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RotaxEngines/Bing carb's alleged altitude compensation

 
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creightonious



Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:52 am    Post subject: RotaxEngines/Bing carb's alleged altitude compensation Reply with quote

Uh, no. Not really.
They do a reasonable job up to about 4000ft, but above that the slide lifts the needle out of the jet well and things get really rich. The diaphragm can only do so much.
Not to be too hard on the Bings-they, like all carburetors are hoist from the the same petard. Namely that carbs meter fuel to the VOLUME of air and at 7000ft you have left 25% of the atmosphere, ie: oxygen, behind and the carb is still adding fuel based on sea level proportions.
The solution is, of course, fuel injection.
Creighton Smith

Sent from my iPad

Quote:
On Feb 17, 2017, at 3:03 AM, RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com> wrote:

*

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and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
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HTML Version:

http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 17-02-16&Archive=RotaxEngines

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Total Messages Posted Thu 02/16/17: 1
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Today's Message Index:
----------------------

1. 03:54 PM - Bing Carb Theory of Operation (h&amp;jeuropa)



________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________


Time: 03:54:58 PM PST US
Subject: Bing Carb Theory of Operation
From: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net>


The January 2017 and February 2017 issues of EAA Sport Aviation have two articles
by Carol & Brian Carpenter of Rainbow Aviation Services that describe how
our Bing carbs work. The articles have color diagrams that show fuel and air flow.
They really do compensate for altitude by clever design!

Jim Butcher


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466313#466313










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Creighton Smith
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kenryan



Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 298

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:27 am    Post subject: RotaxEngines/Bing carb's alleged altitude compensation Reply with quote

Would the same be true for the Rotax 914?

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 9:50 AM, crouton <crouton(at)well.com (crouton(at)well.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: crouton <crouton(at)well.com (crouton(at)well.com)>

Uh, no.  Not really.
They do a reasonable job up to about 4000ft, but above that the slide lifts the needle out of the jet well and things get really rich.  The diaphragm can only do so much.
Not to be too hard on the Bings-they, like all carburetors are hoist from the the same petard.  Namely that carbs meter fuel to the VOLUME of air and at 7000ft you have left 25% of the atmosphere, ie: oxygen, behind and the carb is still adding fuel based on sea level proportions.
The solution is, of course, fuel injection.
Creighton Smith

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 17, 2017, at 3:03 AM, RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)> wrote:
>
> *
>
> ==================================================
>   Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> ==================================================
>
> Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> two Web Links listed below.  The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation.  The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
>    http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter=2017-02-16&Archive=RotaxEngines
>
> Text Version:
>
>    http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter=2017-02-16&Archive=RotaxEngines
>
>
> ================================================
>   EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ================================================
>
>
>           ----------------------------------------------------------
>                           RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
>                                      ---
>                     Total Messages Posted Thu 02/16/17: 1
>           ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
>     1. 03:54 PM - Bing Carb Theory of Operation  (h&amp;jeuropa)
>
>
>
> ________________________________  Message 1  _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 03:54:58 PM PST US
> Subject: Bing Carb Theory of Operation
> From: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)>
>
>
> The January 2017 and February 2017 issues of EAA Sport Aviation have two articles
> by Carol & Brian Carpenter of Rainbow Aviation Services that describe  how
> our Bing carbs work. The articles have color diagrams that show fuel and air flow.
> They really do compensate for altitude by clever design!
>
> Jim Butcher
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466313#466313
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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max8992



Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 142

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:02 am    Post subject: RotaxEngines/Bing carb's alleged altitude compensation Reply with quote

Hi there all. can't read these articles as access is granted only to members which I'm not and not willing to be... Any chance to get a copy ?

Max  Cointe
mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)
[img]cid:image002.jpg(at)01D28A19.26932A40[/img]
F-PLDJ Dyn’Aéro MCR 4S
Kit #27-2002 1850 heures 912ULSFR/e-Props D100M


De : owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de Ken Ryan
Envoyé : vendredi 17 février 2017 20:25
À : rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Objet : Re: Re: RotaxEngines/Bing carb's alleged altitude compensation

Would the same be true for the Rotax 914?


On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 9:50 AM, crouton <crouton(at)well.com (crouton(at)well.com)> wrote:
Quote:

--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: crouton <crouton(at)well.com (crouton(at)well.com)>

Uh, no. Not really.
They do a reasonable job up to about 4000ft, but above that the slide lifts the needle out of the jet well and things get really rich. The diaphragm can only do so much.
Not to be too hard on the Bings-they, like all carburetors are hoist from the the same petard. Namely that carbs meter fuel to the VOLUME of air and at 7000ft you have left 25% of the atmosphere, ie: oxygen, behind and the carb is still adding fuel based on sea level proportions.
The solution is, of course, fuel injection.
Creighton Smith

Sent from my iPad

Quote:
On Feb 17, 2017, at 3:03 AM, RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)> wrote:

*


Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive


Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.

HTML Version:

http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter=2017-02-16&Archive=RotaxEngines

Text Version:

http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter=2017-02-16&Archive=RotaxEngines
=======================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
=======================
----------------------------------------------------------
RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Thu 02/16/17: 1
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------

1. 03:54 PM - Bing Carb Theory of Operation (h&amp;jeuropa)

________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
Time: 03:54:58 PM PST US
Subject: Bing Carb Theory of Operation
From: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)>
The January 2017 and February 2017 issues of EAA Sport Aviation have two articles
by Carol & Brian Carpenter of Rainbow Aviation Services that describe how
our Bing carbs work. The articles have color diagrams that show fuel and air flow.
They really do compensate for altitude by clever design!

Jim Butcher
Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466313#466313


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errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
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====================================


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Max8992
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h&jeuropa



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 386

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:25 am    Post subject: Re: RotaxEngines/Bing carb's alleged altitude compensation Reply with quote

The next to last paragraph of the January article explains how the Bing carb compensates for altitude.

A 914 operates at manifold pressure of 30 in Hg, or nearly sea level altitude. So it doesn't have the potential mixture problem.

I have sent Max a copy of the articles.

Jim Butcher


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creightonious



Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: RotaxEngines/Bing carb's alleged altitude compensation Reply with quote

kenryan wrote:
Would the same be true for the Rotax 914?

Jim is correct. The 914 is, for continuous power, turbo-normalized and at all non oxygen-sucking altitudes, the carbs see essentially sea level air. Ergo, no going super rich at useful altitudes.
This accounts for the 914's near-universal acceptance in the US where altitudes below 13000 (18000 with oxygen) are available to use.
Creighton

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 9:50 AM, crouton <crouton> wrote:
Quote:
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: crouton <crouton>

Uh, no.  Not really.
They do a reasonable job up to about 4000ft, but above that the slide lifts the needle out of the jet well and things get really rich.  The diaphragm can only do so much.
Not to be too hard on the Bings-they, like all carburetors are hoist from the the same petard.  Namely that carbs meter fuel to the VOLUME of air and at 7000ft you have left 25% of the atmosphere, ie: oxygen, behind and the carb is still adding fuel based on sea level proportions.
The solution is, of course, fuel injection.
Creighton Smith

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 17, 2017, at 3:03 AM, RotaxEngines-List Digest Server <rotaxengines> wrote:
>
> *
>
> ==================================================
>   Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> ==================================================
>
> Today's complete RotaxEngines-List Digest can also be found in either of the
> two Web Links listed below.  The .html file includes the Digest formatted
> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation.  The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
> of the RotaxEngines-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
> such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
> HTML Version:
>
>    http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter=2017-02-16&Archive=RotaxEngines
>
> Text Version:
>
>    http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter=2017-02-16&Archive=RotaxEngines
>
>
> ================================================
>   EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ================================================
>
>
>           ----------------------------------------------------------
>                           RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive
>                                      ---
>                     Total Messages Posted Thu 02/16/17: 1
>           ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
>     1. 03:54 PM - Bing Carb Theory of Operation  (h&amp;jeuropa)
>
>
>
> ________________________________  Message 1  _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 03:54:58 PM PST US
> Subject: Bing Carb Theory of Operation
> From: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43>
>
>
> The January 2017 and February 2017 issues of EAA Sport Aviation have two articles
> by Carol & Brian Carpenter of Rainbow Aviation Services that describe  how
> our Bing carbs work. The articles have color diagrams that show fuel and air flow.
> They really do compensate for altitude by clever design!
>
> Jim Butcher
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466313#466313
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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====================================
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eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
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errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
====================================
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rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================





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Creighton Smith
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rampil



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 849

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:41 am    Post subject: Re: RotaxEngines/Bing carb's alleged altitude compensation Reply with quote

Interesting that this old canard about altitude compensation is raising
it's head from the dead again. It is, basically a false claim, unless, as
Creighton points out you restrict your flying to Piper cub altitudes. Fuel
consumption, I believe, is most relevant during cross country ops, and
during XC ops, I usually plan FL060-090 over the flatlands I now live
amidst. As they say, if you plan 500' AGL (1500' MSL here), your mileage
may vary!

When my Europa was freshly built 13 years ago and my engine
fully instrumented, I ran extensive test cards on engine performance
while flying off my Phase 1 at Z-Hills. Climbing above 3-4,000 DA, fuel
consumption rises reliably, while effective power declines as expected.
I published the spreadsheets here on the Matronics forums at the time
and shared them with Phil Lockwood. Shortly after that, Rotax stopped
advertising this "feature". Coincidence? Perhaps.

Rather than theory from possibly commercially informed interests,
I would prefer more actual measurements, preferably from
disinterested but experienced third parties. If there is confusion about
the Bing system, consider the role that Rotax played.

Despite the advertising, the official operator's manual provides
essentially no performance / consumption data compared with
Lyc / Con manuals.

I still love my 912s, but I am a bit steamed that my block cracked at
380 hours of operation and despite some discount, my repair bill was over $10k.


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Lcfittlcfitt3@gmail.com



Joined: 26 Mar 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:10 am    Post subject: RotaxEngines/Bing carb's alleged altitude compensation Reply with quote

Interesting post.  My understanding was That the altitude compensation was in fact, related to the Cub altitudes.   The memory comes up as we, on our way home from an Idaho Back Country adventure in our Kitfoxes, flying the bends of a river at 100 ft. looking for wildlife and practicing steep turns, we listened to the chatter coming from a group of RVs on their way to the Reno Air Races, while flying at RV altitudes.  all the talk was about manifold pressure and airspeed.  To each his own, I guess.Lowell
On Jun 20, 2017 5:46 AM, "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com (ira.rampil(at)gmail.com)>

Interesting that this old canard about altitude compensation is raising
 it's head from the dead again.  It is, basically a false claim, unless, as
Creighton points out you restrict your flying to Piper cub altitudes. Fuel
consumption, I believe, is most relevant during cross country ops, and
during XC ops, I usually plan FL060-090 over the flatlands I now live
amidst. As they say, if you plan 500' AGL (1500' MSL here), your mileage
may vary!

When my Europa was freshly built 13 years ago and my engine
fully instrumented, I ran extensive test cards on engine performance
while flying off my Phase 1 at Z-Hills.  Climbing above 3-4,000 DA, fuel
consumption rises reliably, while effective power declines as expected.
I published the spreadsheets here on the Matronics forums at the time
and shared them with Phil Lockwood. Shortly after that, Rotax stopped
advertising this "feature". Coincidence? Perhaps.

Rather than theory from possibly commercially informed interests,
I would prefer more actual measurements, preferably from
disinterested but experienced third parties.  If there is confusion about
the Bing system, consider the role  that Rotax played.

Despite the advertising, the official operator's  manual provides
essentially no performance / consumption data compared with
Lyc / Con manuals.

I still love my 912s, but I am a bit steamed that my block cracked at
380 hours of operation and despite some discount, my repair bill was over $10k.

--------
Ira N224XS




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470260#470260






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errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
====================================
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rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================





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