pin 8 - a GND that I would tie to my EFIS. A ground that may be different than that of my ignition system.

The 626 seems to require only one ground on Pin 2. The 626 is nice that I can filter with one cap, but I think (if I understand this correctly) the different grounds would be of more benefit and avoid a ground loop in my instrumentation.

I can't find the minimum output voltage (not a datasheet reading guru yet) on the 623 however. My minimum input voltage will go down to about input ground (+/- .01V). With a 10x multiplier, how low can the 623 output? My Vs will be 3.3V and Vs- will be the same ground as the input signal.


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Eric Page



Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 102

PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition spark advance signal boost Reply with quote

There doesn’t seem to be an explicit specification for minimum output voltage in the AD623 datasheet, but...

See page 3. In the section on single supply gain error in Table 2, under test conditions, it shows a minimum output of 50mV for all gain settings.

The AD626 datasheet does explicitly state a minimum output of 30mV (under single supply output on page 2).

Eric


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:07 pm    Post subject: Electronic Ignition spark advance signal boost Reply with quote

At 02:18 PM 12/19/2017, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "andymeyer" <ameyer(at)mil-amax.com>

I am looking at a similar application, but was leaning towards the AD623 instead. IT appears that in the 623, I can reference my output on pin 7 to a ground of my choosing on pin 8 - a GND that I would tie to my EFIS. A ground that may be different than that of my ignition system.

The 626 seems to require only one ground on Pin 2. The 626 is nice that I can filter with one cap, but I think (if I understand this correctly) the different grounds would be of more benefit and avoid a ground loop in my instrumentation.

I can't find the minimum output voltage (not a datasheet reading guru yet) on the 623 however. My minimum input voltage will go down to about input ground (+/- .01V). With a 10x multiplier, how low can the 623 output? My Vs will be 3.3V and Vs- will be the same ground as the input signal.

The 623 is an instrumentation amplifier with
rail-to-rail output capability . . . but much
smaller common mode range.

However, it is suited to your task if you don't
mind adding a few more components around it.
I'm up to my fanny in alligators tonight and in
the morning, but I can calculate and sketch
an option which I'll post tomorrow sometime.



Bob . . .


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andymeyer



Joined: 31 Mar 2015
Posts: 15
Location: SW MI

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:27 am    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition spark advance signal boost Reply with quote

I'm feeding data to an Arduino SAMD21 from a Lightspeed Plasma 3 ignition... The SAMD21 (Rear module) will be in back by the engine (Long EZ) with a KTA259 EGT/CHT thermocouple sensor - the Lightspeed is about 5 feet of cable away. I was going to put a pair of 623's filtered to 1Hz corner next to the Lightspeed (tucked in the connector if I can) for MP and Timing and simple resistor bridge to drop the tach digital signal from 10V to 3.3V. A few more signals will go into the rear module as well.

Do I even bother putting the 623's close to the Lightspeed, or should I just transmit the low voltage signal (0 - .3V) to the rear module and amplify it there? Or even amplify it at all?

I've got the UI working for up front and it will get the data from the back via RS485. Up front, I'm going to add in a few more signals to the display... Possibly talking to and listening to my GNS430. (Fuel data, groundspeed...)
Eventually once things are working, I'm planning on a first attempt at building my own boards and 3D printing cases, etc... The KTA259 will be replaced with 8 MAX31855's at that time.
Any thoughts or input would be GREATLY appreciated.

Happy Flyin'!
Andy


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Airdog77



Joined: 24 Nov 2013
Posts: 79
Location: Northern Virginia

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition spark advance signal boost Reply with quote

Bob,

Quote:
If you're in conversation with anyone at ElectroAir,
it might be useful to forward this message along
with last night's posting to them.


I have been in conversation with Electroair. After relaying the info in these threads on op amps to them, and specifically the AD626, after a day or so of consideration from them the main feedback I got back was A) the ground from the controller unit would be the best bet in their opinion, and B) they wanted me to let them know what comes out of all my efforts on this.

I think I'll press forward with the AD626 with +In (signal) and -In (signal) coming from the Electroair.

Regards,
Wade


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Eric Page



Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 102

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:42 am    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition spark advance signal boost Reply with quote

Wade, here's a small (1.46" x 0.56") PCB to carry Bob's suggested circuit plus a voltage regulator...

https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/xwyh5mon

...and here's a Digi-Key shopping cart with the necessary parts...

http://www.digikey.com/short/qqfnwm

Connect 'IN+' to the Electroair ignition module advance signal and 'IN-' to the Electroair local ground. Connect 'BUS' and 'GND' to 12V and ground, and 'OUT' to the desired EIS input.

If you'd like, I'm happy to put this together and send it along with the other stuff. It will be about $22.50 with the shipping and tax from Digi-Key. I can just add this to the PayPal invoice for the voltage slump eliminator.

Eric


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Airdog77



Joined: 24 Nov 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition spark advance signal boost Reply with quote

Eric,

If you're sure you don't mind, that would be a huge help...

Thanks a million! (And to all the others collaborating on this).

Warm regards and Merry Christmas,
Wade


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Eric Page



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Posts: 102

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition spark advance signal boost Reply with quote

No problem. Lately I've been a little low on things to do in my "off" time, so I'd be glad to build it.

Parts and boards are ordered.

Eric


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Airdog77



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:52 am    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition spark advance signal boost Reply with quote

Excellent... thanks again.

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Airdog77



Joined: 24 Nov 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Electronic Ignition spark advance signal boost Reply with quote

Hi All,

Quick question on hooking up the AD626 op amp board that Eric is so graciously constructing for me.

I spliced a 22AWG ground wire to the main electronic ignition unit ground wire about 4-5" where it exits the case. My question pertains to the fact that the ground wire exiting the case is massive, about 12-14 AWG, so I'm thinking there's a good bit of juice transiting that wire.

So, in splicing in my 22AWG AD626 wire (for V IN-) should I use a protective resistor or diode on it before attaching to the AD626?

Yes, I'm still learning a lot of this stuff and would like not to be the one to fry up a nice piece of work of Eric's! Confused

Thanks,
Wade


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