 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
GenGrumpy(at)aol.com
Guest
|
 Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:35 pm Post subject: Tony's Overhead Console Vent Inlet |
 |
|
To the -10 net on the overhead console:
I bought one of Tony's overhead consoles and have installed it in N184JM already.
I am pleased with the console, and it goes in nicely if you pop rivet it into the cabin top and then use simple silicone caulk to fill in the gaps.
However, there is a potential problem we need to address (and shame on me for not thinking of it ahead of time).
It has to do with placement of the air inlet scoop versus the exhaust swirl caused by prop flow coupled with the aerodynamics of the bird.
The concern is that if we are not careful in placement of the inleet scoop to feed the tubes and console, that we will bring exhaust gases (and carbon monoxide) into the cabin through the console.
At present, I have Tony's first production scoop that mounts directly in front of the vertical tail.
There is significant concern that prop and exhaust swirl will suck CO into the cabin with this placement. Van's has no data to support or disapprove of such a cabin air inlet mounting.
I am looking at alternative placement of either Tony's scoop or installation of a NACA scoop elsewhere on the aft fuselage to supply the air.
However, thus far we (I have a couple of aero engineers helping me) have not been able to find any definitivie studies on this issue from either the academic or corporate (Van's, Piper, etc) flight test world that shows what the exhaust swirl actually looks like.
If I cannot find any definitive studies, then I will flight test a NACA vent on the fuselage to see what CO it draws into the console/cockpit.
However, that probably won't happen till late Aug or mid Sep due to other circumstances getting my bird into the air.
If anyone on the net has one of Tony's consoles and can test an inlet location for CO prior to that, please let me know and I'll give you my best guess where to mount your scoop should you decide not to use Tony's scoop and its mounting location.
grumpy
#40404.....soon to fly!
In a message dated 7/14/2006 12:48:12 PM Central Standard Time, CJohnston(at)popsound.com writes:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston(at)popsound.com>
Does Tony Sustare have a website or contact info?
cj
#40410
fuse
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:49 pm Post subject: Tony's Overhead Console Vent Inlet |
|
|
All later model Mooneys have their fresh air inlets in front of the base of the vertical stabilizer.
GenGrumpy(at)aol.com (GenGrumpy(at)aol.com) wrote: [quote] To the -10 net on the overhead console:
I bought one of Tony's overhead consoles and have installed it in N184JM already.
I am pleased with the console, and it goes in nicely if you pop rivet it into the cabin top and then use simple silicone caulk to fill in the gaps.
However, there is a potential problem we need to address (and shame on me for not thinking of it ahead of time).
It has to do with placement of the air inlet scoop versus the exhaust swirl caused by prop flow coupled with the aerodynamics of the bird.
The concern is that if we are not careful in placement of the inleet scoop to feed the tubes and console, that we will bring exhaust gases (and carbon monoxide) into the cabin through the console.
At present, I have Tony's first production scoop that mounts directly in front of the vertical tail.
There is significant concern that prop and exhaust swirl will suck CO into the cabin with this placement. Van's has no data to support or disapprove of such a cabin air inlet mounting.
I am looking at alternative placement of either Tony's scoop or installation of a NACA scoop elsewhere on the aft fuselage to supply the air.
However, thus far we (I have a couple of aero engineers helping me) have not been able to find any definitivie studies on this issue from either the academic or corporate (Van's, Piper, etc) flight test world that shows what the exhaust swirl actually looks like.
If I cannot find any definitive studies, then I will flight test a NACA vent on the fuselage to see what CO it draws into the console/cockpit.
However, that probably won't happen till late Aug or mid Sep due to other circumstances getting my bird into the air.
If anyone on the net has one of Tony's consoles and can test an inlet location for CO prior to that, please let me know and I'll give you my best guess where to mount your scoop should you decide not to use Tony's scoop and its mounting location.
grumpy
#40404.....soon to fly!
In a message dated 7/14/2006 12:48:12 PM Central Standard Time, CJohnston(at)popsound.com (CJohnston(at)popsound.com) writes:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston(at)popsound.com> (CJohnston(at)popsound.com)
Does Tony Sustare have a website or contact info?
cj
#40410
fuse
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:02 pm Post subject: Tony's Overhead Console Vent Inlet |
|
|
One only needs to look at the Beechcraft airframe to get an idea of
where they introduced an aft placed induction cowl on the
Vertical/Empennage for conditioned air. On the VANS aircraft the
question is which of the two sides of the Vertical is the more
predominate HIGH pressure. It can change with both airspeed and/or
power setting. The rudder tab placed on N410RV is on the opposite side
of the identical rudder surface of N220RV because the Continental
provides less helical (corkscrew) airflow over the entire airframe than
the Lycoming IO-540. N410RV has much more rudder authority. I have posed
that observation to this group before without response or consideration.
Ken Krueger can help with his airflow calculations of the low pressure
areas and those high pressure areas from the calculation of where the
neutral density point was for placement of the static port.
As a personal offering and no personal affront to Ed. Most of my
efforts will be towards reducing drag and I will not be considering such
an inlet when I incorporate the well executed overhead air plenum. Tony
should have known better from the alternative conditioned air ducts on
the many Lancairs he is familiar with. NACA for me.
Carbon monoxide is far more of a concern with an exhaust muff heat
capture device.
John $00.02
Do not Archive
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:20 am Post subject: Tony's Overhead Console Vent Inlet |
|
|
You can see on this photo where Beech placed it on my old plane,
on the forward strake of the Vertical stab:
http://www.redcedarlake.net/sundowner/pics/midsize/N2251L0003.jpg
I don't know where to fall on John and John's points though.
On one hand, sure, CO could be an issue. But, we're experimental
and that to me means we need to experiment. Nobody will know for
sure until a test flight is made. Personally, I doubt CO will
be an issue with the tail scoop, but I also often have my CO
meter in my plane even without such a scoop.
As for the rudder trim difference between the 2 planes, I don't
know if I buy it or not. Sure, the theory could be right, but
my plane was pretty straight and true without wheel fairings.
Add those and not have them perfect and now it isn't as straight
a flyer. I would believe that the difference in rudder trim block
could very easily be due to differences in the build qualities of
the gear leg and wheel fairings. I personally would guess that
without the wheel fairings, both of them would have at least
a rudder block on the same side....but again, we're experimental,
and without us actually taking these parts off those 2 planes and
comparing, the world will never know for sure...so the point is
kind of moot. That's why I never really considered it much...it
just doesn't make much difference to anything.
As for scoop style and placement, it's possible to be the same
thing. The more proven way would be to use the NACA, as John
suggests. But, if the first builder to use the new style
puts it on, and in turn finds out it works great, then I'd
see no reason to fault it. Having the nozzle sticking out
as it does, may keep it in more fast moving air away from the
boundry layer if one exists there, so it is possible that it
will work fine. Remember that the air filter inlet on the
front cowl is directly behind the swirling prop, yet it works
fine. An RV-6/10 builder told me a couple days ago that
he actually sees a RAM air effect on his 6 of about 1" at
high speed. So, there is still a fair possibility that
the tail nozzle will work. But, we're experimental, and
we're experimenting. The best thing about the design is
that it's built in to the tail intersection fairing, so it
will be a "disposable" design. You could always buy a new
fairing and start over.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John W. Cox wrote:
[quote]
One only needs to look at the Beechcraft airframe to get an idea of
where they introduced an aft placed induction cowl on the
Vertical/Empennage for conditioned air. On the VANS aircraft the
question is which of the two sides of the Vertical is the more
predominate HIGH pressure. It can change with both airspeed and/or
power setting. The rudder tab placed on N410RV is on the opposite side
of the identical rudder surface of N220RV because the Continental
provides less helical (corkscrew) airflow over the entire airframe than
the Lycoming IO-540. N410RV has much more rudder authority. I have posed
that observation to this group before without response or consideration.
Ken Krueger can help with his airflow calculations of the low pressure
areas and those high pressure areas from the calculation of where the
neutral density point was for placement of the static port.
As a personal offering and no personal affront to Ed. Most of my
efforts will be towards reducing drag and I will not be considering such
an inlet when I incorporate the well executed overhead air plenum. Tony
should have known better from the alternative conditioned air ducts on
the many Lancairs he is familiar with. NACA for me.
Carbon monoxide is far more of a concern with an exhaust muff heat
capture device.
John $00.02
Do not Archive
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wayne.e(at)grandecom.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:23 am Post subject: Tony's Overhead Console Vent Inlet |
|
|
Hello grumpy,
I also have Tony's overhead console installed. My install didn't go quite as easy as it sounds like your did because the plane the mold was made from appeared to have had quite a bit of sanding work done on the canopy before the mold was made, so we had to modify it somewhat to get it to fit. I like the console and I'm not sorry I got it, but we couldn't just stick it on and go. I'm still working on sealing the back area that should abut to the baggage compartment bulkhead.
I've owned a Bonanza and a Baron and they both had air inlets around the area where Tony has his, based on the pictures, I haven't received anything yet, except that Beech has theirs on the side of the fairing. On the Bonanza I never had any problem of exhaust coming into the cabin. It would be more closely related to the 10 in that the Baron's engines obviously wouldn't be inline with the VS.
I've attached a photo of the Bonanza placement of their air inlet. Are you thinking that the exhaust will come under the plane and then swirl up around the VS area? I'm not an engineer by any stretch of the imagination, so I'm not questioning your concern, but it seems like the exhaust would travel down and back, not down and up over the VS ??
Wayne Edgerton #40336
Engine baffling
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
| Description: |
|
| Filesize: |
15.44 KB |
| Viewed: |
158 Time(s) |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:05 am Post subject: Tony's Overhead Console Vent Inlet |
|
|
We've done significant still frame tufting tests on the Nanchang CJ-6A
running an M-14P radial (360 hp with an MT 3 blade). To test our cowl
modification concept - POC. It won't be making OSH till next year -
Sorry. I am still waiting for Randy to say he is game with his RV-10.
Every airframe and powerplant creates a different flow pattern. Takes
about 6 hours of installation of tufts (best done the night before over
a couple of brewskis, an hour of extensive formation flight (calmest
winds within 2 hours of sunrise),with a qualified cameraman and a lot of
visual questioning of the final pictures. Boy, are digital cameras
great.
Basic rules are the high pressure areas are more pronounced in their
flow direction. The low pressure areas are less predictable as to
separation points (which change with pitch and bank attitude). The
dormant areas are always a total surprise and are airframe specific.
Yes there was a slight curl corkscrew wise around the airframe with a
rate which changes with the introduction of the wing lift change. We
did 10 degrees through 45.
On the Nanchang, the loss of lift forward of the wing root and on the
sides of the cowl forward of the cockpit were a total surprise. The
tufts actually tied themselves in knots. Others, the yarns were totally
shredded. Result, we are going with wing fairing mods like on the Legacy
2000.
Using CosmosFloWorks with Solidworks it can be computer tested but I
wouldn't trust anything short of visual capture on N610RV actually
flying. Oh Yeh, VANS switched from Autocad to Solidworks for the RV-12
last year. Ken K. (not S.) could chime in on this but I believe the
company policy is silence. Like Tim said, It's experimental.... do the
experiments - take the risk - reap the reward.
The snorkel concept has been used on air-conditioning ductwork. 4 - 7
knot loss over NACA. I won't be going there but good luck.
John - KUAO
Do not Archive
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
toaster73(at)earthlink.ne
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:55 pm Post subject: Tony's Overhead Console Vent Inlet |
|
|
Look at the scoop on this Bo, if you have ever seen the retractable scoops on the early Bonanza's thats what I am going to look into doing. It is on the center of the roof just aft or near the grab handle which is on the right upper side of the fuselage. I am thing of a retractable scoop just behind the lid...we'll see. Experimental and all.
http://www.beechcraft.org/vtail/p436jb/
http://www.beechcraft.org/vtail/p774S/
Chris Lucas
#40072
[quote] ---
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KiloPapa
Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Pearblossom, CA
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:23 pm Post subject: Tony's Overhead Console Vent Inlet |
|
|
John,
What area on the plane are you looking at for the NACA duct?
Kevin
40494
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
_________________
Kevin
40494
do not archive |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:54 pm Post subject: Tony's Overhead Console Vent Inlet |
|
|
On a NON-Vans modified Empennage to Vertical/Horizontal fairing. If
necessary, will have a DER determine move to the vertical with necessary
reinforcement and running of airflow through a composite 180 degree duct
down through the lightening hole and then back forward onto the aft
baggage bulkhead for the conditioning/control plenum.
Fairings are getting lots of attention due to drag and QOW on the
composite parts.
John
40600
--
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
