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Metal In Oil Filters

 
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DangerJet



Joined: 12 Jun 2016
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:18 pm    Post subject: Metal In Oil Filters Reply with quote

After the first flight of my plane (since import), and the associated long duration high power engine run, I drained the oil, and removed and cleaned the filters. The oil was free of any visible FOD, (sample sent for oil analysis), but when I washed the 3 filters I did find a number (maybe 15 particles per filter) of very small (barely visible) metal pieces. They were clearly ferrous (they stuck to my magnet).
Should I be worried? The airplane sat for a lot of years before this run.

The temps and pressures are all good, and the EGT is good. The spooldown takes a while (indicated not damaged bearings), but there is a noise on spooldown (almost like a clicking) below ~200 rpm, audible from near the inlets.

I am concerned about potential corrosion/damage to the bearings from sitting, any thoughts?

My current plan is to do another engine run, another flight (less than 30 minutes), come back, and drain the oil again to see if more metal has accumulated. Is this reasonable?

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:45 pm    Post subject: Metal In Oil Filters Reply with quote

My L29 was imported in 1994 and sat assembled in a hangar and not flown from 1994 until I bought it in 2010. When I bought it, I serviced the systems and flew it half way across the US to home and been flying for 7 years now with no problems. My L29 was never a box or field queen so don't know if that might have made a difference. Engines are bullet proof.

On Saturday, March 4, 2017 1:21 AM, DangerJet <apredictableecho(at)gmail.com> wrote:



--> L29-List message posted by: "DangerJet" <apredictableecho(at)gmail.com (apredictableecho(at)gmail.com)>

After the first flight of my plane (since import), and the associated long duration high power engine run, I drained the oil, and removed and cleaned the filters. The oil was free of any visible FOD, (sample sent for oil analysis), but when I washed the 3 filters I did find a number (maybe 15 particles per filter) of very small (barely visible) metal pieces. They were clearly ferrous (they stuck to my magnet).
Should I be worried? The airplane sat for a lot of years before this run.

The temps and pressures are all good, and the EGT is good. The spooldown takes a while (indicated not damaged bearings), but there is a noise on spooldown (almost like a clicking) below ~200 rpm, audible from near the inlets.

I am concerned about potential corrosion/damage to the bearings from sitting, any thoughts?

My current plan is to do another engine run, another flight (less than 30 minutes), come back, and drain the oil again to see if more metal has accumulated. Is this reasonable?

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:24 pm    Post subject: Metal In Oil Filters Reply with quote

I have to say, I would not fly it until you had absolute confidence that the engine was not making metal. I would tie it down and fun it for a WHILE at flying RPMs and then see how the filter/ oil analysis works, don't fly till your sure.

The L-29 is one of the best flying jet trainers in the world with the best safety record. Don't be a statistic.

Bill Culberson
Red Star Aero Services
N39DE

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Mar 4, 2017, at 1:18 AM, DangerJet <apredictableecho(at)gmail.com> wrote:



After the first flight of my plane (since import), and the associated long duration high power engine run, I drained the oil, and removed and cleaned the filters. The oil was free of any visible FOD, (sample sent for oil analysis), but when I washed the 3 filters I did find a number (maybe 15 particles per filter) of very small (barely visible) metal pieces. They were clearly ferrous (they stuck to my magnet).
Should I be worried? The airplane sat for a lot of years before this run.

The temps and pressures are all good, and the EGT is good. The spooldown takes a while (indicated not damaged bearings), but there is a noise on spooldown (almost like a clicking) below ~200 rpm, audible from near the inlets.

I am concerned about potential corrosion/damage to the bearings from sitting, any thoughts?

My current plan is to do another engine run, another flight (less than 30 minutes), come back, and drain the oil again to see if more metal has accumulated. Is this reasonable?

Thanks!




Read this topic online here:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:41 pm    Post subject: Metal In Oil Filters Reply with quote

ChristianSent from my iPhone
On Mar 4, 2017, at 20:23, Bill Culberson <migfighter42(at)gmail.com (migfighter42(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> L29-List message posted by: Bill Culberson <migfighter42(at)gmail.com (migfighter42(at)gmail.com)>

I have to say, I would not fly it until you had absolute confidence that the engine was not making metal. I would tie it down and fun it for a WHILE at flying RPMs and then see how the filter/ oil analysis works, don't fly till your sure.

The L-29 is one of the best flying jet trainers in the world with the best safety record. Don't be a statistic.

Bill Culberson
Red Star Aero Services
N39DE

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Mar 4, 2017, at 1:18 AM, DangerJet <apredictableecho(at)gmail.com (apredictableecho(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

--> L29-List message posted by: "DangerJet" <apredictableecho(at)gmail.com (apredictableecho(at)gmail.com)>

After the first flight of my plane (since import), and the associated long duration high power engine run, I drained the oil, and removed and cleaned the filters. The oil was free of any visible FOD, (sample sent for oil analysis), but when I washed the 3 filters I did find a number (maybe 15 particles per filter) of very small (barely visible) metal pieces. They were clearly ferrous (they stuck to my magnet).
Should I be worried? The airplane sat for a lot of years before this run.

The temps and pressures are all good, and the EGT is good. The spooldown takes a while (indicated not damaged bearings), but there is a noise on spooldown (almost like a clicking) below ~200 rpm, audible from near the inlets.

I am concerned about potential corrosion/damage to the bearings from sitting, any thoughts?

My current plan is to do another engine run, another flight (less than 30 minutes), come back, and drain the oil again to see if more metal has accumulated. Is this reasonable?

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:50 pm    Post subject: Metal In Oil Filters Reply with quote

I have to add I have never found any metal in my oil filter screens. A little carbon but other than that always been clean

On Saturday, March 4, 2017 8:28 PM, Bill Culberson <migfighter42(at)gmail.com> wrote:



--> L29-List message posted by: Bill Culberson <migfighter42(at)gmail.com (migfighter42(at)gmail.com)>

I have to say, I would not fly it until you had absolute confidence that the engine was not making metal. I would tie it down and fun it for a WHILE at flying RPMs and then see how the filter/ oil analysis works, don't fly till your sure.

The L-29 is one of the best flying jet trainers in the world with the best safety record. Don't be a statistic.

Bill Culberson
Red Star Aero Services
N39DE

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Mar 4, 2017, at 1:18 AM, DangerJet <apredictableecho(at)gmail.com (apredictableecho(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

--> L29-List message posted by: "DangerJet" <apredictableecho(at)gmail.com (apredictableecho(at)gmail.com)>

After the first flight of my plane (since import), and the associated long duration high power engine run, I drained the oil, and removed and cleaned the filters. The oil was free of any visible FOD, (sample sent for oil analysis), but when I washed the 3 filters I did find a number (maybe 15 particles per filter) of very small (barely visible) metal pieces. They were clearly ferrous (they stuck to my magnet).
Should I be worried? The airplane sat for a lot of years before this run.

The temps and pressures are all good, and the EGT is good. The spooldown takes a while (indicated not damaged bearings), but there is a noise on spooldown (almost like a clicking) below ~200 rpm, audible from near the inlets.

I am concerned about potential corrosion/damage to the bearings from sitting, any thoughts?

My current plan is to do another engine run, another flight (less than 30 minutes), come back, and drain the oil again to see if more metal has accumulated. Is this reasonable?

Thanks!




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Dawg



Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 353

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:39 pm    Post subject: Metal In Oil Filters Reply with quote

That’s because I imported only top-o-the-line jets….IMHO

We paid extra for the carbon.
Quote:
On Mar 4, 2017, at 19:46, Anthony Royal <skyking76t(at)verizon.net (skyking76t(at)verizon.net)> wrote:
I have to add I have never found any metal in my oil filter screens. A little carbon but other than that always been clean

On Saturday, March 4, 2017 8:28 PM, Bill Culberson <migfighter42(at)gmail.com (migfighter42(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
--> L29-List message posted by: Bill Culberson <migfighter42(at)gmail.com (migfighter42(at)gmail.com)>I have to say, I would not fly it until you had absolute confidence that the engine was not making metal. I would tie it down and fun it for a WHILE at flying RPMs and then see how the filter/ oil analysis works, don't fly till your sure. The L-29 is one of the best flying jet trainers in the world with the best safety record. Don't be a statistic.Bill Culberson Red Star Aero ServicesN39DESent from my iPhone> On Mar 4, 2017, at 1:18 AM, DangerJet <apredictableecho(at)gmail.com (apredictableecho(at)gmail.com)> wrote:> > --> L29-List message posted by: "DangerJet" <apredictableecho(at)gmail.com (apredictableecho(at)gmail.com)>> > After the first flight of my plane (since import), and the associated long duration high power engine run, I drained the oil, and removed and cleaned the filters. The oil was free of any visible FOD, (sample sent for oil analysis), but when I washed the 3 filters I did find a number (maybe 15 particles per filter) of very small (barely visible) metal pieces. They were clearly ferrous (they stuck to my magnet).> Should I be worried? The airplane sat for a lot of years before this run. > > The temps and pressures are all good, and the EGT is good. The spooldown takes a while (indicated not damaged bearings), but there is a noise on spooldown (almost like a clicking) below ~200 rpm, audible from near the inlets.> > I am concerned about potential corrosion/damage to the bearings from sitting, any thoughts?> > My current plan is to do another engine run, another flight (less than 30 minutes), come back, and drain the oil again to see if more metal has accumulated. Is this reasonable?> > Thanks!> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466849#466849> > > > > > > >


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:46 pm    Post subject: Metal In Oil Filters Reply with quote

Metal in your oil is not a good thing, no matter what engine your talking about.There's a reason it's there and most likely it won't just go away.
Running the engine with metal present will only distribute the metal throughout the engine and damage components until you have some type of failure.
Sounds like the best course of action is a new motor.
The M701 is cheap compared to compromising your health, safety and well being.
I can help you with a new M701-500
--


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:21 am    Post subject: Metal In Oil Filters Reply with quote

That you did, my friend. Been a great aircraft.
Did you go to the Czech Republic to pick out the aircraft? I believe Rick Worringer said you did.

On Saturday, March 4, 2017 11:41 PM, William Geipel <l129bs(at)gmail.com> wrote:



That’s because I imported only top-o-the-line jets….IMHO

We paid extra for the carbon.
Quote:
On Mar 4, 2017, at 19:46, Anthony Royal <skyking76t(at)verizon.net (skyking76t(at)verizon.net)> wrote:
I have to add I have never found any metal in my oil filter screens. A little carbon but other than that always been clean

On Saturday, March 4, 2017 8:28 PM, Bill Culberson <migfighter42(at)gmail.com (migfighter42(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
--> L29-List message posted by: Bill Culberson <migfighter42(at)gmail.com (migfighter42(at)gmail.com)>I have to say, I would not fly it until you had absolute confidence that the engine was not making metal. I would tie it down and fun it for a WHILE at flying RPMs and then see how the filter/ oil analysis works, don't fly till your sure. The L-29 is one of the best flying jet trainers in the world with the best safety record. Don't be a statistic.Bill Culberson Red Star Aero ServicesN39DESent from my iPhone> On Mar 4, 2017, at 1:18 AM, DangerJet <apredictableecho(at)gmail.com (apredictableecho(at)gmail.com)> wrote:> > --> L29-List message posted by: "DangerJet" <apredictableecho(at)gmail.com (apredictableecho(at)gmail.com)>> > After the first flight of my plane (since import), and the associated long duration high power engine run, I drained the oil, and removed and cleaned the filters. The oil was free of any visible FOD, (sample sent for oil analysis), but when I washed the 3 filters I did find a number (maybe 15 particles per filter) of very small (barely visible) metal pieces. They were clearly ferrous (they stuck to my magnet).> Should I be worried? The airplane sat for a lot of years before this run. > > The temps and pressures are all good, and the EGT is good. The spooldown takes a while (indicated not damaged bearings), but there is a noise on spooldown (almost like a clicking) below ~200 rpm, audible from near the inlets.> > I am concerned about potential corrosion/damage to the bearings from sitting, any thoughts?> > My current plan is to do another engine run, another flight (less than 30 minutes), come back, and drain the oil again to see if more metal has accumulated. Is this reasonable?> > Thanks!> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466849#466849> > > > > > > >


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:39 am    Post subject: Metal In Oil Filters Reply with quote

In piston engines, such as Lycoming and Continental, a small amount of metal, a lot greater than a few flakes, in the oil is considered normal. The composition of the metal particles is what is important. Gives one an idea of what part is wearing. While it may not be desirable, it is not always catastrophic. I don't know if the same logic or guidelines applies to the M701. How long did the engine sit before being first run? Was it cycled a few times to get oil pressure up before attempting the first start?
I agree with the latter and fly it a few more times and keep a check on the oil filters. If you keep seeing metal or the amount increases, and based on the oil analysis, I would then make a decision to continue flying or replace the engine
Has anyone ever heard of an engine bearing failure or engine failure period in the L29? Not being a smart ass, but just curious if an engine has ever failed. I don't see any engine faillures in any of the accident reports
Tony
A&P/IA


On Saturday, March 4, 2017 11:49 PM, "sd737(at)aol.com" <sd737(at)aol.com> wrote:



Metal in your oil is not a good thing, no matter what engine your talking about.There's a reason it's there and most likely it won't just go away.
Running the engine with metal present will only distribute the metal throughout the engine and damage components until you have some type of failure.
Sounds like the best course of action is a new motor.
The M701 is cheap compared to compromising your health, safety and well being.

I can help you with a new M701-500--


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DangerJet



Joined: 12 Jun 2016
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: Metal In Oil Filters Reply with quote

Tony,

Yeah, I was reading through Lycoming's guide for acceptable metal contents (the only official reference I could find on the subject of metal in oil). Speaking to some jet engine mechanics at work, they all seem to agree that the engine needs to run more and then be checked again.
Before I first ran it, I motored it a number of times over the course of a couple days to get oil pressure up. It had sat for at least 12 years from my understanding.

Thanks for your replies everyone, I will keep you posted!


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Dawg



Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 353

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:05 pm    Post subject: Metal In Oil Filters Reply with quote

Hand picked all 37 29/39s.
Quote:
On Mar 5, 2017, at 07:17, Anthony Royal <skyking76t(at)verizon.net (skyking76t(at)verizon.net)> wrote:
That you did, my friend. Been a great aircraft.

Did you go to the Czech Republic to pick out the aircraft? I believe Rick Worringer said you did.

On Saturday, March 4, 2017 11:41 PM, William Geipel <l129bs(at)gmail.com (l129bs(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
That’s because I imported only top-o-the-line jets….IMHO

We paid extra for the carbon.
Quote:
On Mar 4, 2017, at 19:46, Anthony Royal <skyking76t(at)verizon.net (skyking76t(at)verizon.net)> wrote:
I have to add I have never found any metal in my oil filter screens. A little carbon but other than that always been clean

On Saturday, March 4, 2017 8:28 PM, Bill Culberson <migfighter42(at)gmail.com (migfighter42(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
--> L29-List message posted by: Bill Culberson <migfighter42(at)gmail.com (migfighter42(at)gmail.com)>I have to say, I would not fly it until you had absolute confidence that the engine was not making metal. I would tie it down and fun it for a WHILE at flying RPMs and then see how the filter/ oil analysis works, don't fly till your sure. The L-29 is one of the best flying jet trainers in the world with the best safety record. Don't be a statistic.Bill Culberson Red Star Aero ServicesN39DESent from my iPhone> On Mar 4, 2017, at 1:18 AM, DangerJet <apredictableecho(at)gmail.com (apredictableecho(at)gmail.com)> wrote:> > --> L29-List message posted by: "DangerJet" <apredictableecho(at)gmail.com (apredictableecho(at)gmail.com)>> > After the first flight of my plane (since import), and the associated long duration high power engine run, I drained the oil, and removed and cleaned the filters. The oil was free of any visible FOD, (sample sent for oil analysis), but when I washed the 3 filters I did find a number (maybe 15 particles per filter) of very small (barely visible) metal pieces. They were clearly ferrous (they stuck to my magnet).> Should I be worried? The airplane sat for a lot of years before this run. > > The temps and pressures are all good, and the EGT is good. The spooldown takes a while (indicated not damaged bearings), but there is a noise on spooldown (almost like a clicking) below ~200 rpm, audible from near the inlets.> > I am concerned about potential corrosion/damage to the bearings from sitting, any thoughts?> > My current plan is to do another engine run, another flight (less than 30 minutes), come back, and drain the oil again to see if more metal has accumulated. Is this reasonable?> > Thanks!> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466849#466849> > > > > > > >








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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:35 am    Post subject: Metal In Oil Filters Reply with quote

Been a great airplane. The only squawk is the tail sometimes fails to retrim to the selected flap setting. Have checked and cleaned the microswitches in the wing and cleaned the flap switches. Doesn't do it all the time but you know it when it does. Guess the trim motor is the next check

On Sunday, March 5, 2017 7:09 PM, William Geipel <l129bs(at)gmail.com> wrote:



Hand picked all 37 29/39s.
Quote:
On Mar 5, 2017, at 07:17, Anthony Royal <skyking76t(at)verizon.net (skyking76t(at)verizon.net)> wrote:
That you did, my friend. Been a great aircraft.

Did you go to the Czech Republic to pick out the aircraft? I believe Rick Worringer said you did.

On Saturday, March 4, 2017 11:41 PM, William Geipel <l129bs(at)gmail.com (l129bs(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
That’s because I imported only top-o-the-line jets….IMHO

We paid extra for the carbon.
Quote:
On Mar 4, 2017, at 19:46, Anthony Royal <skyking76t(at)verizon.net (skyking76t(at)verizon.net)> wrote:
I have to add I have never found any metal in my oil filter screens. A little carbon but other than that always been clean

On Saturday, March 4, 2017 8:28 PM, Bill Culberson <migfighter42(at)gmail.com (migfighter42(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
--> L29-List message posted by: Bill Culberson <migfighter42(at)gmail.com (migfighter42(at)gmail.com)>I have to say, I would not fly it until you had absolute confidence that the engine was not making metal. I would tie it down and fun it for a WHILE at flying RPMs and then see how the filter/ oil analysis works, don't fly till your sure. The L-29 is one of the best flying jet trainers in the world with the best safety record. Don't be a statistic.Bill Culberson Red Star Aero ServicesN39DESent from my iPhone> On Mar 4, 2017, at 1:18 AM, DangerJet <apredictableecho(at)gmail.com (apredictableecho(at)gmail.com)> wrote:> > --> L29-List message posted by: "DangerJet" <apredictableecho(at)gmail.com (apredictableecho(at)gmail.com)>> > After the first flight of my plane (since import), and the associated long duration high power engine run, I drained the oil, and removed and cleaned the filters. The oil was free of any visible FOD, (sample sent for oil analysis), but when I washed the 3 filters I did find a number (maybe 15 particles per filter) of very small (barely visible) metal pieces. They were clearly ferrous (they stuck to my magnet).> Should I be worried? The airplane sat for a lot of years before this run. > > The temps and pressures are all good, and the EGT is good. The spooldown takes a while (indicated not damaged bearings), but there is a noise on spooldown (almost like a clicking) below ~200 rpm, audible from near the inlets.> > I am concerned about potential corrosion/damage to the bearings from sitting, any thoughts?> > My current plan is to do another engine run, another flight (less than 30 minutes), come back, and drain the oil again to see if more metal has accumulated. Is this reasonable?> > Thanks!> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466849#466849> > > > > > > >








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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:36 am    Post subject: Metal In Oil Filters Reply with quote

I went to Lycoming service and overhaul school/factory training and Lycoming says up to half a teaspoon of metal is acceptable. Personally, I think that is way, way too much.
The M701 is a different beast too. I would run it or maybe fly over the airport, in case of an emergency landing, and check the oil again...maybe several times
Bob Schwartz, Bill Culberson, and William Geipel have owned L29's for a long time and have a lot of experience and are very knowledgeable.

On Sunday, March 5, 2017 11:52 AM, DangerJet <apredictableecho(at)gmail.com> wrote:



--> L29-List message posted by: "DangerJet" <apredictableecho(at)gmail.com (apredictableecho(at)gmail.com)>

Tony,

Yeah, I was reading through Lycoming's guide for acceptable metal contents (the only official reference I could find on the subject of metal in oil). Speaking to some jet engine mechanics at work, they all seem to agree that the engine needs to run more and then be checked again.
Before I first ran it, I motored it a number of times over the course of a couple days to get oil pressure up. It had sat for at least 12 years from my understanding.

Thanks for your replies everyone, I will keep you posted!


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