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Autogas for 540
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dmasys(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:19 am Post subject: Autogas for 540

100LL hit a psychological threshhold at my home airport (JWN) this week.  It is now at $5 per gallon.  This got me thinking again about an autogas STC.  Had one for my C-182 and flew it happily for 1100 hours on autogas, saving more than $10K at 13.5 gal/hr over five years.



Petersen lists autogas STCs for the following variants of the O-540, with those having an asterisk needing 91 octane and all others ok on 87 octane:

0-540-B1A5, -B1B5, -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5, -A1A*, -A1A5*, -A1B5*,

-A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*, -A4A5*, -A4B5*, -A4C5*, -A4D5*, -D1A5*,

-E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*, -G2A5*, -H1A5*, -H2A5*, -H1A5D*, -H2A5D*, -H1B5D*, -H2B5D* -F1B5*



I was going to go with an IO-540 but it might be worth going back to a carburator to have a plane that is not hostage to the economics of greed, where every time autogas goes up 20 cents a gallon, avgas goes up a dollar.



Anyone else planning to run autogas in their Lycosaur?  



-Dan Masys

#40448

GRANSCOTT(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: Autogas for 540

Dan did you read this month's 100LL article in AvConsumer?

  

 Interesting reading...

  

 Patrick Scott

  

 do not archive

Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:38 am Post subject: Autogas for 540

Well, with injection you can lean that sucker out much more than with a

carb.  It would be interesting to run the numbers comparing that

situation . . .



TDT

40025



--

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:45 am Post subject: Autogas for 540

I get to fly behind the IO 540 in a C 182 going slowly and using a good  engine monitor G-1000 the best I can do is 9 gallons per hour doing  105kts..I know the frame of the RV 10 is better suited but are they're any  STC for fuel injected 540's?  If you're considering going the auto fuel  route make sure all the parts between the tank and engine will not react with  the added materials in auto gas...alcohol's and dispersant's...

  

 Patrick

  

 do not archive

tie-norman(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:53 am Post subject: Autogas for 540

It is my understanding that these STCs were intended to use alcohol free

fuel (i.e. no methanol or ethanol).  This may be an issue since MTBE is

being phased out and replaced with ethanol.



http://www.eaa.org/education/fuel/knopp_alcohol.html



Tommy



--

cehoffman(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:49 am Post subject: Autogas for 540

My experience with the O-540 has been that the 235 hp versions run well on

auto fuel, but the 250hp and 260 hp versions tend to ping.



Cal

---

bsponcil(at)belinblank.or
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:05 am Post subject: Autogas for 540

I'm thinking it as well.  Keep in mind however, that the choice in engine 

isn't the only factor in safely running auto-gas.  For instance, the 

Cherokee 235 with the 0-540-B4B5 has the autogas STC whereas an Apache 

running the very same engines does not.  The same can be said for the 

mooneys and comanches.  Pull the engines out of those planes and put them 

into a cherokee 180 and you go from no autogas to autogas approved.



According to Petersen, the tighter the cowl and the higher the performance, 

the harder it was to pass their tests. I guess in the case of the mooneys 

and comanches, they had problems with the fuel boiling in the carb.  If I 

remember correctly, one of the tests was to heat the fuel tanks (seems sort 

of dangerous) to 110 degrees and then do a MaxPerformance climb all the way 

to 12,500.  Any hiccups in performance (loss of power, fuel pressure, etc) 

and it failed the test.



Does that mean if you fly conservatively, ie - don't do maximum performance 

climbs to 12,500, you won't have problems? I don't know.  I think auto-gas 

is a possibility in the RV-10s, but someone is going to have to be the beta 

tester 



-Brian



#40497

N211BD

Iowa City, IA



---

rnewman(at)lutron.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:34 am Post subject: Autogas for 540

Part of my plan is flexibility in choices,  I'm using an O-540-E4B5 in

RV-10.    



-Bob Newman



 	  Quote: 	
		  >> dmasys(at)cox.net 4/27/2006 12:18:42 PM >>>

	




100LL hit a psychological threshhold at my home airport (JWN) this

week.  It is now at $5 per gallon.  This got me thinking again about an

autogas STC.  Had one for my C-182 and flew it happily for 1100 hours on

autogas, saving more than $10K at 13.5 gal/hr over five years.



Petersen lists autogas STCs for the following variants of the O-540,

with those having an asterisk needing 91 octane and all others ok on 87

octane:

0-540-B1A5, -B1B5, -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5, -A1A*,

-A1A5*, -A1B5*,

-A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*, -A4A5*, -A4B5*, -A4C5*, -A4D5*,

-D1A5*,

-E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*, -G2A5*, -H1A5*, -H2A5*, -H1A5D*,

-H2A5D*, -H1B5D*, -H2B5D* -F1B5*



I was going to go with an IO-540 but it might be worth going back to a

carburator to have a plane that is not hostage to the economics of

greed, where every time autogas goes up 20 cents a gallon, avgas goes up

a dollar.



Anyone else planning to run autogas in their Lycosaur?  



-Dan Masys

#40448

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:44 am Post subject: Autogas for 540

Maybe time to start really considering something other than a Lycosaur!



JG, #409



Do not archive

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Dan Masys <dmasys(at)cox.net>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Autogas for 540

Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 16:18:42 +0000






100LL hit a psychological threshhold at my home airport (JWN) this week.  

It is now at $5 per gallon.  This got me thinking again about an autogas 

STC.  Had one for my C-182 and flew it happily for 1100 hours on autogas, 

saving more than $10K at 13.5 gal/hr over five years.



Petersen lists autogas STCs for the following variants of the O-540, with 

those having an asterisk needing 91 octane and all others ok on 87 octane:

0-540-B1A5, -B1B5, -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5, -A1A*, -A1A5*, 

-A1B5*,

-A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*, -A4A5*, -A4B5*, -A4C5*, -A4D5*, 

-D1A5*,

-E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*, -G2A5*, -H1A5*, -H2A5*, -H1A5D*, -H2A5D*, 

-H1B5D*, -H2B5D* -F1B5*



I was going to go with an IO-540 but it might be worth going back to a 

carburator to have a plane that is not hostage to the economics of greed, 

where every time autogas goes up 20 cents a gallon, avgas goes up a dollar.



Anyone else planning to run autogas in their Lycosaur?



-Dan Masys

#40448

Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:52 am Post subject: Autogas for 540

We need to show these guys how big the homebuilt market is.  They've

been ignoring it in favor of the OEMs . . .



http://www.vaircraftengine.com/ 



http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=9f2a2c16-1451-479a-ad6

1-40eec3d4b353&Dynamic=1&Range=NOW&FromDate=04%2F24%2F2006&ToDate=04%2F2

7%2F2006&Category=%2Findex.cfm



 TDT

40025



--

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:11 am Post subject: Autogas for 540

Isn't this the Bombardier engine before they split off?

 

 

 Michael Sausen

 RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage

 Do Not Archive

 Recent RV-10 Build Activity

 

 

 --

Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:28 am Post subject: Autogas for 540

Correct-a-mundo.  

   

I remember seeing the V Engines at Oshkosh 2003.  And I thought avionics certification was slow and painful!  

   

TDT

 40025  

   

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)

 Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 3:10 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Autogas for 540  

  

   

Isn't this the Bombardier engine before they split off?

 

 

 Michael Sausen

 RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage

 Do Not Archive

 Recent RV-10 Build Activity

 

 

 --

rick.conti(at)boeing.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:47 am Post subject: Autogas for 540

I've never owned a plane with an auto-gas STC.  How do you refuel the

plane?  I wouldn't image the wings would fit under the canopy of an

Exxon station.



Thank You

Rick Conti

Senior Engineering Manager

The Boeing Company

          office: 703 - 414 - 6141

blackberry: 571 - 215 - 6134

--

n8vim(at)arrl.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:25 pm Post subject: Autogas for 540

You can use a pickup truck (remember those? They came before SUV's and 

are often seen free-range roaming around farms) with a fuel transfer 

tank in the back. Those tanks tend to hold a few hundred gallons.



You will have to swipe your credit card a few times to fill up though 

(the pumps here in town stop at $75, and you have to start over again).



Imagine, the luxury of your own fuel truck!



-Jim

do not archive the preceeding humor



Conti, Rick wrote:



[quote]



I've never owned a plane with an auto-gas STC.  How do you refuel the

plane?  I wouldn't image the wings would fit under the canopy of an

Exxon station.



Thank You

Rick Conti

Senior Engineering Manager

The Boeing Company

          office: 703 - 414 - 6141

blackberry: 571 - 215 - 6134

--

jjessen

Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject: Autogas for 540

Yep

  

 do not archive



   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder  (Michael Sausen)

Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:10 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Autogas for  540

 

 

Isn't this the Bombardier engine before they split  off?

Michael Sausen

RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage

Do Not  Archive

Recent RV-10 Build Activity

-----Original  Message-----

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)]  On Behalf Of Tim Dawson-Townsend

Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 1:51  PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Autogas for  540



--> RV10-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend"

-->  <Tdawson(at)Avidyne.com>



We need to show these guys how big the  homebuilt market is.  They've been ignoring it in favor of the OEMs . .  .



http://www.vaircraftengine.com/



http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=9f2a2c16-1451-479a-ad6

1-40eec3d4b353&Dynamic=1&Range=NOW&FromDate=04%2F24%2F2006&ToDate=04%2F2

7%2F2006&Category=%2Findex.cfm



 TDT

40025



-----Original  Message-----

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)]  On Behalf Of John Gonzalez

Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 2:44 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Autogas for 540



-->  RV10-List message posted by: "John  Gonzalez"

<indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com>



Maybe time to start really  considering something other than a Lycosaur!



JG, #409



Do not  archive

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Dan Masys <dmasys(at)cox.net>

Reply-To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject:  Autogas for 540

Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 16:18:42  +0000



--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Masys  <dmasys(at)cox.net>



100LL hit a psychological threshhold at my  home airport (JWN) this

week. 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  It is now at $5 per gallon.   This got me thinking again about an

autogas
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  STC.  Had one for my  C-182 and flew it happily for 1100 hours on

autogas,
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  saving more than  $10K at 13.5 gal/hr over five years.



Petersen lists autogas STCs  for the following variants of the O-540,

with
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  those having an asterisk  needing 91 octane and all others ok on 87

octane:
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  0-540-B1A5, -B1B5,  -B1D5, -B2A5, -B2B5, -B2C5, -B4A5, -B4B5,  -A1A*,

-A1A5*,
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  -A1B5*,

-A1C5*, -A1D*, -A1D5*, -A2B*, -A3D5*,  -A4A5*, -A4B5*, -A4C5*, -A4D5*,

-D1A5*, -E4A5*, -E4B5*, -E4C5*, -G1A5*,  -G2A5*, -H1A5*, -H2A5*,

-H1A5D*,

-H2A5D*,
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  -H1B5D*, -H2B5D*  -F1B5*



I was going to go with an IO-540 but it might be worth  going back to a

carburator to have a plane that is not hostage to the  economics of

greed,
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  where every time autogas goes up 20 cents a  gallon, avgas goes up a

dollar.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

Anyone else planning to run  autogas in their Lycosaur?



-Dan  Masys

#40448








	




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LIKE2LOOP(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject: Autogas for 540

In a message dated 4/27/06, rick.conti(at)boeing.com writes:

<< I've never owned a plane with an auto-gas STC.  How do you refuel the

plane?  >>



Rick,

      My C-170 has an STC for auto gas. We get it at a local grass strip, 

self-serve pumps,  Indiantown (X58).  The only Boeing's that land there seem to 

be 6 Stearmans based there!!!   Think general aviation.



Steve



Port St. Lucie, FL

772-475-5556



Sent from my Treo 600



do not archive

jjessen

Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject: Autogas for 540

Fellow 4 doors down from me with a couple Taylor Craft has a fuel tank on a

trailer.  Seems to work well for him.  Other than fuel in the hanger, always

a hazard, not sure what the drawback would be?   



--

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:47 pm Post subject: Autogas for 540

Unless you are attempting to keep the engine type certificated, STCs 

wouldn't matter. However, materials compatibility is likely to be a big 

issue. I know of a former Mooney owner who ran his O-360 on 91 octane 

mogas. The fuel attacked to the polysulfide (PRC) in the fuel tanks 

until it was a pink goo. I don't know if the polysulfides used today 

are more resistant than what Mooney used in the late '60s, but I'd be 

real concerned about affecting your tank sealant.

Certain low wing planes such as the Mooney were unable to get STCs 

because of vapor issues, while others like the Cherokees had to change 

fuel pumps.

Injection or carburetion makes little difference. Compression ratio is 

the issue, with 8.5 being about the limit for 91 octane, and probably 

8.0 for 87 octane.



Quoting GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I get to fly behind the IO 540 in a C 182 going slowly and using a good

 engine monitor G-1000 the best I can do is 9 gallons per hour doing  

 105kts..I

 know the frame of the RV 10 is better suited but are they're any  STC 

 for fuel

 injected 540's?  If you're considering going the auto fuel  route 

 make sure all

 the parts between the tank and engine will not react with  the added 

 materials

 in auto gas...alcohol's and dispersant's...



 Patrick



 do not archive

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

ericmpmail-rv10(at)yahoo.
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:44 pm Post subject: Autogas for 540

ECi Titan IO-540 kit engine (~ 2007?) is supposed to

be autofuel capable. This is partly because they are

using a fuel spider with fixed orifice and not a fuel

servo with some autogas sensitive components. Still

they rec 100LL initial for valves. Note this system

requires a return fuel line. I have built these

fittings into my tanks just in case. Part of reason

for return line is to return any vapor to tank.

Autogas and ethanol autogas in particular has lower

vapor pressure. Ethanol is also a good solvent for

lots of things....



Deltahawk claims they sold out 2005 and 2006

production runs but I have never seen a builder site

which makes me wonder if they really have that many

out there. I saw one article that 2005 run was only

two engines.



A number of builders are looking at rotary engines as

well.



Eric

GRANSCOTT(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:56 pm Post subject: Autogas for 540

In a message dated 4/27/06 5:52:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  ericmpmail-rv10(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Deltahawk claims they sold out 2005 and 2006

production runs but I    have never seen a builder site

which makes me wonder if they really have    that many

out there. 	


 

 I know the person that's #20 on the list has yet to smell diesel in the  morning...promised for over a year ago...hope they make it...

  

 P

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