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Z12-Question

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donvansanten(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:42 pm Post subject: Z12-Question

Bob,



No arguments with the Z13/8 being the most robust system for the dollars spent. The only thing I do not like about it is having to give up perfectly good devices due to an insufficient source of electrons to drive them. Z12 has the power, but not the "layers". 



Is it possible/easy to have a parallel battery contactor and switch to actuate it? If not than how about a 2 rear replacement cycle for the contactor and switch? I already do the the annual replacement of the PC680 battery. Any thoughts on this? 



Thanks, Don

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:38 pm Post subject: Z12-Question

At 10:36 PM 2/13/2017, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bob,

 No arguments with the Z13/8 being the most robust system for the dollars spent. The only thing I do not like about it is having to give up perfectly good devices due to an insufficient source of electrons to drive them. Z12 has the power, but not the "layers". 	




    Are you telling us that you have enough

    equipment on your airplane to basically

    overload your main alternator?



  	  Quote: 	
		  Is it possible/easy to have a parallel battery contactor and switch to actuate it? If not than how about a 2 rear replacement cycle for the contactor and switch? I already do the the annual replacement of the PC680 battery. Any thoughts on this? 

 Thanks, Don 	


    It would be REALLY useful to see what the

    load analysis for your airplane looks like.

    There's a blank form here



  http://tinyurl.com/7jqypwj



    than helps you organize your power management

    decisions and requirements. One page

    for each bus. This is usually battery, main

    and e-bus. There are also some Excel

    examples of load analysis in Excel here



  http://tinyurl.com/9rt6ymn



    Load analysis is one of the very first development

    documents crafted in the design of a new aircraft.

    It gets inputs and revisions from all factions of

    the design team. Just because you're a team-of-one

    doesn't make the document any less useful . . . and

    if you'd like to get good input from the team here

    on the List, having that equipment list, electrical

    demands and mission parameters to look at will

    greatly improve the quality of advice we can give.



    If you're needing to drive the bus with more than

    one alternator to meet present energy needs, I'm

    wondering if you've missed a decimal point or

    forgot to carry somewhere.



 

   Bob . . .

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donvansanten(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:44 pm Post subject: Z12-Question

Bob,



No I am not in danger of overloading my main alternator.Â  What I was saying is that if I need to go to my E Bus I have to give up equipment that while not mandatory for continuation of flight in IFR conditions, it sure helps to have it.Â  I therefore wanted to try Z12 as my "system". You advised me that this was not a good idea, as there is no "layering" in Z12. What I wanted to know is if having parallel battery contactors and control switches would work in place of the layering that exists in z13/8. I   

realize that if the battery fails that the entire system would shut down. This is the only way that I can see that z13/8 is more robust than z12. I replace the battery during the annual condition inspection and feel safe using this system if the parallel contactors do not present any hazard.

Daylight IFR amp load after battery is charged after engine start is 13 to 17A. This can be reduced to 11A but no lessÂ  This is too heavy a load for the SD8 to carry. Therefore I want to run the SD20 backup system.Â  I am thinking that this would be slightly less robust than z14 but more robust than z12 as originally posted.Â  

  

 

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 1:35 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    At 10:36 PM 2/13/2017, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bob,

 No arguments with the Z13/8 being the most robust system for the dollars spent. The only thing I do not like about it is having to give up perfectly good devices due to an insufficient source of electrons to drive them. Z12 has the power, but not the "layers". 	




 Â Â  Are you telling us that you have enough

 Â Â  equipment on your airplane to basically

 Â Â  overload your main alternator?



  	  Quote: 	
		  Is it possible/easy to have a parallel battery contactor and switch to actuate it? If not than how about a 2 rear replacement cycle for the contactor and switch? I already do the the annual replacement of the PC680 battery. Any thoughts on this? 

 Thanks, Don 	


 Â Â  It would be REALLY useful to see what the

 Â Â  load analysis for your airplane looks like.

 Â Â  There's a blank form here



  http://tinyurl.com/7jqypwj



 Â Â  than helps you organize your power management

 Â Â  decisions and requirements. One page

 Â Â  for each bus. This is usually battery, main

 Â Â  and e-bus. There are also some Excel

 Â Â  examples of load analysis in Excel here



  http://tinyurl.com/9rt6ymn



 Â Â  Load analysis is one of the very first development

 Â Â  documents crafted in the design of a new aircraft.

 Â Â  It gets inputs and revisions from all factions of

 Â Â  the design team. Just because you're a team-of-one

 Â Â  doesn't make the document any less useful . . . and

 Â Â  if you'd like to get good input from the team here

 Â Â  on the List, having that equipment list, electrical

 Â Â  demands and mission parameters to look at will

 Â Â  greatly improve the quality of advice we can give.



 Â Â  If you're needing to drive the bus with more than

 Â Â  one alternator to meet present energy needs, I'm

 Â Â  wondering if you've missed a decimal point or

 Â Â  forgot to carry somewhere.



 

 Â  Bob . . .

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neal.george(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:46 pm Post subject: Z12-Question

If a qualified load analysis indicates that 8 amps will not carry your endurance loads, it is a simple matter to convert Z13/8 to Z13/20.  Exchange the SD8 for an SD20 and the rectifier-regulator  for LR3-C...



Neal George

Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Feb 13, 2017, at 10:36 PM, don van santen <donvansanten(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 Bob,

 No arguments with the Z13/8 being the most robust system for the dollars spent. The only thing I do not like about it is having to give up perfectly good devices due to an insufficient source of electrons to drive them. Z12 has the power, but not the "layers". 

 Is it possible/easy to have a parallel battery contactor and switch to actuate it? If not than how about a 2 rear replacement cycle for the contactor and switch? I already do the the annual replacement of the PC680 battery. Any thoughts on this? 

 Thanks, Don

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donvansanten(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:34 pm Post subject: Z12-Question

That would work. How ever the SD20 will probably not run without a battery. Also the consept of an endurance bus, at least in my case, becomes meaningless because I could carry the entire load on the SD20.z13 allows for contactor and or master switch failure without the lights going out.Â  Battery failure may also be tolerated with z13 as designed.

Z12 with parallel contactors or a 40A relay to bypass the contactor Â allowsthe same protection Â except for battery failure. I change out the battery once a year.

Comments?

On Feb 14, 2017 5:52 PM,  <neal.george(at)gmail.com (neal.george(at)gmail.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: neal.george(at)gmail.com (neal.george(at)gmail.com)

 If a qualified load analysis indicates that 8 amps will not carry your endurance loads, it is a simple matter to convert Z13/8 to Z13/20.Â  Exchange the SD8 for an SD20 and the rectifier-regulatorÂ  for LR3-C...

 Neal George

 Sent from my iPhone

 > On Feb 13, 2017, at 10:36 PM, don van santen <donvansanten(at)gmail.com (donvansanten(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 >

 > Bob,

 > No arguments with the Z13/8 being the most robust system for the dollars spent. The only thing I do not like about it is having to give up perfectly good devices due to an insufficient source of electrons to drive them. Z12 has the power, but not the "layers".

 > Is it possible/easy to have a parallel battery contactor and switch to actuate it? If not than how about a 2 rear replacement cycle for the contactor and switch? I already do the the annual replacement of the PC680 battery. Any thoughts on this?

 > Thanks, Don

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ngeorge(at)cmg.aero
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:21 pm Post subject: Z12-Question

I tend to doubt that a well-considerd architecture such as Z13 will leave you in such a bind.   We (meaning Bob) have beaten this horse for years.  

 Regarding the Endurance Bus as irrelevant, again, I disagree.  As you have presented your situation (without a load analysis we are still guessing), the main alternator can supply all imagined "normal" loads, to include battery  recharge after start thru climb-out, but the endurance bus at 20amps may only low-rate-charge or at worst maintain the current battery state, as opposed to stuff as much power as the battery will take. 

 Once enabled, the SD20 & LR3 should sense bus voltage, pick up the load and run just fine.  The LR3  may hunt a little in response to changing loads, but it should not just quit. As Bob has explained many times, a properly maintained  battery is the most reliable source of electrical energy in the aircraft - if you replace the battery when it demonstrates that it can't handle the expected load (thru regular capacity checks, or every year as a prophylaxis), then this becomes akin to an argument  over whether I buy beer or simply rent it.  

 Given a mechanically sound electrical system,  you are exceedingly unlikely to go from hunky-dory to all-dark in an instant.

 Properly configured and instrumented in accordance with Z13/x, you will be notified of low bus voltage - it is extremely unlikely to be zero.  

 Finish your cookie; Command Main Alt Field switch OFF;  Endurance switch ON; and continue to intended destination.  No sweat, spilled beverage or frayed nerves required.

 Neal George Sent from my iPhone

 On Feb 14, 2017, at 8:37 PM, don van santen <donvansanten(at)gmail.com (donvansanten(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		    That would work. How ever the SD20 will probably not run without a battery. Also the consept of an endurance bus, at least in my case, becomes meaningless because I could carry the entire load on the SD20. z13 allows for contactor and or master switch failure without the lights going out.  Battery failure may also be tolerated with z13 as designed.

 Z12 with parallel contactors or a 40A relay to bypass the contactor  allowsthe same protection  except for battery failure. I change out the battery once a year.

 Comments?

 On Feb 14, 2017 5:52 PM, <neal.george(at)gmail.com (neal.george(at)gmail.com)> wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		   --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: neal.george(at)gmail.com (neal.george(at)gmail.com)

 If a qualified load analysis indicates that 8 amps will not carry your endurance loads, it is a simple matter to convert Z13/8 to Z13/20.  Exchange the SD8 for an SD20 and the rectifier-regulator  for LR3-C...

 Neal George

 Sent from my iPhone

 > On Feb 13, 2017, at 10:36 PM, don van santen <donvansanten(at)gmail.com (donvansanten(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 >

 > Bob,

 > No arguments with the Z13/8 being the most robust system for the dollars spent. The only thing I do not like about it is having to give up perfectly good devices due to an insufficient source of electrons to drive them. Z12 has the power, but not the "layers".

 > Is it possible/easy to have a parallel battery contactor and switch to actuate it? If not than how about a 2 rear replacement cycle for the contactor and switch? I already do the the annual replacement of the PC680 battery. Any thoughts on this?

 > Thanks, Don

 ====================================

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 Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

 ====================================

 FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ====================================

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

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