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max8992

Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 142

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:42 pm Post subject: water drain

Hi there All,



Who uses water drain? Who as ever seen water in the fuel there (I use Mogas only)?



Cheers,

Max  Cointe

F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear

Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 540 hours



F-PLDJ Dynâ€™AÃ©ro MCR 4S 

Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1660 heures

_________________
Max8992
Europa XS #560 F-PMLH

stabelvej9(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:51 pm Post subject: water drain

Hi Max



I fly on mo-gas and use water-drain  -  never seen a drop of water.

I always leave the ac with full tank.

AC parked in hangar during the summer, and in my isolated shop from November to April.



Regards Gert



Gert Dalgaard, 

Denmark  



OY-GDS

Europa Mono/914/750 hrs.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Den 22/03/2015 kl. 08.41 skrev Max Cointe (Free) <mcointe(at)free.fr>:

 

 

 

 Hi there All,

 

 Who uses water drain? Who as ever seen water in the fuel there (I use Mogas only)?

 

 Cheers,

 Max  Cointe

 F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear

 Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 540 hours

 

 F-PLDJ Dynâ€™AÃ©ro MCR 4S 

 Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1660 heures

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:11 am Post subject: water drain

Have never seen any water in 13 years, even though I do not regularly fill tank before putting plane away. Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ  

 

On 2015-03-22 07:41, Max Cointe (Free) wrote: [quote]  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Max Cointe (Free)" <mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)>



Hi there All,



Who uses water drain? Who as ever seen water in the fuel there (I use Mogas only)?



Cheers,

Max  Cointe

F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear

Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 540 hours



F-PLDJ Dyn'Aéro MCR 4S 

Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1660 heures





ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

ics.com

.matronics.com/contribution



	
 [b]

ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:22 am Post subject: water drain

Hi all ! 

I had an incident of substantial ingress of water once while parked overnight at Zell Am See in torrential down pour most of the night.

I have adjusted the â€œpinchâ€ on the filler â€œoâ€ Ring and mostly tape up the filler cap if left outside ever. The aircraft is always kept in itâ€™s covered trailer and I try to fly exclusively on Mogas but Â donâ€™t leave it full but I have water drains to both sides of the tank ALSO Mini Andair filters on both fuel flow lines..Â  Of course everyone will remember my misfortune of Â a Â restriction at the finger filters once,Â  at which time Neville Eyre suggested â€œI shave the dogâ€ ! but the dog has long gone and I have â€œimproved the tank finger filter arrangementsâ€ . However I have also in the past discovered some contamination in the thimble filters in the Electric Pumps ( the removal of these for inspection requires extreme care , can only be repaired by complete replacement of the Pumps !) Hope Iâ€™m not tempting providence by writing all this !

Regards

Bob HarrisonÂ  G-PTAG. 914 Rotax.

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk

Sent: 22 March 2015 10:11

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: water drain

 

 

Have never seen any water in 13 years, even though I do not regularly fill tank before putting plane away. Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ

 



On 2015-03-22 07:41, Max Cointe (Free) wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Max Cointe (Free)" <mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)> Hi there All, Who uses water drain? Who as ever seen water in the fuel there (I use Mogas only)? Cheers,MaxÂ  CointeF-PMLH Europa XS_TriGearKit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 540 hours 	
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rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:09 am Post subject: water drain

Max,

Fly only AvGas.  No drains.  Have gascolator before pump.  No inline filters.  Keep the tank full whenever possible.  Use a cover if I ever have to park outside when traveling.



Have never seen evidence water in the tank.



Blue skies & tailwinds,Bob BorgerEuropa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs).Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP3705 Lynchburg Dr.Corinth, TX  76208-5331Cel: 817-992-1117rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)



[quote]On Mar 22, 2015, at 1:41 AM, Max Cointe (Free) <mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)> wrote:

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Max Cointe (Free)" <mcointe(at)free.fr (mcointe(at)free.fr)>Hi there All,Who uses water drain? Who as ever seen water in the fuel there (I use Mogas only)?Cheers,Max  CointeF-PMLH Europa XS_TriGearKit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 540 hoursF-PLDJ Dynâ€™AÃ©ro MCR 4S Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1660 heures

[b]

dpark748(at)icloud.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:10 am Post subject: water drain

Use Mogas occasional Avgas, never seen water.

Dave G-LDVO



Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 22 Mar 2015, at 07:41, Max Cointe (Free) <mcointe(at)free.fr> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi there All,

 

 Who uses water drain? Who as ever seen water in the fuel there (I use Mogas only)?

 

 Cheers,

 Max  Cointe

 F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear

 Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 540 hours

 

 F-PLDJ Dynâ€™AÃ©ro MCR 4S 

 Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1660 heures

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:51 am Post subject: water drain

Hi

Same, use Mogas occasional Avgas, never seen water.



Tim



Tim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street

Fendalton,

Christchurch,  8052

New Zealand.



ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz



Ph 64 3 3515166

Mob 0210640221

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 23/03/2015, at 6:09 am, david park <dpark748(at)icloud.com> wrote:

 

 Use Mogas occasional Avgas, never seen water.

grahamhall123(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:57 am Post subject: water drain

Since getting my ppl in the late 80's I have always checked fuel drains as part of pre-flight, even when pushed to get going on business trips. On one occasion one tank of my 182 was clear fluid which did not smell like fuel and did not evaporate. Transpired I had about 2 liters rainwater in one tank. I will always check water drains- it only takes a minute and from my own experience is a minute well spent. 'to fail to look is to look to fail'.



On Mar 22, 2015, at 7:41 AM, "Max Cointe (Free)" <mcointe(at)free.fr> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi there All,

 

 Who uses water drain? Who as ever seen water in the fuel there (I use Mogas only)?

 

 Cheers,

 Max  Cointe

 F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear

 Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 540 hours

 

 F-PLDJ Dynâ€™AÃ©ro MCR 4S 

 Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1660 heures

JonathanMilbank

Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 384
Location: Aberdeen area

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: water drain

I had a small number of occasions when I found a few drops of water in my mogas. My aircraft was parked outside for several years and had Jaxida covers. But the fabric got old and needed to be washed and treated with water-proofing liquid more frequently.



Rarely after heavy prolonged rain storms, I would find a few drops in the fuel sample. The cap and 'O' ring were tight enough, but I guessed that the fabric of the covers in contact with the tank breather tube was acting like a wick to convey water into the breather. When I taped plastic over the tube before putting on the cover, there was no water ingress.

klinefelter.kevin(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:13 pm Post subject: water drain

Me too, almost all Mogas (with up to 10% ethanol) and never seen water.

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Mar 22, 2015, at 11:50 AM, Timward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi

 Same, use Mogas occasional Avgas, never seen water.

 

 Tim

 

 Tim Ward

 12 Waiwetu Street

 Fendalton,

 Christchurch,  8052

 New Zealand.

 

 ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz

 

 Ph 64 3 3515166

 Mob 0210640221

 

 

> On 23/03/2015, at 6:09 am, david park <dpark748(at)icloud.com> wrote:

> 

> Use Mogas occasional Avgas, never seen water.

ken carp

Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Posts: 29
Location: Knoxville, TN

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:01 pm Post subject: water drain

Never in twelve years found water in Europa, 100LL or Mogas.  Did find water in 182 after it left out in rain with original cap not tight.  Went to Monarch caps and no further water but I still check if any plane been outside in rain.  Fueling at strange fields will get you water as happened to me twice.

Sent from my iPad

Ken Carpenter

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Mar 22, 2015, at 3:56 PM, Grahamhall123(at)gmail.com <grahamhall123(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 Since getting my ppl in the late 80's I have always checked fuel drains as part of pre-flight, even when pushed to get going on business trips. On one occasion one tank of my 182 was clear fluid which did not smell like fuel and did not evaporate. Transpired I had about 2 liters rainwater in one tank. I will always check water drains- it only takes a minute and from my own experience is a minute well spent. 'to fail to look is to look to fail'.

> On Mar 22, 2015, at 7:41 AM, "Max Cointe (Free)" <mcointe(at)free.fr> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> Hi there All,

> 

> Who uses water drain? Who as ever seen water in the fuel there (I use Mogas only)?

> 

> Cheers,

> Max  Cointe

> F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear

> Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 540 hours

> 

> F-PLDJ Dynâ€™AÃ©ro MCR 4S 

> Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1660 heures

_________________
ken carpenter

nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:45 am Post subject: water drain

And the reason for that is probably there in that sentence.

The more ethanol in your fuel, the less likely you you will ever see 

water at the drains.

Ethanol readily attaches itself to water meaning that any water 

contamination is distributed throughout the fuel. Gone are the days when 

it sat conveniently at the bottom of the tank waiting to be drained.



The truth is that there is probably already water in your fuel before 

you ever put it into your aircraft.

Water is notoriously difficult to detect and even harder to quantify. 

Fuel distribution companies dip their storage tanks with a crude 

dipstick coated with a water sensitive paste that changes colour when 

water is detected. More modern float detectors (carefully weighted to 

float on water, but under the fuel) used in bulk storage tanks work to a 

degree, but the non-predictable way that water distributes itself 

throughout the  fuel means that the indication is little better.



There is no pressing desire by these companies to improve the situation 

since there is a healthy profit to be made by selling water at fuel 

prices, (a trick that the poultry and pork industries learned many years 

ago).



My only advice would be that if you ever do drain a significant quantity 

of water from a tank known to contain ethanol fuel, discard the entire 

contents as the water will still be attached to the ethanol that was 

added to raise the octane rating and the remaining fuel could seriously 

damage your engine.



Nigel

On 22/03/2015 21:13, Kevin Klinefelter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Me too, almost all Mogas (with up to 10% ethanol) and never seen water.

> On Mar 22, 2015, at 11:50 AM, Timward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz> wrote:

>

> 

>

> Hi

> Same, use Mogas occasional Avgas, never seen water.

>

> Tim

>

> Tim Ward

> 12 Waiwetu Street

> Fendalton,

> Christchurch,  8052

> New Zealand.

>

> ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz

>

> Ph 64 3 3515166

> Mob 0210640221

>> On 23/03/2015, at 6:09 am, david park <dpark748(at)icloud.com> wrote:

>>

>> Use Mogas occasional Avgas, never seen water.

>

Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:20 am Post subject: Re: water drain

I have found a lot of water in one wing tank of a rented Robin DR400 after parking one night under heavy rain. It was about 30 years ago at Sandown, Isle of Wight. I would have been in trouble if I had taken off on that tank without prior draining. Since I fly my Europa (13 years and more than 1100 hours flown) I never found water while draining the tank using the optional drains. I never found water in the gascolator either. But I find drops of water in the carb bowls occasionally. So I keep draining. 

In my opinion, the drains as designed in factory Mod 33, are not very effective because the water has first to overcome gravity to have a chance to get out and the volume trapped inside the hose between the bottom of the tank and the drain is way too big. I made my own mod to the mod using 4mm hose instead of 8mm. This reduces the trapped volume by 75%, but I still have some doubt about the effectivity of the system.

Remi Guerner

F-PGKL

max8992

Joined: 28 Jul 2011
Posts: 142

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:47 am Post subject: water drain

Thks to each and everyone who took time to answer. Rémi (how are you doing?)

you've stolen my words! I'm currently replacing all the pipes and no

applying Mod 33 will save 6 connections (6 additional risks of leak) and one

meter long of pipe for a very contestable result...



Max  Cointe

mcointe(at)free.fr

F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear

Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 540 hours



F-PLDJ Dyn’Aéro MCR 4S 

Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1660 heures

-----Message d'origine-----

De : owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de Remi Guerner

Envoyé : lundi 23 mars 2015 10:21

À : europa-list(at)matronics.com

Objet : Re: water drain




--> <air.guerner(at)orange.fr>



I have found a lot of water in one wing tank of a rented Robin DR400 after

parking one night under heavy rain. It was about 30 years ago at Sandown,

Isle of Wight. I would have been in trouble if I had taken off on that tank

without prior draining. Since I fly my Europa (13 years and more than 1100

hours flown) I never found water while draining the tank using the optional

drains. I never found water in the gascolator either. But I find drops of

water in the carb bowls occasionally. So I keep draining. 

In my opinion, the drains as designed in factory Mod 33, are not very

effective because the water has first to overcome gravity to have a chance

to get out and the volume trapped inside the hose between the bottom of the

tank and the drain is way too big. I made my own mod to the mod using 4mm

hose instead of 8mm. This reduces the trapped volume by 75%, but I still

have some doubt about the effectivity of the system.

Remi Guerner

F-PGKL





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439756#439756

_________________
Max8992
Europa XS #560 F-PMLH

klinefelter.kevin(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:12 am Post subject: water drain

Well stated Nigel. That's why I made sure to mention ethanol. 

I perform the test for ethanol  on fuel I buy periodically, where you add a measured amount of water to a sampler, shake it up and the water level increases with the absorption of the ethanol. 

I sure wish they didn't put that crap in fuel.

My Monowheel is based in eastern California (4100' desert climate) so moisture is not typically a condensation problem at home base. But I'm going to be heading to Florida for Sun&Fun soon !

Kevin

914/Airmaster

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Mar 23, 2015, at 1:44 AM, Nigel Graham <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk> wrote:

 And the reason for that is probably there in that sentence.

 The more ethanol in your fuel, the less likely you you will ever see water at the drains.

 Ethanol readily attaches itself to water meaning that any water contamination is distributed throughout the fuel. Gone are the days when it sat conveniently at the bottom of the tank waiting to be drained.

 The truth is that there is probably already water in your fuel before you ever put it into your aircraft.

 Water is notoriously difficult to detect and even harder to quantify. Fuel distribution companies dip their storage tanks with a crude dipstick coated with a water sensitive paste that changes colour when water is detected. More modern float detectors (carefully weighted to float on water, but under the fuel) used in bulk storage tanks work to a degree, but the non-predictable way that water distributes itself throughout the  fuel means that the indication is little better.

 There is no pressing desire by these companies to improve the situation since there is a healthy profit to be made by selling water at fuel prices, (a trick that the poultry and pork industries learned many years ago).

 My only advice would be that if you ever do drain a significant quantity of water from a tank known to contain ethanol fuel, discard the entire contents as the water will still be attached to the ethanol that was added to raise the octane rating and the remaining fuel could seriously damage your engine.

 Nigel

> On 22/03/2015 21:13, Kevin Klinefelter wrote:

> 

> 

> Me too, almost all Mogas (with up to 10% ethanol) and never seen water.

> 

> 

>> On Mar 22, 2015, at 11:50 AM, Timward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz> wrote:

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> Hi

>> Same, use Mogas occasional Avgas, never seen water.

>> 

>> Tim

>> 

>> Tim Ward

>> 12 Waiwetu Street

>> Fendalton,

>> Christchurch,  8052

>> New Zealand.

>> 

>> ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz

>> 

>> Ph 64 3 3515166

>> Mob 0210640221

>> 

>> 

>>> On 23/03/2015, at 6:09 am, david park <dpark748(at)icloud.com> wrote:

>>> 

>>> Use Mogas occasional Avgas, never seen water.

Scudrunner

Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Posts: 26

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:36 am Post subject: Re: water drain

I always refuel my Europa before my walk around and test for water at the end - allows time for any water to settle?. I also use a Mr Funnel water seperator funnel though. Fuel is mogas. I drain half a jam jar per side (perhaps it should be a full one?). Only recently (cold winter) have I seen a cloudy sample with "bubbles" that sink rather than float. Once settled, it was no more than half a teaspoon. I'm assuming that this was condensation in a 3/4 empty tank? (aircraft hangared).



Howard

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:56 am Post subject: water drain

Coulld be dilute water/alcohol which would sink?

Graham

        From: Scudrunner <howardbrooksster(at)gmail.com>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Monday, 23 March 2015, 17:36

 Subject: Re: water drain

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Scudrunner" <howardbrooksster(at)gmail.com (howardbrooksster(at)gmail.com)>

I always refuel my Europa before my walk around and test for water at the end - allows time for any water to settle?. I also use a Mr Funnel water seperator funnel though. Fuel is mogas. I drain half a jam jar per side (perhaps it should be a full one?). Only recently (cold winter) have I seen a cloudy sample with "bubbles" that sink rather than float. Once settled, it was no more than half a teaspoon. I'm assuming that this was condensation in a 3/4 empty tank? (aircraft hangared).

Howard

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439782#439782

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