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Cellphones in the air

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N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject: Cellphones in the air

I've tried to use my Verizon (CDMA) cellphone on several flights now, 

well within coverage areas, with good signal strength, from 3500 feet 

to as high as 8500 feet in line of sight and close to - or over - 

plenty of civilization.  It never works.



I'll have as many as 5 bars showing, but they are changing rapidly 

from no bars to 3 bars to 5 bars, dancing all around.



What happens is that I dial the number, it spends a few seconds 

longer than normal connecting, and then either connects for a split 

second, or doesn't connect at all, but in either case it pops up a 

message saying "Signal Lost" and disconnects.



Is anybody on this list able to reliably use a cellphone from in your airplane?



Thanks,

Dave Morris

1960 Mooney M20A

N6030X at 52F

ainut(at)hiwaay.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject: Cellphones in the air

That used to be illegal -- might still be.  Old cells would tie in with 

any tower they could see and from an airplane they could see a lot, 

causing jamming to the cell system.



David M.

Dave N6030X wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com>



 I've tried to use my Verizon (CDMA) cellphone on several flights now, 

 well within coverage areas, with good signal strength, from 3500 feet 

 to as high as 8500 feet in line of sight and close to - or over - 

 plenty of civilization.  It never works.



 I'll have as many as 5 bars showing, but they are changing rapidly 

 from no bars to 3 bars to 5 bars, dancing all around.



 What happens is that I dial the number, it spends a few seconds longer 

 than normal connecting, and then either connects for a split second, 

 or doesn't connect at all, but in either case it pops up a message 

 saying "Signal Lost" and disconnects.



 Is anybody on this list able to reliably use a cellphone from in your 

 airplane?



 Thanks,

 Dave Morris

 1960 Mooney M20A

 N6030X at 52F

sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:35 pm Post subject: Cellphones in the air

With analog phones, if you can still find one, it is illegal.  He

specified CMDA; the old rules seem not to apply to this service.  As

PIC, he certifies what is legal in his airplane as far as interference

risks to safety of flight.

My experience has been that down low, the reception is fine.  Up high,

it is as described - very frustrating.  Text messages still work when

voice won't, often.  Perhaps the downward tilt of the antenna lobes on

the cell towers.  It's been discussed in the archives, but I'll wait

to see if any new info surfaces this time around 

-Bill B

On 10/23/06, David M. <ainut(at)hiwaay.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 That used to be illegal -- might still be.  Old cells would tie in with

 any tower they could see and from an airplane they could see a lot,

 causing jamming to the cell system.

 David M.

 Dave N6030X wrote:

 > 

 > <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com>

 >

 > I've tried to use my Verizon (CDMA) cellphone on several flights now,

 > well within coverage areas, with good signal strength, from 3500 feet

 > to as high as 8500 feet in line of sight and close to - or over -

 > plenty of civilization.  It never works.

 >

 > I'll have as many as 5 bars showing, but they are changing rapidly

 > from no bars to 3 bars to 5 bars, dancing all around.

 >

 > What happens is that I dial the number, it spends a few seconds longer

 > than normal connecting, and then either connects for a split second,

 > or doesn't connect at all, but in either case it pops up a message

 > saying "Signal Lost" and disconnects.

 >

 > Is anybody on this list able to reliably use a cellphone from in your

 > airplane?

 >

 > Thanks,

 >

 >

 > Dave Morris

 > 1960 Mooney M20A

 > N6030X at 52F

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

LarryRosen

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 415
Location: Medford, NJ

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:05 am Post subject: Cellphones in the air

It is an FTC regulation that prohibits the use of cell phones in 

airplanes, not an FAA regulation.



Larry



Bill Boyd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>



 With analog phones, if you can still find one, it is illegal.  He

 specified CMDA; the old rules seem not to apply to this service.  As

 PIC, he certifies what is legal in his airplane as far as interference

 risks to safety of flight.



 My experience has been that down low, the reception is fine.  Up high,

 it is as described - very frustrating.  Text messages still work when

 voice won't, often.  Perhaps the downward tilt of the antenna lobes on

 the cell towers.  It's been discussed in the archives, but I'll wait

 to see if any new info surfaces this time around 



 -Bill B



 On 10/23/06, David M. <ainut(at)hiwaay.net> wrote:

> 

>

> That used to be illegal -- might still be.  Old cells would tie in with

> any tower they could see and from an airplane they could see a lot,

> causing jamming to the cell system.

>

> David M.

> Dave N6030X wrote:

>

> > 

> > <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com>

> >

> > I've tried to use my Verizon (CDMA) cellphone on several flights now,

> > well within coverage areas, with good signal strength, from 3500 feet

> > to as high as 8500 feet in line of sight and close to - or over -

> > plenty of civilization.  It never works.

> >

> > I'll have as many as 5 bars showing, but they are changing rapidly

> > from no bars to 3 bars to 5 bars, dancing all around.

> >

> > What happens is that I dial the number, it spends a few seconds longer

> > than normal connecting, and then either connects for a split second,

> > or doesn't connect at all, but in either case it pops up a message

> > saying "Signal Lost" and disconnects.

> >

> > Is anybody on this list able to reliably use a cellphone from in your

> > airplane?

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> >

> > Dave Morris

> > 1960 Mooney M20A

> > N6030X at 52F

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

_________________
Larry Rosen
#40356
N205EN (reserved)
<http>

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:16 am Post subject: Cellphones in the air

At 09:22 PM 10/23/2006 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



I've tried to use my Verizon (CDMA) cellphone on several flights now, well 

within coverage areas, with good signal strength, from 3500 feet to as 

high as 8500 feet in line of sight and close to - or over - plenty of 

civilization.  It never works.



I'll have as many as 5 bars showing, but they are changing rapidly from no 

bars to 3 bars to 5 bars, dancing all around.



What happens is that I dial the number, it spends a few seconds longer 

than normal connecting, and then either connects for a split second, or 

doesn't connect at all, but in either case it pops up a message saying 

"Signal Lost" and disconnects.



Is anybody on this list able to reliably use a cellphone from in your 

airplane?


	


  The old "cell" phone technology used some site-selection

  philosophies based on signal strength. It was assumed that

  when a phone was in use, it would be in range of perhaps

  a half-dozen adjacent antenna sites and they would talk

  amongst themselves to decide who would service the call

  and which adjacent cell would take over if the phone was

  moving.



  Accessing these systems from the air might cause dozens

  of sites to get pinged and the site swap algorithm would

  get overloaded.



  The digital systems are much more agile. I suspect that

  when your phone requests service now, the system deduces

  when you're airborne and simply locks you out. I've

  tried several brands of mobile phones from inside airplanes

  at all altitudes with very mixed results  . . . mostly

  poor.



  If 9-11 happened today, it's much less likely that folks

  within a hijacked aircraft would be able to establish

  useful communications with the ground via hand-held

  phones.



  Bob  . . .

sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:29 am Post subject: Cellphones in the air

It's my understanding that CDMA devices are not prohibited from such

use, but that's from prior discussions here years back.  Do you have

"chapter and verse" to share with us?  I for one would like to stay

current on this topic, as I do use my cell phone aloft from time to

time (and as I said, down low, below 2000AGL, usually with success.)



-BB



On 10/24/06, Larry Rosen <LarryRosen(at)comcast.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 It is an FTC regulation that prohibits the use of cell phones in

 airplanes, not an FAA regulation.



 Larry



 Bill Boyd wrote:

 > 

 > <sportav8r(at)gmail.com>

 >

 > With analog phones, if you can still find one, it is illegal.  He

 > specified CMDA; the old rules seem not to apply to this service.  As

 > PIC, he certifies what is legal in his airplane as far as interference

 > risks to safety of flight.

 >

 > My experience has been that down low, the reception is fine.  Up high,

 > it is as described - very frustrating.  Text messages still work when

 > voice won't, often.  Perhaps the downward tilt of the antenna lobes on

 > the cell towers.  It's been discussed in the archives, but I'll wait

 > to see if any new info surfaces this time around 

 >

 > -Bill B

 >

 > On 10/23/06, David M. <ainut(at)hiwaay.net> wrote:

 >> 

 >>

 >> That used to be illegal -- might still be.  Old cells would tie in with

 >> any tower they could see and from an airplane they could see a lot,

 >> causing jamming to the cell system.

 >>

 >> David M.

 >>

 >>

 >> Dave N6030X wrote:

 >>

 >> > 

 >> > <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com>

 >> >

 >> > I've tried to use my Verizon (CDMA) cellphone on several flights now,

 >> > well within coverage areas, with good signal strength, from 3500 feet

 >> > to as high as 8500 feet in line of sight and close to - or over -

 >> > plenty of civilization.  It never works.

 >> >

 >> > I'll have as many as 5 bars showing, but they are changing rapidly

 >> > from no bars to 3 bars to 5 bars, dancing all around.

 >> >

 >> > What happens is that I dial the number, it spends a few seconds longer

 >> > than normal connecting, and then either connects for a split second,

 >> > or doesn't connect at all, but in either case it pops up a message

 >> > saying "Signal Lost" and disconnects.

 >> >

 >> > Is anybody on this list able to reliably use a cellphone from in your

 >> > airplane?

 >> >

 >> > Thanks,

 >> >

 >> >

 >> > Dave Morris

 >> > 1960 Mooney M20A

 >> > N6030X at 52F

 >> >

 >> >

 >> >

 >> >

 >> >

 >> >

 >> >

 >> >

 >> >

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >>

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

kayce33(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:40 am Post subject: Cellphones in the air

I believe the FCC does not allow cell use in flight.

Harold

---

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:25 am Post subject: Cellphones in the air

I think we spend more time discussing off-topic stuff nowadays.  Seems

like I'm deleting 90% of what is posted.



 http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/cellonplanes.html  <- Horses mouth



Now, can we stick with aircraft electrical systems.



--

N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:02 am Post subject: Cellphones in the air

I know all about the legalities, having studied both the FAA and the 

FCC regs on the matter, and also having read the archives and 

discussed it with a few experts off-list.



I was more curious about the practicality, i.e. whether people were 

ABLE to make connections via cell phones.  If not, and if there are 

no rules against making calls in my Verizon contract, then it would 

seem that Verizon is illegally impeding my use of my cellphone just 

because I'm in the air, and I need to find out why.



Thanks to those of you who generally agreed that you can make calls 

from down low, but not from up high.



Dave Morris

P.S. This is an RF issue, which falls under the science of 

electromagnetism, and thus IMHO included in the mission of this list.

At 08:39 AM 10/24/2006, you wrote:

[quote]

<kayce33(at)earthlink.net>



I believe the FCC does not allow cell use in flight.

Harold

---

mprather(at)spro.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:22 am Post subject: Cellphones in the air

A few comments:

In some places, I have had a very easy time using my GSM phone while in

flight as high as 5000' AGL.  Because the terrain around here is so high,

I can't recall trying to use the phone while above that altitude.

In urban areas (while flying), I think my luck is not as good.  It's

possible that while in flight we get locked out when in areas where user

density demands high tower density.  Handsets used in flight over an urban

area can see MANY more towers than when over sparsely populated areas.

Verizon may not be deliberatly excluding flying subscribers so much as

using antenna systems which concentrate on reliably communicating with

ground based ones.  By doing this they can use fewer towers and/or lower

powered transmitters while providing at least as good coverage.  I would

suspect that Verizon's coverage maps are modeled with ground based users

in mind.

Regards,

Matt-

[quote] 

 <N6030X(at)DaveMorris.com>

 I know all about the legalities, having studied both the FAA and the

 FCC regs on the matter, and also having read the archives and

 discussed it with a few experts off-list.

 I was more curious about the practicality, i.e. whether people were

 ABLE to make connections via cell phones.  If not, and if there are

 no rules against making calls in my Verizon contract, then it would

 seem that Verizon is illegally impeding my use of my cellphone just

 because I'm in the air, and I need to find out why.

 Thanks to those of you who generally agreed that you can make calls

 from down low, but not from up high.

 Dave Morris

 P.S. This is an RF issue, which falls under the science of

 electromagnetism, and thus IMHO included in the mission of this list.

 At 08:39 AM 10/24/2006, you wrote:

>

><kayce33(at)earthlink.net>

>

>I believe the FCC does not allow cell use in flight.

>Harold

>---

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