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Magneto Toggle Switches

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user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1908
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:02 am Post subject: Magneto Toggle Switches

Here is minor modification to the mag switch wiring in Z-11.  The main feature of this mod is to increase safety by requiring BOTH mag switches to be in the momentary start position to crank the engine.  Inadvertently bumping only one switch, or kids intentionally operating only one switch, will not energize the starter.  

The left mag is enabled when its switch is in either the start or center position.

The right mag is only enabled when its switch is in the center position.

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_________________
Joe Gores

stephencliverichards(at)g
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:12 pm Post subject: Magneto Toggle Switches

Joe if you do not have a impulse coupler on the right mag this must be off for starting.Â  I would use a simple on off switch for each mag and a separate start button. Or a standard key operated mag selector switch with start position

 Clive

 On 4 Feb 2016 19:11, "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Here is minor modification to the mag switch wiring in Z-11.Â  The main feature of this mod is to increase safety by requiring BOTH mag switches to be in the momentary start position to crank the engine.Â  Inadvertently bumping only one switch, or kids intentionally operating only one switch, will not energize the starter.

 The left mag is enabled when its switch is in either the start or center position.

 The right mag is only enabled when its switch is in the center position.

 

 --------

 Joe Gores

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452608#452608

 

 

 

 

 Attachments:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/mag_switches_655.pdf

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/mag_switches_125.jpg

 

 

 

 

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user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1908
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: Magneto Toggle Switches

 	  Quote: 	
		  if you do not have a impulse coupler on the right mag this must be off for starting. 	


Yes, the right mag is off for starting.  Notice the bottom half of the right switch.  Whenever the switch is not in the center position, the right mag is off.  And the switch must be moved off center to start the engine.

  I agree that a key operated starter is the safest.  This circuit is not for me.  I drew this circuit at the request (quoted below) of someone who posted on VansAirforce.

 	  Quote: 	
		  If I was to use 2 toggle switches (left mag switch would have momentary position for starter) for my magnetos, how could I wire it so that it would operate like a keyed ignition switch, i.e., shut the right mag down during start, but automatically come online after I release the starter?

_________________
Joe Gores

stephencliverichards(at)g
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:47 am Post subject: Magneto Toggle Switches

Joe sorry you are correct I was looking at drawing on my phone & missed connection 1 to 3 on right mag.Clive

On 6 February 2016 at 00:47, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

 

 

 > if you do not have a impulse coupler on the right mag this must be off for starting.

 

 Yes, the right mag is off for starting.Â  Notice the bottom half of the right switch.Â  Whenever the switch is not in the center position, the right mag is off.Â  And the switch must be moved off center to start the engine.

 Â  I agree that a key operated starter is the safest.Â  This circuit is not for me.Â  I drew this circuit at the request (quoted below) of someone who posted on VansAirforce.

 

 > If I was to use 2 toggle switches (left mag switch would have momentary position for starter) for my magnetos, how could I wire it so that it would operate like a keyed ignition switch, i.e., shut the right mag down during start, but automatically come online after I release the starter?

 

 

 --------

 Joe Gores

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452629#452629

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 br> fts!)

 r> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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 ===========

  -

 Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

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 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

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millner(at)me.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:47 am Post subject: Magneto Toggle Switches

On 2/5/2016 4:47 PM, user9253 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   If I was to use 2 toggle switches (left mag switch would have momentary position for starter) for my magnetos, how could I wire it so that it would operate like a keyed ignition switch, i.e., shut the right mag down during start, but automatically come online after I release the starter?


	


Seems like you'd want the starter on the RIGHT mag toggle switch... and 

in the "start" position it grounds the right mag P-lead.



Paul

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1908
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Magneto Toggle Switches

 	  Quote: 	
		  Seems like you'd want the starter on the RIGHT mag toggle switch... and 

in the "start" position it grounds the right mag P-lead. 	


You are correct and that is what the circuit above does.  And in addition, the left switch must also be moved to the start position to enable starting.  The starter will not operate unless both switches are lifted up to the start position.  And while starting, the right mag is disabled.  If only one switch is up, the engine will not crank.

_________________
Joe Gores

billp(at)wwpc.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:56 am Post subject: Magneto Toggle Switches

Paul's right. If the mag with the impact coupler is the left mag (I 

think that's kind of standard), it's easiest to do this with the right 

mag switch. If you have a double pole double throw switch with the 

configuration ON-OFF-Momentary, you can use one pole for the for the 

starter and one pole for the mag P lead. On the pole for the mag, ground 

the common and run both the top and bottom switch legs to the mag P 

lead. The other pole runs battery to the starter relay. Common to the 

battery and Momentary to the relay. On the panel the "ON" position 

should be on the bottom of course and the "Momentary" should be on the top.

Make sure you test the switch contacts with a meter before you install 

it so you're sure which contacts are closed in which positions. Usually 

with a switch down the top and common contacts on the back to the switch 

are closed. It depends on the mechanical construction of the switch. You 

don't want to get a surprise when you turn the master on the fist time 

and have the starter running with an un-grounded P lead.

Bill

  2/5/16 17:03, Paul Millner wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On 2/5/2016 4:47 PM, user9253 wrote:

> If I was to use 2 toggle switches (left mag switch would have 

> momentary position for starter) for my magnetos, how could I wire it 

> so that it would operate like a keyed ignition switch, i.e., shut the 

> right mag down during start, but automatically come online after I 

> release the starter?

 Seems like you'd want the starter on the RIGHT mag toggle switch... 

 and in the "start" position it grounds the right mag P-lead.

 Paul

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1908
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Magneto Toggle Switches

Bill Millner, you are absolutely correct as is Paul. And my circuit posted above does exactly what you recommend.

_________________
Joe Gores

billp(at)wwpc.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:45 am Post subject: Magneto Toggle Switches

If you interlock the switches so that they both have to be "HOT" to run 

the starter, you deprive yourself of the ability to turn the starter a 

few blades to move some oil around the engine before you actually start 

the engine.

If you have the left switch just an Off-Hot switch and have the right 

switch be an Off-Hot-Start switch you can run the starter motor without 

starting the engine.

Bill

On 2/6/16 08:49, user9253 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

> Seems like you'd want the starter on the RIGHT mag toggle switch... and

> in the "start" position it grounds the right mag P-lead.

 You are correct and that is what the circuit above does.  And in addition, the left switch must also be moved to the start position to enable starting.  The starter will not operate unless both switches are lifted up to the start position.  And while starting, the right mag is disabled.  If only one switch is up, the engine will not crank.

 --------

 Joe Gores

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452646#452646

email(at)jaredyates.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:12 am Post subject: Magneto Toggle Switches

I'd be glad to give that ability up in order to eliminate the chance of a pilot running a battery dead trying to start an engine with no fire. If there is really a desire to dry motor, one could do so by eliminating fuel instead of spark, but I'm doubtful that it is especially beneficial in the long term. 

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Feb 6, 2016, at 12:43, Bill Putney <billp(at)wwpc.com> wrote:

 If you interlock the switches so that they both have to be "HOT" to run the starter, you deprive yourself of the ability to turn the starter a few blades to move some oil around the engine before you actually start the engine.

 If you have the left switch just an Off-Hot switch and have the right switch be an Off-Hot-Start switch you can run the starter motor without starting the engine.

 Bill

> On 2/6/16 08:49, user9253 wrote:

> 

> 

> 

>> Seems like you'd want the starter on the RIGHT mag toggle switch... and

>> in the "start" position it grounds the right mag P-lead.

> You are correct and that is what the circuit above does.  And in addition, the left switch must also be moved to the start position to enable starting.  The starter will not operate unless both switches are lifted up to the start position.  And while starting, the right mag is disabled.  If only one switch is up, the engine will not crank.

> 

> --------

> Joe Gores

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452646#452646

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1908
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:24 am Post subject: Re: Magneto Toggle Switches

 	  Quote: 	
		  you deprive yourself of the ability to turn the starter a 

few blades to move some oil around the engine before you actually start 

the engine 	


Right again.  But I am not wiring my plane this way.  I drew this circuit for someone else who wants it like this.  You can read his VansAirforce post:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=134260

Don't key operated mag-start switches have the same limitation?

_________________
Joe Gores

andymeyer

Joined: 31 Mar 2015
Posts: 54
Location: SW MI

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:24 am Post subject: Magneto Toggle Switches

Another reason not to do this is the dynamics of starting... I tend to release the starter before the engine reaches idle.  You don't want to be firing the non impulse mag at rpms below idle. (after you release the starter) 

Also,  on a failed start,  if the non impulse mag catches while the prop is still turning,  you fire before TDC and will have a kick back.  

Wait until idle before you turn on your non impulse mag.  With the push key types,  you have a small delay,  where as with these switches,  it'll be almost instant.  I've got two switches and a push button to start.  Put a safety over the starter switch.  It'll be about as safe as telling so one not to push two switches in the same direction at the same time.  Or,  reverse the wiring on the non impulse mag switch...  Down to crank,  middle is mag grounded,  and up is mag hot. Then, twist the switches (left up,  right down)  to start,  then raise the right mag to turn it on.  

Happy Flyin'! 

Andy



Time: 07:47:45 AM PST US

Subject: AeroElectric-List: Magneto Toggle Switches

From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com>



On 2/5/2016 4:47 PM, user9253 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   If I was to use 2 toggle switches (left mag switch would have momentary position

for starter) for my magnetos, how could I wire it so that it would operate
	


like a keyed ignition switch, i.e., shut the right mag down during start, but

automatically come online after I release the starter?



Seems like you'd want the starter on the RIGHT mag toggle switch... and 

in the "start" position it grounds the right mag P-lead.



Paul



Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452646#452646

jbsoar(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:52 am Post subject: Magneto Toggle Switches

Make this easy!Â  Use one switch for the non-impulse mag.Â  After start, turn the non-impulse mag on.If you really need to conserve the panel space, use a momentary on toggle for the left mag/start.Â  Off-On-Start.Â  The key switches have been known to ground out, and they are complex to wire.Â  They are look goofy.Â  The airplane industry was attempting to emulate the auto industry...

To check your mags, turn off, (actually ground,) the mag you are not checking. Â 

This the simplest way!Â  Cost effective! Â 

Actually, one switch for each mag and a separate starter button is the way to go.Â  Simple to wire.Â  Individual components are cheap and easy to replace if they ever fail.





On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 8:49 AM, ameyer <ameyer(at)mil-amax.com (ameyer(at)mil-amax.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Another reason not to do this is the dynamics of starting... I tend to release the starter before the engine reaches idle.Â  You don't want to be firing the non impulse mag at rpms below idle. (after you release the starter)Â 

Also, Â on a failed start, Â if the non impulse mag catches while the prop is still turning, Â you fire before TDC and will have a kick back. Â 

Wait until idle before you turn on your non impulse mag.Â  With the push key types, Â you have a small delay, Â where as with these switches, Â it'll be almost instant.Â  I've got two switches and a push button to start.Â  Put a safety over the starter switch.Â  It'll be about as safe as telling so one not to push two switches in the same direction at the same time.Â  Or, Â reverse the wiring on the non impulse mag switch...Â  Down to crank, Â middle is mag grounded, Â and up is mag hot. Then, twist the switches (left up, Â right down) Â to start, Â then raise the right mag to turn it on. Â 

Happy Flyin'!Â 

Andy



Time: 07:47:45 AM PST US

Subject: AeroElectric-List: Magneto Toggle Switches

From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com (millner(at)me.com)>



On 2/5/2016 4:47 PM, user9253 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   If I was to use 2 toggle switches (left mag switch would have momentary position

for starter) for my magnetos, how could I wire it so that it would operate
	


like a keyed ignition switch, i.e., shut the right mag down during start, but

automatically come online after I release the starter?



Seems like you'd want the starter on the RIGHT mag toggle switch... and 

in the "start" position it grounds the right mag P-lead.



Paul



Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452646#452646

JOHN TIPTON

Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 239
Location: Torquay - England

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:17 am Post subject: Magneto Toggle Switches

Wow ---



Sent from my iPad



     ----x--O--x----

On 7 Feb 2016, at 03:49 pm, ameyer <ameyer(at)mil-amax.com (ameyer(at)mil-amax.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Another reason not to do this is the dynamics of starting... I tend to release the starter before the engine reaches idle.  You don't want to be firing the non impulse mag at rpms below idle. (after you release the starter) 

Also,  on a failed start,  if the non impulse mag catches while the prop is still turning,  you fire before TDC and will have a kick back.  

Wait until idle before you turn on your non impulse mag.  With the push key types,  you have a small delay,  where as with these switches,  it'll be almost instant.  I've got two switches and a push button to start.  Put a safety over the starter switch.  It'll be about as safe as telling so one not to push two switches in the same direction at the same time.  Or,  reverse the wiring on the non impulse mag switch...  Down to crank,  middle is mag grounded,  and up is mag hot. Then, twist the switches (left up,  right down)  to start,  then raise the right mag to turn it on.  

Happy Flyin'! 

Andy



Time: 07:47:45 AM PST US

Subject: Magneto Toggle Switches

From: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com (millner(at)me.com)>



On 2/5/2016 4:47 PM, user9253 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   If I was to use 2 toggle switches (left mag switch would have momentary position

for starter) for my magnetos, how could I wire it so that it would operate
	


like a keyed ignition switch, i.e., shut the right mag down during start, but

automatically come online after I release the starter?



Seems like you'd want the starter on the RIGHT mag toggle switch... and 

in the "start" position it grounds the right mag P-lead.



Paul



Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452646#452646

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