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A-65 rebuild
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oldernut

Joined: 28 Jan 2011
Posts: 46
Location: Hendersonville NC

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:45 am Post subject: A-65 rebuild

I am about to start a rebuild of an A-65 for an experimental airplane. I  have the manual but need extra help. Is there anybody out there in Continental  land.

  

     Dave

 [quote][b]

oldernut

Joined: 28 Jan 2011
Posts: 46
Location: Hendersonville NC

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:01 am Post subject: A-65 rebuild

Maybe we can help each other. Who knows, maybe others will become  interested. Are you going to use your engine in an experimental?

  

     Dave

 [quote][b]

Tommy Walker

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Anniston, AL 36207

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:19 am Post subject: Re: A-65 rebuild

my replies aren't getting posted to Matronics, so here's what I wrote:



Hi Dave,



I have a very limited background working on engines and such as a young man.  On Ebay, you can find a Continental Overhaul Manual for your engine.  The last one I saw went for about $20.00.  You can also get everything about the engine on one CD for a couple of dollars on EBay.  It has the manual, Service Bulletins, ADs, etc.   It pretty much has everything you need to know to tear down, inspect and rebuild your engine.  We took ours apart and sent the case, crank and cam to Aircraft Specialties Services in Tulsa (www.aircraft-specialties.com) for inspection.  I'm supposed to take the cylinders to a place in Newnan, GA next week.  The problem I've had so far is how to properly disassemble the engine.  I have a friend who has lots of experience rebuilding a/c engines and he gave me a lot of valuable pointers, plus advice on what to have checked and who to send it to.  I'm sure when it comes time to put everything back together, my friend is going to save me from a major catastrophe.  



We plan to put the engine in a Kitfox Super Sport.  I'm also working on getting it ready to do the first mount of the wings, plus looking for a new hangar since our home airport closed last summer.  I'm building the plane in my garage, but when we start putting the wings on, I'm going to have to put it in a hangar somewhere.  I live in Anniston, AL.  



Here's a link to our website.  You can see pictures of the disassembly under the Engine tab.  http://www.rickscafe.us .  Click on the Southern Aircraft Works link.

_________________
Tommy Walker
N25A - Anniston, AL

Tommy Walker

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Anniston, AL 36207

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:23 am Post subject: A-65 rebuild

deleted by twalker

_________________
Tommy Walker
N25A - Anniston, AL

Last edited by Tommy Walker on Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:45 am; edited 1 time in total

n4546v(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:38 am Post subject: A-65 rebuild

There is probably plenty of help when you are ready  for it, but please don't ask something like:

  

 "Please send me everything you know about  rebuilding small Continentals".

  

 No one has time to write novels.

  

 If you ask one or two questions at a time, you will  probably get plenty of answers and advice.

  

 Two weeks ago, we had engine start of a very  thorough OH of a O-200 we did for our first issue C-150.  Everything good  so far.

  

 Go slow, be thorough and methodical and don't do  anything that you wouldn't want to explain to a IA.

  

 I'll ask the first question of Dave &  Tommy:

  

 What cylinders do you intend to use?  Rebuild  yours, of buy new?

  

 Regards,

  

 Randy, Las vegas

 [quote]   ---

n4546v(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:41 am Post subject: A-65 rebuild

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <twalker(at)cableone.net>



 my replies aren't getting posted to Matronics, so here's what I wrote:


	




What do you mean Tommy, this is Matronics and they are coming through?



Randy, Las Vegas



do not archive

Tommy Walker

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Anniston, AL 36207

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:50 am Post subject: Re: A-65 rebuild

Hi Randy,



I think I remember you from the Zenith list.  Right?



I now see that my post got posted twice.  I sent it via email and when I checked it hadn't been added so I copied it and pasted.  Just deleted the first reply.



Cylinders....



We hope to use our cylinders.  It all depends on how the inspection goes.  If I could find a good deal on cylinders like I did on new ones from TCM a few years ago, I would go for it.  But if these check out we will use them.  They are steel cylinders with no oversize.  The engine had 240 hrs SMOH when it had a prop strike.  We are waiting to hear about Crank and case....

_________________
Tommy Walker
N25A - Anniston, AL

oldernut

Joined: 28 Jan 2011
Posts: 46
Location: Hendersonville NC

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:12 am Post subject: A-65 rebuild

I would also like to use the cyls I have. I bought 3 A-65's with the idea  of building one good engine. I realize some things will have to be rebuilt or  replaced. Have one engine torn down and have some good pieces. It was an a-75  with the waffle pistons. I have one set of working Bendix SF4 Mags And a  completely rebuilt Stromberg carb. One engine has a couple chrome cyl's on  it. 

  I have to Mic the inside of the cyl's and see what I have. If over  Standard bore, I can bore out the cyl's out .015. New pistons and rings  required. Parts for that about $500????? I don't have any idea what the bore job  would cost.

  

  

     Dave 

 [quote][b]

pietflyr(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:46 am Post subject: A-65 rebuild

Where are you?  

   

Jack  Phillips  

Raleigh, NC  

         

  

From: owner-continental-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-continental-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of SENTUCHOWS(at)aol.com

 Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 10:42 AM

 To: continental-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: A-65 rebuild  

  

     

I am about to start a rebuild of an A-65 for an experimental airplane. I have the manual but need extra help. Is there anybody out there in Continental land.  

    

   

    

    Dave  

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oldernut

Joined: 28 Jan 2011
Posts: 46
Location: Hendersonville NC

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:50 am Post subject: A-65 rebuild

Hendersonville NC.

  

     Dave

 [quote][b]

dsleepy47

Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 41

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:36 pm Post subject: A-65 rebuild

If you are looking for information this: http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/fenton.htm is a good place to spend a few hours. It will answer many of the questions about small Continentals. After that if you have any specific questions I'll see what I can do.



Deems Herring A&P, IA, O-200 owner



 		 	   		    [quote][b]

_________________
dsleepy47
N1491R

n4546v(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:57 pm Post subject: A-65 rebuild

Hello Tommy:



Yes, I am on most of the ZA lists.  We have corresponded before.



The following contains many facts and a lot of my opinions.  It is worth 

exactly what you are paying for it.



If you have a O-200 that is used in a certified aircraft, with original 

Continental cylinders identified by casting numbers, they are subject to 

cylinder head cracking.



O-200's specs call for ignition timing of 28 degrees BTDC and a redline of 

2800 rpm.  Because of the head cracking problem, there is a three decades 

old AD that requires the timing to be retarded to 24 degrees BTDC.  This 

decreases horsepower in an effort to alleviate the cylinder head cracking.



Is this cracking a result of cylinder head design geometery or the fact that 

these cylinders were designed to run on 80 octane fuel which is no longer 

available?  I can't answer that.  I do know that the cylinder head cracking 

is real and does occur often.



These same cylinders are used on most the small Continental 4 cylinder 

engines as well as the C-145/O-300 six cylinder engines.  As the O-200 is 

the only one that has the 2800 RPM redline, this AD doesn't apply to the 

other engines as they don't turn as fast.  Does that mean turning at a lower 

RPM won't cause head cracking?  That has not been my experience.



Two years ago, we overhauled a C-145 six cylinder for our flying club 1958 

C-172.  The removed cylinders, along with several cylinders offered to us 

for sale "for rebuild" in total, eleven had cracked cylinder heads.



These can all be rebuilt, the heads welded etc. but what do you have then? 

Regardless of rebuild, they are still subjec to the AD in a O-200.



How long will they last?



Our decision was to buy modern designed ECI cylinders whch are engineered to 

run on 100 octane avgas.



In experimental use, you don not have to comply with this AD, but does that 

make any difference in reliability?



Continental now produces a newer design cylinder that relieves one from the 

AD for the O-200.  I have been told, that the ECI cylinders have valve 

rotators installed and the Continental cylinders do not.  I don't know if 

that is true.



Again, this AD does not apply to other engines like the A-65.



The decision then, is how does the cylinder rebuild price, of the older 

design, compare with buying new design cylinders?



Our decision was based on two things:



1.  To buy a cylinder of a newer design to avoid head cracking, and 

eliminate the AD to allow a full 100 HP.



2.  To buy a cylinder designed to use 100 octane avgas.



There's some info. I'm sure other experienced people will comment.



Regards,



Randy L. Thwing, Las Vegas

---

Tommy Walker

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Anniston, AL 36207

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:26 am Post subject: Re: A-65 rebuild

Randy, thanks for the valuable information.  



However, I just got hit with some bad news this morning.  The flange on my  O200 crank is cracked and not repairable.  So, it is back to square one for me.  I hate to throw away my investment in this engine, so I am searching for a replacement. 



Anyone have a lead on a crank?



Thanks,



Tommy Walker in Alabama

_________________
Tommy Walker
N25A - Anniston, AL

Tommy Walker

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Anniston, AL 36207

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:27 am Post subject: Re: A-65 rebuild

There's lots of valuable info there Deems, thanks for the link.  See my post above if you have any leads.



Tommy Walker in Alabama



[quote="dsleepy47"]If you are looking for information this: http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/fenton.htm is a good place to spend a few hours. It will answer many of the questions about small Continentals. After that if you have any specific questions I'll see what I can do.



Deems Herring A&P, IA, O-200 owner



 		 	   		     	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

_________________
Tommy Walker
N25A - Anniston, AL

n4546v(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:13 am Post subject: A-65 rebuild

do not archive



Tommy:



I'm sure the news about it being "unrepairable" is for Certified use.  For 

experimental use, you could repair in any manner.  Now, I'm not saying to be 

slipshod and unsafe, but put out the word of what the damage is and seek 

help.  Go to your local race engine shop for opinions.  There may be a very 

safe way to reapir this, just not FAA approved.



But that's one very good reason to go experimental, to get OUT of the 

certified business.



OK the flange is cracked, how's the rest of it?  Journal conditions, 

straightness?



Good Luck,



Randy, Las Vegas





---

MONTY(at)bpaengines.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:41 pm Post subject: A-65 rebuild

Hey, Man,

A cracked flange is a serious defect.  I wouldn't mess with it 1/2

second.  Fixing something in a race car shop is a whole bunch different

than fixing something for an aircraft.  3 or 4 reasons readily come to

mind. 1.  Race car can just pull into the pits.  2.  The materials may

be and probably are different.  The 0-200 crankshaft is forged from AISI

4340, not the best welding material in the world.  Too much carbon in

the base metal and it's nitrided.  3.  Do you have any idea what happens

with control issues introduced when you sling a prop off ?  4.  How much

is your safety worth ?



A serviceable tagged crankshaft from a reputable shop would probably

cost $2100 or so.  



Monty Barrett

Barrett Precision Engines, Inc.

Over 40 years in the aircraft engine business.



--

n4546v(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:22 pm Post subject: A-65 rebuild

Good Stuff Monty:



Is or was (say post ww2) there any small certified engine crank (horizontal 

opposed) that was manufactured with the prop flange welded to the crank?



Regards,



Randy, Las Vegas



---

Tommy Walker

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Anniston, AL 36207

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:34 pm Post subject: A-65 rebuild

I would probably pay $2100.00 for a certified crank.  I was quoted 2814.00 for a new one today.  That's not bad (relative term) either.



You got one Monty?

Tommy

 On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 2:47 PM, Monty Barrett Sr <MONTY(at)bpaengines.com (MONTY(at)bpaengines.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Continental-List message posted by: "Monty Barrett Sr" <MONTY(at)bpaengines.com (MONTY(at)bpaengines.com)>

   

 Hey, Man,

 A cracked flange is a serious defect.  I wouldn't mess with it 1/2

 second.  Fixing something in a race car shop is a whole bunch different

 than fixing something for an aircraft.  3 or 4 reasons readily come to

 mind. 1.  Race car can just pull into the pits.  2.  The materials may

 be and probably are different.  The 0-200 crankshaft is forged from AISI

 4340, not the best welding material in the world.  Too much carbon in

 the base metal and it's nitrided.  3.  Do you have any idea what happens

 with control issues introduced when you sling a prop off ?  4.  How much

 is your safety worth ?

 

 A serviceable tagged crankshaft from a reputable shop would probably

 cost $2100 or so.

 

 Monty Barrett

 Barrett Precision Engines, Inc.

 Over 40 years in the aircraft engine business.

 

 --

_________________
Tommy Walker
N25A - Anniston, AL

dsleepy47

Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 41

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:19 pm Post subject: A-65 rebuild

Tommy, did I miss something? are you rebuilding an A-65 or an O-200?

  

 The problem with the original cylinders is the threads where the liner threads into the head. If you didn't know the steel liners are threaded at the top and they screw into the aluminum heads. the way the threads are made in the aluminum of the old style cylinders creates a stress concentration point and the cylinders crack at the end of the threads and it is possible for the head to separate from the rest of the cylinder. The newer style cylinders have a different thread design. This is different from the cracking in the area of the valves which all small continentals are susceptible too and which can be repaired but do not expect repaired heads to last as long as they did before the repair. I would not consider head repairs on cylinders you do not have a 100% accurate history on. Here are some pictures of the kind of cracks that lead to separation: http://www.sacskyranch.com/eng82.htm and here is another place with good information on the O-200.

  

 Deems



 

 > From: n4546v(at)mindspring.com

[quote] To: continental-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: A-65 rebuild

 Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 19:53:52 -0800

 

 --> Continental-List message posted by: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v(at)mindspring.com>

 

 Hello Tommy:

 

 Yes, I am on most of the ZA lists. We have corresponded before.

 

 The following contains many facts and a lot of my opinions. It is worth 

 exactly what you are paying for it.

 

 If you have a O-200 that is used in a certified aircraft, with original 

 Continental cylinders identified by casting numbers, they are subject to 

 cylinder head cracking.

 		 	   		     	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

_________________
dsleepy47
N1491R

n4546v(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:08 pm Post subject: A-65 rebuild

do not archive



Hello Tommy:



If you are shopping for a used crankshaft for a O-200 here a a few 

considerations:



Continental allows overhauls to occur with crankshafts with standard 

diameter journals and with journals ground .010" undersize.



If it doesn't meet one of those specs, Continental expects you to buy a new 

crankshaft.



There is a STC available through the crank grinding shops that allow a O-200 

crank to be ground .020" undersize.  This saves a crank, but the bearings 

necessary to use a .020" under crank cost about twice or more as much as the 

standard or .010 under bearings.



I don't have current pricing, but if standard bearings cost 230.00 (mains & 

rods), .020" under bearings may cost 450.00 or more.  Don't quote me, get 

current pricing.



Just more infomation to help in your decision if you are offered a used 

crankshaft.



Regards,



Randy, Las Vegas



---

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