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Something is stealing my electricity

 
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Alan Carter



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:04 am    Post subject: Something is stealing my electricity Reply with quote

Hello All. I have just updated this, hope its a bit better for you all.

I have had this problem for sometime now, probably posted it here about a year ago.
However something is stealing my electricity, my voltmeter really indicates above 12 volts and the battery is all the time being very slowly drained over the course of time.

Just to keep the problem simple,
Flying 12v indicated, turn the Avionics Master Switch OFF, voltmeter shows say 12.5 volts , pull about every CB ( 914 so not the Fuel pump, but your could do it momentary if you wanted to)
So at about this point nearly all the power to the components is OFF

We have the engine modules and a couple of other things live,, but 99% is now OFF and still showing about 12 volts with practical every thing isolated ie OFF. Except the Mater Switch, PS I am not a builder,

Now turn the Master Switch OFF, and Hay Presto voltmeter jumps to 14 volts, now charging the battery nicely.

1/ Fitted, New Battery, New Regulator/Rectifier, Volt meter,
The brown cables to the Rectifier show 14 volts with the engine running.
So no problem with Dynamo/Alt output.

2/ Engine not running,( Master Switch ON, clunk) (Master Switch OFF click),
So some Relay or Component is cutting IN and OUT respectively.
In the starting circuit, sound come from floor, so nothing to do with the CPU of the 914 engine.
Aircraft voltmeter Zero then 12volts (or 13.8 if have had the battery charger on over night.)

3/ Now Master ON ,"Clunk" start the engine, All CBs pulled Avionics switch OFF, the aircrafts volt meter will read say 12.2 volts,
I have 14+ showing on a hand held multi meter across the brown leads, so
a full 14 volts getting to the rectifier.

4/ Now switch the Master Switch OFF, and the aircrafts voltmeter jumps right up to 14 volts, The Master Switch is OFF due to the engine running
you can not hear the Click from the floor as the Master Switch is turned OFF.
I am thinking something here in this circuit should have dropped of line automatically after the engine has started with the Master Switch still in its ON position thus allowing the 14 v to go to the aircrafts voltmeter.

By Manual switching the Master Switch OFF you are manually dropping this component off line thus allowing the 14 v to the voltmeter.

This is ether sense, or none sense, I am not a builder or electrical engineer just my simple logic.


Any thoughts on this,
Or a place I can take it to get it fixed,
Regards.
Alan


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Last edited by Alan Carter on Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:39 am    Post subject: Something is stealing my electricity Reply with quote

Hi Alan,

I’m no expert & would confine my testing to ground based. Find someone with basic electrical knowledge or ask your inspector.

You can measure current drawn from the battery with a clamp meter like this for less that 30 quid

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Digital-Voltage-Resistance-Frequency-Multimeter/dp/B016D7UEHW/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1472893638&sr=8-8&keywords=clamp+meter+dc+current

Clip that over the either battery cable then see how much current your master solenoid takes, try with the solenoid switched on & then switched off but bypassed with a fat wire or jump lead.

What ever is drawing power should be getting warm.

Stay clear of the prop.

Don’t go outside your competence zone as electrical errors can be expensive.

Good luck,

Roger.
Quote:
On 3 Sep 2016, at 09:04, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:



Hello All.

I have had this problem for sometime now, probably posted it here about a year ago.
However something is stealing my electricity, my voltmeter really indicates above 12 volts and the battery is all the time being very slowly drained over the course of time.

Just to keep the problem simple,
Flying 12v indicated, turn the Avionics Master Switch OFF, voltmeter shows say 12.5 volts , pull about every CB ( 914 so not the Fuel pump, but your could do it momentary if you wanted to)
So at about this point nearly all the power to the components is OFF

We have the engine modules and a couple of other things live,, but 99% is now OFF and still showing about 12 volts with practical every thing isolated ie OFF. Except the Mater Switch, PS I am not a builder,

Now turn the Master Switch OFF, and Hay Presto voltmeter jumps to 14 volts, now charging the battery nicely.

Fitted, New Battery, New Regulator/Rectifier, Volt meter on the brown cables to the Rectifier 14volts so no problem with Dynamo/Alt output.

Master Switch ON, clunk Master Switch OFF click,
Some relay, or starting circuit, When you put the Master ON clunk, is they some component staying engaged stealing my power when it should have dropped off line after engine staring ,
Hence when you switch the Master Switch OFF with the engine running, this click drops something off line which should have automatically dropped off line but with Master Off is the only to stop power getting to it,so making it drop off line manually.
Hence then you get the 14 volts showing.

Any thoughts on this,
Or a place I can take it to get it fixed,


Regards.
Alan




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ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:42 am    Post subject: Something is stealing my electricity Reply with quote

Hi! Alan,
As every one will vouch I am certainly no "sparky" but perhaps you have a
master solenoid which pulls about 1/2 amp which if left on overnight makes
for a no start situation before morning . However it is permanently on when
engine is running . I also remove the fuse for such as the clock which left
on over a month period also "cocks up" a clean start.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG.

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pjeffers(at)talktalk.net
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:43 am    Post subject: Something is stealing my electricity Reply with quote

Hi Alan,
You mention that the problem exists when you have the master switch on. You
need to establish if you have an electrically actuated battery isolation
switch. If you have, then this by itself will drain current to keep it
closed. ie to connect the battery to your circuits. You may find that the
builder of your aircraft used a starter isolation relay in error. These are
not continuously rated and do consume at least 3 amps to keep them closed.
Probably your problem.
Pete

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hagargs(at)earthlink.net
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:36 am    Post subject: Something is stealing my electricity Reply with quote

If you say you pulled every CB and you still have the problem you are loosing your current before that bus. Your problem is seemingly more than half solved now. You don't have to go chasing every component down stream of that. Check wiring and everything upstream of the circuit breakers. Its just a tedious job of troubleshooting. You may have a short to ground. Start at the positive terminal of the battery terminal and work your way back. Take an in line current meter and keep it attached. First use a clamp to find the magnitude of you extra current draw. That should give you some sort of clue. However if it is in the fractional amp range use a multi meter in line as the positive battery lead and just start disconnecting a wire at a time between downstream of the battery and upstream of the cb bus. When you current draw drops away when you disconnect a certain wire you then go to everything that wire goes to. Including the wires themselves. You may have some abraided insulation and have a slight short to ground or another wire. Look at any funny looking corrosion or debris around terminals etc. This is just a typical troubleshooting job. Someone will charge you a lot of money. Don't turn anything on or push the circuit breakers in if you don't want to have the ammeter on your multi meter smoked.

Steve Hagar
A 143
Mesa Az

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carlp101



Joined: 07 Mar 2016
Posts: 120

PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Something is stealing my electricity Reply with quote

Hi

The clunk/click is the battery isolator solenoid connecting/disconnection the battery from the aircraft electrics. When you switch off the master switch you see the volt meter jump to 14 volts because the engine's alternator is no longer connected to the battery and charging it.

So. When you are flying does the battery charge up? Does the the voltmeter ever show an increasing voltage whilst or after you are flying? If it does then the battery is charging.

Are your stall warner and/or trim indicator fed power via a breaker? If not, perhaps they are remaining in circuit and draining the battery. They are essential instruments and may have been fed directly from they battery and not via the master power bus (the main bus that is powered via the master switch).

Can you disconnected them over night and see if the battery voltage still drops?

I assume the volt meter you mention is not left in circuit across the battery all the time. If it is, this may be the cause of the power drain.


Good luck.
Carl
G-URMS


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rampil



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:55 am    Post subject: Re: Something is stealing my electricity Reply with quote

I think it would be quite appropriate at this point to dig out the "As Built"
schematics for your aircraft. It sounds like you are not the original builder
so you would find it quite useful and educational to trace the big fat
red wire (+) from the battery terminal to see where it goes. It should go,
after a very short run, to a small steel cylinder, less than 2 inches high
and about 1.5 inches in diameter. This is should be your Master Contactor.
The contactors commonly used in light aircraft draw about 800ma in the
control solenoid and it will certainly drain your battery if left on without
the alternator spinning.


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zwakie



Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 2:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Something is stealing my electricity Reply with quote

I agree with Ira, it's time to get the as built schematics. Without those, it's anybody's guess I would think.

And since we're guessing already, I might chime in... reading the original post there's two things going on:
1. Electricity is being used when all switches are OFF and engine is not running
2. Alternator field comes on-line when MASTER is OFF (suggested by the jump of voltage to 14 some Volts when switching to OFF)

I can think of one wiring scenario that explains both symptoms: this electrical system has a relay that brings the alternator field on-line when the MASTER switch is OFF.

When this scenario is indeed what we have here, I would think it is safe to assume also that this relay ONLY gets energized with the MASTER switch in the OFF position, otherwise you would see 14 some Volts with MASTER in the ON position also.

Don't ask me how you would have to wire things to make this happen, maybe the type of switch for the MASTER switch is of another type than you're thinking? Might be worthwhile to check, but again you would need the as built schematics to come to the proper conclusion...

One thing that is not mentioned is whether or not the battery is being charged when flying. If it is, this scenario would not explain the full picture...

I know, this all sounds far-fetched and unlikely, but it would we worthwhile checking...

(OK, go ahead and send me off to the nut-house now Wink )


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:44 am    Post subject: Something is stealing my electricity Reply with quote

I have to agree...
In a single master switch with the alternator (dynamo and Ducati regulator)
connected to the main bus with no shutoff, one would expect that the master
contactor would still be drawing current as the charge circuit is like
grounding the master contactor. The small current drain may not be allowing
full discharge of the master contactor. (A normal master contactor is hot
at all times and the contactor closes when the coil terminal is grounded.)
Normally, one would isolate the alternator with a switch or relay of some
sort of combination so it could be shut off in the event of a runaway
voltage regulator.

Again, you will need to consult with your electrical diagrams or if none
were provided, do some tedious electrical tracing to find your culprit. It
may be a weak contactor, a keep alive or always on circuit, or just a
misdirected circuit improperly wired. As I tell my clients, without
diagrams, it’s a real who dunnit.

Best Regards,

Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations, Inc.
US Europa Dealer

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2020 11:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Something is stealing my electricity Reply with quote

Yeah, your logic is working well, so you’re right. I think you should get it fixed somewhere. Those indicators are not supposed to be like that. Something is clearly going wrong. I’ve had a similar problem, but I got it quickly fixed with the help from the guys at Ongill Electric. I recommend you take it to a place like that, where professionals can repair it and you won’t have to pay much. Or just change it, maybe that will be easier to do rather than looking for a place where to fix it. Good luck with that.

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