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B&C Alternator and Voltage Regulator

 
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GlastarMatt



Joined: 13 Sep 2017
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:59 pm    Post subject: B&C Alternator and Voltage Regulator Reply with quote

Hi Bob,

I have a new B&C 60 amp alternator and the corresponding LR3C voltage regulator installed in an experimental Glastar.


All components are new since I thought they were causing the over voltage problem. The ship has about 1600 hours TT. 


Direct to the problem:


After I start the engine, the voltage steadily increases until the 5-amp field circuit trips, someplace over 15 volts.


I’ve gone through the Technical Manual for Model No. LR3C-14 and LR3C-28 Linear Regulator troubleshooting guide and the voltage and resistance checks meet standards.


I’ve also spent countless hours with TJ at B and C technical support trying to unravel this mystery. 


New parts include:
BC460-H alternator 
LR3C-14 voltage regulator 
Battery master solenoid
5-amp breaker
2-amp breaker
Toggle switch to activate the 5 and 2 amp breakers
Wire and crimps
3/8” ground braid cable


I’ve isolated the ship electrical system to:
  Sealed lead acid battery 
  LR3C voltage regulator 
  BC460-H 60 amp alternator
  Battery solenoid 


Power to energize the 5-amp and 2-amp voltage regulator, plus the magneto switch to activate the starter solenoid is directly off the battery.


To start the engine, I use a clip lead to ground the master solenoid switch. 


Nothing else is connected to the electrical system.


I’ve run a 3/8” ground braid cable from the alternator case to a brass ground bus bar. A second 3/8” ground braid cable runs from the battery to the steel frame, then to the brass bus bar with no splice in the middle.


The voltage regulator is grounded with an 18-ga wire from the ground stud and Terminal #7 to the brass bus bar.


Prior to isolating the ship’s electrical bus, I observed the amps clearly charging the battery, initially a high amp draw, and eventually the amps decreased to a single digit number, but the voltage would continue to climb well above the 14.4 volt factory set point.


Lastly;


With the engine running (steadily increasing voltage) Pin 6 showed 15.7 volts while Pin 4 showed 1.75 volts.  Could this weird reading point to the problem?


Pin 4 of 1.75 volts does not make sense.  


I’m stumped!  Can you offer me any insight?


Matt Freeman
Chugiak, AK
907-863-2204 Cell
AlaskaMatt(at)Hotmail.com (AlaskaMatt(at)Hotmail.com)


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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1900
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: B&C Alternator and Voltage Regulator Reply with quote

What are you using for a reference point when measuring voltages? I suggest that you use pin 7 of the LR-3 voltage regulator.
What is the voltage on pin 3 when there is high voltage?
Fill in the blanks on the B&C LR-3 troubleshooting guide and post them here.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:51 pm    Post subject: B&C Alternator and Voltage Regulator Reply with quote

And put a new battery in your hand held volt meter. A worn out battery has been known to give very inconsistant and variable readings.

On Oct 16, 2017 20:07, "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

What are you using for a reference point when measuring voltages?  I suggest that you use pin 7 of the LR-3 voltage regulator.
What is the voltage on pin 3 when there is high voltage?
Fill in the blanks on the B&C LR-3 troubleshooting guide and post them here.

--------
Joe Gores




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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:36 am    Post subject: B&C Alternator and Voltage Regulator Reply with quote

At 07:57 PM 10/16/2017, you wrote:
Quote:
Hi Bob,

I have a new B&C 60 amp alternator and the corresponding LR3C voltage regulator installed in an experimental Glastar.

All components are new since I thought they were causing the over voltage problem. The ship has about 1600 hours TT.

Direct to the problem:

After I start the engine, the voltage steadily increases until the 5-amp field circuit trips, someplace over 15 volts.

I’ve gone through the Technical Manual for Model No. LR3C-14 and LR3C-28 Linear Regulator troubleshooting guide and the voltage and resistance checks meet standards.

I’ve also spent countless hours with TJ at B and C technical support trying to unravel this mystery.

New parts include:
BC460-H alternator
LR3C-14 voltage regulator
Battery master solenoid
5-amp breaker
2-amp breaker
Toggle switch to activate the 5 and 2 amp breakers
Wire and crimps
3/8” ground braid cable

I’ve isolated the ship electrical system to:
Sealed lead acid battery
LR3C voltage regulator
BC460-H 60 amp alternator
Battery solenoid

Power to energize the 5-amp and 2-amp voltage regulator, plus the magneto switch to activate the starter solenoid is directly off the battery.

To start the engine, I use a clip lead to ground the master solenoid switch.

Nothing else is connected to the electrical system.

I’ve run a 3/8” ground braid cable from the alternator case to a brass ground bus bar. A second 3/8” ground braid cable runs from the battery to the steel frame, then to the brass bus bar with no splice in the middle.

The voltage regulator is grounded with an 18-ga wire from the ground stud and Terminal #7 to the brass bus bar.

Prior to isolating the ship’s electrical bus, I observed the amps clearly charging the battery, initially a high amp draw, and eventually the amps decreased to a single digit number, but the voltage would continue to climb well above the 14.4 volt factory set point.

Lastly;

With the engine running (steadily increasing voltage) Pin 6 showed 15.7 volts while Pin 4 showed 1.75 volts. Could this weird reading point to the problem?

Pin 4 of 1.75 volts does not make sense.

I’m stumped! Can you offer me any insight?

Matt Freeman
Chugiak, AK
907-863-2204 Cell
AlaskaMatt(at)Hotmail.com (AlaskaMatt(at)Hotmail.com)


Okay, let's extend your experiment a bit further.

First, disconnect system wiring to pin 3 (bus sense)
and jumper pin 3 to pin 6. Connect multimeter (-)
to pin 7, multimeter (+) to pin 3. Leave all
other wires to regulator per as originally
installed.

Start the engine and compare test voltage with
displayed voltages on the panel. Test voltage
should be stable at the regulator factory setpoint
and in close agreement with panel voltages.

Dismount the regulator and support it such that
the base is insulated from airframe. Disconnect
wire on pin 7 (ground) and run a new test wire
from 7 to some fastener on engine (we're looking
for a ground directly to crankcase).

Make the following connections to the regulator.

Disconnect existing wires from 6 and 3.
Jumper Pin 6 (field supply) and pin 3 (bus sense)
together. Then extend his connection to the alternator
B-terminal with a wire that has a 5A breaker in
the line.

This should make your alternator behave like a
'one-wire' machine where it gets excitation and
voltage sense from the b-terminal . . . further,
it comes on line immediately after engine starts.

The 1.75 volt value on pin 4 is not out of line.
This is the output to alternator field. This
voltage can be all over the place depending on
engine rpm and system loads.

The fact that your measured a value more than
zero but less than bus voltage says that the alternators
internal smarts are actively working to regulate
voltage. I have measured voltage on pin 4 as
low as 1.5 volts in cruising flight with light
loads.

With Hook your multimeter (-) to pin 7 ground.

With battery ON but engine not running, measure
voltage on pin (6) . . . it should be about 13.0
volts (battery voltage) then measure pin (4) which
should be about 1 volt lower. Exact number not
critical . . . it just needs to be high.

Hook multimeter (+) to pin (3/6) and start
the engine. The multimeter should immediately
rise to factory set point for the regulator . . .
14.2 volts or thereabouts and hold steady.

This will verify that the regulator/alternator
combination are capable of normal operations
independent of system variables. You can try
adding system loads and comparing voltage
on the multimeter with any voltage displays on
the panel. They should be in close agreement.

Assuming you are now seeing normal behavior,
return the regulator to its normal mounting
configuration, remove wire from 7 to crankcase.
Restore original system ground wire.

Restart the engine and see how the test
and panel voltages compare under variable system
loads.

If still good, remove jumper between 3 and 6.
Leave test wire from b-terminal to 6 in place
and restore original system bus sens wire to
pin 3.

Repeat the voltage measurements experiment
with engine off and running.

The final step would be to remove test wire
between 6 and b-terminal and restore system
filed supply source to pin 6.

At some point along these steps I would expect
to see the test and panel voltages to diverge.

The critter we're trying to chase out of the
woodpile is some anomaly in system wiring that
makes the regulator believe that bus voltage
is falling at pin 3 whereupon more voltage
is asserted on the field. Bus voltage then
rises to some point were pin 6 reached the
crowbar ov protection set point (15.8 to 16.4
volts).

The most likely sources for this divergence
are compromised conduction paths in either
bus sense, regulator ground or both.

Doing the hat-dance described above will help
us decide which gremlins are at work here.





Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:13 pm    Post subject: B&C Alternator and Voltage Regulator Reply with quote

At 11:49 PM 10/17/2017, you wrote:
Good evening Bob,

I finished building the Glastar in 1999 and yes, the system was stable. I wired the ship. The airplane has an O-320-D2J Lycoming engine with a fixed pitch prop.

I’d have to look at my records, but 4-years is about right when the gremlin started showing up.

<snip>

After more trouble shooting, different bus switch settings, I managed to smoke the EXP bus alternator polyfuse. Smoking the polyfuse I knew was a symptom not the problem. I sent the regulator back to B&C to see if there was damage. To my understanding, there was none.

. . . and I wouldn't expect any damage.


I sent the EXP bus for repair and thought I might have a chattering master solenoid, so the solenoid was also replaced. I also thought the EXP bus was the problem, so I isolated the EXP bus from the bus for troubleshooting. The EXP bus was not the problem.

how did 'chattering' manifest? Something
you could hear? Panel equipment misbehaving?

I also tried using the Ford mechanical regulator, using your wiring diagram. The first time I thought I may have wired it wrong because I smoked the regulator. I wired a second one and smoked that too.

"Mechanical"? Dit it look like this . . .

http://tinyurl.com/y842w3o6

or was it a taller one like this?

http://tinyurl.com/y9mjzy28

When you say, "smoked" . . . did it ever
work and quit or never worked. Was there
evidence of 'smoking' like real smoke or
bad smells?

I'm now at the state I previously described to you in the last email.

I kind of jumped the gun and sent the alternator and regulator back to B&C to run as a system, although I’m not convinced those parts are the problem. When I get the parts back, I’ll follow your continued experiment and report back.

I'm 99.9% sure that there's nothing
wrong with the hardware. At the same time,
I'm mystified by the nuisance trips on your
EXP-Bus.

Those alternators run so fast on a Lycoming
that field current in flight is generally
VERY low . . . typically less than 1/2 amp.
At taxi rpms with lots of 'stuff' on, the
field current MIGHT rise to approx 3 amps
but goes down quickly once enegine rpm exceeds
1000.

Lots of folks are stumped and want me to let them know what is the cause when it’s solved.

Thank you Bob for your insight and advice! Please let me know if I can offer you additional information or clarification.

Pleased to help. Wish we'd started this conversation
a LONG time ago . . .

NOTE TO MEMBERS OF THE LIST: Any time something
misbehaves in your airplane, figure it out sooner
rather than later. That's what the LIST is here
for. Slaying your dragons has two beneficial effects.
It increases reliability (and by extension confidence)
in your airplane. Further, it joins the constellation
of data points from which others may understand and
manage their own projects.


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popo123



Joined: 08 Feb 2019
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:09 pm    Post subject: Re: B&C Alternator and Voltage Regulator Reply with quote

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