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51% Rule saga continues

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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:48 pm Post subject: 51% Rule saga continues

I do see a bit of irony that Van is a co chair of this committee and he is knowingly selling kits to people that violate the rule…..  

   

http://www.eaa.org/communications/eaanews/060914_rights.html  

   

Michael Sausen  

-10 #352 Fuselage  

Do not archive  

      [quote][b]

jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:44 pm Post subject: 51% Rule saga continues

IF I were to buy an RV-10 kit to build  for someone else I would buy in their name not my own. Their check &  signature. Shipping address..? ? Have it delivered to a local dock in the  'builders/payers" name. 

 Why ? ? So he/she, the "buyer", could obtain the Repairman's Certificate.  Without a name & address of the "real builder" is Van now to play cop too.  Key word "KNOWINGLY", there is a big difference between Thinking,  believing, having a hunch and having proof & knowledge. Key word "PROOF".  

 KABONG   Ex-Det. Sgt & DA liaison for Fontana PD. Do Not  Archive

 [quote]   ---

pascalreid(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:22 pm Post subject: 51% Rule saga continues

There are many more than Van's to blame- does he  have the right to not sell to anyone? probably not worth a lawsuit, he has  enough of those already with the Harmon Rocket's, is it worth the loss of  business? I think not, how about those inspectors? The DAR and/or FAA that allow  these planes to get into the market, certainly they are aware who is a builder  for education/hobby and one in it for resale. Not saying that N325HP (at)  $230K out there on Aerotrader for sale wasn't built for education  (truthfully it may very well have been ) but when I see "Prof built,  high-end. 320HP" with 20, yes, 20 hours total time  I have to ask myself  what the motivation was for many of these low time planes that are just  finishing up the testing time, and for so high??  

  

 My point is, that certainly Van sold the kits but  he is taking a stance to assure he works with the EAA and FAA to protect those  of us who have a passion to build for our own education, entertainment and long  term enjoyment. As a Lancair convert I'll say that Van's, the builders, and the  flyers of RV aircraft have something special not seen elsewhere. By Van's being in the leadership  for this committee, I see it as he is ready to take his time to assure we  all (at least the one's doing it for the reason Experimental category was  created) benefit in the future knowing he could lose a nice chunk of his  business. It's a good thing!

  

 Pascal

  

 This is strictly my opinion and is subject to  change without notice, reason or logic

  

  

  

 Do not archive

 ---

VHMUM(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:49 am Post subject: 51% Rule saga continues

Let that one go to the keeper!!

  

 Chris 

  

 Do not archive

 [quote]   ---

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:26 am Post subject: 51% Rule saga continues

As long as the original purchaser can sell their interest along the path to completion, and the purchaser fraudulently represents they built it, the problem continues to exist. Hired guns can always find a way.  Joe Bartel (Lancair kits), also on the committee is in partnership with one of the most expensive and finest hired guns over in Bend.  Joe is also a nice guy, hard working owner and an attorney to boot. Ethics are so entertaining. Money talks loudly and clearly.  

   

Who is the voice for the individual builders being hurt by the flood of units for sale (20%)?  

   

John Cox  

#40600  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JOHN STARN

 Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 7:43 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: 51% Rule saga continues  

  

     

[b]IF[/b] I were to buy an RV-10 kit to build for someone else I would buy in their name not my own. Their check & signature. Shipping address..? ? Have it delivered to a local dock in the 'builders/payers" name.   

    

Why ? ? So he/she, the "buyer", could obtain the Repairman's Certificate. Without a name & address of the "real builder" is Van now to play cop too. Key word "KNOWINGLY", there is a big difference between Thinking, believing, having a hunch and having proof & knowledge. Key word "PROOF".   

    

KABONG   Ex-Det. Sgt & DA liaison for Fontana PD. Do Not Archive  

  [quote]    

---

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:16 am Post subject: 51% Rule saga continues

Guys, you are taking my comment a bit far.  I just think it’s funny.  There is NO rule that says he has to police who he sells kit’s to and if I was in his shoes I wouldn’t forsake a sale if I didn’t have to.  He’s not in the wrong, just interesting he is a co chair of a committee to stop something he is doing.  

   

  Now it’s not a bad idea as he has firsthand knowledge of what is going on out there and he can hopefully help craft the new rules so it doesn’t affect the rest of us.  

   

Michael  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal

 Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 10:22 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: 51% Rule saga continues  

  

  

     

There are many more than Van's to blame- does he have the right to not sell to anyone? probably not worth a lawsuit, he has enough of those already with the Harmon Rocket's, is it worth the loss of business? I think not, how about those inspectors? The DAR and/or FAA that allow these planes to get into the market, certainly they are aware who is a builder for education/hobby and one in it for resale. Not saying that N325HP (at) $230K out there on Aerotrader for sale wasn't built for education (truthfully it may very well have been ) but when I see "Prof built, high-end. 320HP" with 20, yes, 20 hours total time  I have to ask myself what the motivation was for many of these low time planes that are just finishing up the testing time, and for so high??    

    

   

    

My point is, that certainly Van sold the kits but he is taking a stance to assure he works with the EAA and FAA to protect those of us who have a passion to build for our own education, entertainment and long term enjoyment. As a Lancair convert I'll say that Van's, the builders, and the flyers of RV aircraft have something special not seen elsewhere. By Van's being in the leadership for this committee, I see it as he is ready to take his time to assure we all (at least the one's doing it for the reason Experimental category was created) benefit in the future knowing he could lose a nice chunk of his business. It's a good thing!  

    

   

    

Pascal  

    

   

    

This is strictly my opinion and is subject to change without notice, reason or logic  

    

   

    

   

    

   

    

Do not archive  

    

----- Original Message -----   

   	  Quote: 	
		      

From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) (rvbuilder(at)sausen.net)   

    

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 6:48 PM  

    

Subject: 51% Rule saga continues  

    

   

  

I do see a bit of irony that Van is a co chair of this committee and he is knowingly selling kits to people that violate the rule…..  

   

http://www.eaa.org/communications/eaanews/060914_rights.html  

   

Michael Sausen  

-10 #352 Fuselage  

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      [quote][b]

pascalreid(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:43 am Post subject: 51% Rule saga continues

I am rather sensitive to this as a future  builder who will have to deal with the consequences of the few who are abusing  the purpose of building these planes. I think it's a step in the right direction  for Van's, as you mentioned, as well as  because he understands the  consequence of not doing it and the possibility of the FAA making potential  sales more difficult for his company down the line, but I also think he has seen  too many cases of people messing with his designs, and blaming his company for  it, this to include build for profit outfits that crank out examples like  the pictures we saw a few months ago of outright lousy work, including the rust  spots. It is rare any of us building the RV-10 are doing anything less than the  best we can knowing it will keep up in the air and we have confidence in the  work we did, not to mention pride.. Somehow there are companies out there doing  it right , maybe even better than us, but there is no where near the pride we  have building and maintaining our own planes.

  Van's is ready to be part of the leadership  to assure it remains that way- in the end we all gain from this.

  

 [quote]   ---

rv10(at)sinkrate.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:49 am Post subject: 51% Rule saga continues

Why do you say “something he is doing”?  Van’s isn’t responsible in any way.  Why would blame fall on them AT ALL?  It is the action of a few individuals that are allegedly abusing the intent of experimental aircraft building.  How is this “something he is doing”?  

   

-Ben  

   

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)

 Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 10:16 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: 51% Rule saga continues  

  

   

  Guys, you are taking my comment a bit far.  I just think it’s funny.  There is NO rule that says he has to police who he sells kit’s to and if I was in his shoes I wouldn’t forsake a sale if I didn’t have to.  He’s not in the wrong, just interesting he is a co chair of a committee to stop something he is doing.  

   

  Now it’s not a bad idea as he has firsthand knowledge of what is going on out there and he can hopefully help craft the new rules so it doesn’t affect the rest of us.  

   

Michael  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal

 Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 10:22 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: 51% Rule saga continues  

  

  

     

There are many more than Van's to blame- does he have the right to not sell to anyone? probably not worth a lawsuit, he has enough of those already with the Harmon Rocket's, is it worth the loss of business? I think not, how about those inspectors? The DAR and/or FAA that allow these planes to get into the market, certainly they are aware who is a builder for education/hobby and one in it for resale. Not saying that N325HP (at) $230K out there on Aerotrader for sale wasn't built for education (truthfully it may very well have been ) but when I see "Prof built, high-end. 320HP" with 20, yes, 20 hours total time  I have to ask myself what the motivation was for many of these low time planes that are just finishing up the testing time, and for so high??    

    

   

    

My point is, that certainly Van sold the kits but he is taking a stance to assure he works with the EAA and FAA to protect those of us who have a passion to build for our own education, entertainment and long term enjoyment. As a Lancair convert I'll say that Van's, the builders, and the flyers of RV aircraft have something special not seen elsewhere. By Van's being in the leadership for this committee, I see it as he is ready to take his time to assure we all (at least the one's doing it for the reason Experimental category was created) benefit in the future knowing he could lose a nice chunk of his business. It's a good thing!  

    

   

    

Pascal  

    

   

    

This is strictly my opinion and is subject to change without notice, reason or logic  

    

   

    

   

    

   

    

Do not archive  

    

---

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:50 am Post subject: 51% Rule saga continues

Let’s be real here.  Van knows EXACTLY who is building the -10 and other models for profit.    He’s not naïve to who is a repeat offend for profit only.  THAT is what I mean.  But like I said, VAN isn’t doing a darn thing wrong, he is just selling a bunch of parts to a consumer and there is no regulation that says he has to police the 51% rule.  If the person he sells it to decided to break the intent of the rule, that is their problem, not Van’s.  

   

Michael  

Do not archive  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Westfall

 Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 1:51 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: 51% Rule saga continues  

  

  

   

Why do you say “something he is doing”?  Van’s isn’t responsible in any way.  Why would blame fall on them AT ALL?  It is the action of a few individuals that are allegedly abusing the intent of experimental aircraft building.  How is this “something he is doing”?  

   

-Ben  

   

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)

 Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 10:16 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: 51% Rule saga continues  

  

   

  Guys, you are taking my comment a bit far.  I just think it’s funny.  There is NO rule that says he has to police who he sells kit’s to and if I was in his shoes I wouldn’t forsake a sale if I didn’t have to.  He’s not in the wrong, just interesting he is a co chair of a committee to stop something he is doing.  

   

  Now it’s not a bad idea as he has firsthand knowledge of what is going on out there and he can hopefully help craft the new rules so it doesn’t affect the rest of us.  

   

Michael  

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pascal

 Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 10:22 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: 51% Rule saga continues  

  

  

     

There are many more than Van's to blame- does he have the right to not sell to anyone? probably not worth a lawsuit, he has enough of those already with the Harmon Rocket's, is it worth the loss of business? I think not, how about those inspectors? The DAR and/or FAA that allow these planes to get into the market, certainly they are aware who is a builder for education/hobby and one in it for resale. Not saying that N325HP (at) $230K out there on Aerotrader for sale wasn't built for education (truthfully it may very well have been ) but when I see "Prof built, high-end. 320HP" with 20, yes, 20 hours total time  I have to ask myself what the motivation was for many of these low time planes that are just finishing up the testing time, and for so high??    

    

   

    

My point is, that certainly Van sold the kits but he is taking a stance to assure he works with the EAA and FAA to protect those of us who have a passion to build for our own education, entertainment and long term enjoyment. As a Lancair convert I'll say that Van's, the builders, and the flyers of RV aircraft have something special not seen elsewhere. By Van's being in the leadership for this committee, I see it as he is ready to take his time to assure we all (at least the one's doing it for the reason Experimental category was created) benefit in the future knowing he could lose a nice chunk of his business. It's a good thing!  

    

   

    

Pascal  

    

   

    

This is strictly my opinion and is subject to change without notice, reason or logic  

    

   

    

   

    

   

    

Do not archive  

    

----- Original Message -----   

   	  Quote: 	
		      

From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) (rvbuilder(at)sausen.net)   

    

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 6:48 PM  

    

Subject: 51% Rule saga continues  

    

   

  

I do see a bit of irony that Van is a co chair of this committee and he is knowingly selling kits to people that violate the rule…..  

   

http://www.eaa.org/communications/eaanews/060914_rights.html  

   

Michael Sausen  

-10 #352 Fuselage  

Do not archive   	  Quote: 	
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      [quote][b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject: 51% Rule saga continues

Michael, I am trying to be REAL here, the problem is with the FAA who will certificate multiple builds of the exact same model aircraft to the same (slow learning / dim witted) OBAM aircraft owner.  The DARs are to blame, the system is flawed, the players know their respective roles and relish in the cash flow.  The DARs know who is producing multiple copies and they willingly submit the paperwork over and over. Then the FAA propagates the problem from OKC.  Their credentials should be pulled.  No one is pulling any wool over anyone’s eyes here. Why can’t Jesse provide the same service in Ecuador that Bonanza does in the Philippines?  The individuals who are whining the loudest are the kit manufacturers who think they are losing sales and market share to those kit builders who have a blind eye and tin ear. Remember we have more than 630 kits in the pipeline.  

   

How many RV-10s can I personally build for someone(s) before the system says ENOUGH.  2-4-6-8? I am hopeful a whole new cadre of professional build assist shops will arise from the rumble which require documented training of their workers, periodic documented assistance photos and a more stringent method for acquiring an Airworthiness Certificate. I would like to see a more educated build community. If every builder was doing as great a job as Tim Olson, who would complain… not me! The late Dave Lewis set the record with 37 RV builds.  VAN knew where the kits were shipped and who was the builder.  Dave, to his credit was involved in putting retractable gear in one.  His son, Dave Jr. was instrumental in demonstrating four ship formation flights to the NW airshow circuit (which by the way sold lots of kits) and created lots of builds for their operation.  

   

The worst thing to happen is more whining and no change.  That sounds like the FAA I served for 23 years. The next worst thing is stringent inspection procedures to physically document the renegade builders who flaunt the loophole and let it continue.  The unsuspecting builder with the phony repairman certificate beware.  The good news is VAN on the committee, Joe Bartel on the committee, Dave Saylor on the committee…. If only Rick Schrameck was on that committee I could say “Fair and Balanced”.  

   

Word from work is the FAA is now looking at the possibility of a whole new category of maintenance tech certificate called Composite Specialist.  That would weed out the A & Ps with Airframe tickets who could no more do a Hot build, ramp up prepregs with sophisticated matrix and epoxy bond over a double compound curve surface. Wow… x-ray certification too.  And no one is talking about the 51% spaceship being proto-typed at Composites Unlimited either.  Ever heard the phrase “the Skies are the Limit”.  Not Burt and Company.  

   

These are Interesting Times.  Build on and ignore the distant rumblings, its just another election year in DC. It will all be over soon.  

   

John Cox        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)

 Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 12:49 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: 51% Rule saga continues  

  

   

Let’s be real here.  Van knows EXACTLY who is building the -10 and other models for profit.    He’s not naïve to who is a repeat offend for profit only.  THAT is what I mean.  But like I said, VAN isn’t doing a darn thing wrong, he is just selling a bunch of parts to a consumer and there is no regulation that says he has to police the 51% rule.  If the person he sells it to decided to break the intent of the rule, that is their problem, not Van’s.  

   

Michael  

Do not archive  

   

      [quote][b]

like2loop(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject: 51% Rule saga continues

" I am trying to be REAL here, the problem is with the FAA who will certificate multiple builds of the exact same model aircraft to the same (slow learning / dim witted) OBAM aircraft owner.  The DARs are to blame, the system is flawed, "

    

      The real problem is people on this "Builders List" complaining about a non-building issue day after day and clogging my e-mail box full of their mistaken opinions!!!  We are not the FAA and can not change anything by e-mail.   Sorry for beating around the bush.

    

       If the "Professional Builder" is using his brain, he will NEVER buy the kit or register it in his own name.   I know a few guys that do this for a living for various different kits, and they prefer to think of themselves as "builder Assist programs", and usually have their client sign paperwork that states that they are assisting and not being contracted to do all the work in accorardance with the 51% rule.   The actual owner still needs to be present and do some work..... WHO CARES???   I could care less about who builds what, as long as the finished plane is airworthy and safe.  

    

         They (builder assistants) certainly in most cases will be much better then i am at building, you have to get better if you assist in the same project over and over.  For many builders this can be very good, as they may lack some abilities that i may have yet they have enough cash to pay someone to assit them.  Good for them!!!  That is a sign of financial success.  As for complaining about the "intent" of the rule, WHO cares?   As long as they are NOT violating the rule and building MY entire plane when i am not looking, it will never effect me.  I like building, some people don't, but yet they value the resulting plane.  I congratulate them for not stuping so low and buying a plane with dome rivets from Cessna and Piper.   Some of you even buy quick build kits... SO WHAT?   &nbsp  ;I plan to build mine myself and will not bother judging you for hiring Phillipinos to do your work... even though your cash is going off shore when there are Americans here that are willing to help you with your project!!!  How's that for a spin on the situation???

    

      Please stop clogging the list with NON building stuff that if it lands in the hands of the FAA can only serve to light a fire of some beaurocrat that is bored and may jeopardize all homebuilders if the FAA decides a policy re-write is needed.  I have never seen the FAA do anything helpful to me.  Please dont call the FAA and complain about any issue related to homebuilt builder assitance. I would suggest you build more and type less. 

    

   Repectfully - Steve

    

   Port St. Lucie, FL

   RV-10 Builder  #40499  Finishing the Elevators.... 

    Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. 

    [quote][b]

deruiteraircraftservices(
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:58 am Post subject: 51% Rule saga continues

Hi All,

  

 Van's will never break the 51% law by selling  a kit. It is the person who actually registers the project who  does.

  

 Spend time building.

  

 do not archive

   [quote][b]

Dave(at)AirCraftersLLC.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:44 am Post subject: 51% Rule saga continues

John,

  

 >>If only Rick Schrameck  was on that committee I could say “Fair and Balanced”. <<

  

 Rick is on the committee,  along with those you mentioned (thanks)  and:

  

  

 

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =  "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />Frank Paskiewicz, FAA Production and Airworthiness  Division, AIR-200  

Earl Lawrence,  Experimental Aircraft Association  

Kim Barnette, FAA  Flight Standards Service, AFS-300 

 

Mike Brown, FAA Flight Standards Service,  AFS-800  

Stephen Buczynski,  FAA Aircraft Certification, Van Nuys MIDO  

Paul Fiduccia, Small  Aircraft Manufacturers Association (SAMA)  

Joe Gauthier,  Manufacturing DAR  

Paul Greer,  Airworthiness Law Branch, AGC-210   

Donald Lausman, FAA  Airworthiness Certification Branch, AIR-230  

 

Matt Tomsheck, FAA Aircraft Certification, Cleveland  MIDO  

Mikael Via,  Glasair  

Brian Whitehead,  Transport Canada Civil Aviation  

Jeremy Monnett, Sonex    

  

It's as good a representation as I could ask  for. 

  Dave Saylor

 AirCrafters LLC

 140 Aviation Way

 Watsonville, CA 

 831-722-9141

 www.AirCraftersLLC.com



     [quote][b]

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