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EFIS Comparisons
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harley(at)AgelessWings.co
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:45 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Randy...

They have TWO versions...the Auracle I is for non-certified use, and the
Auracle II is for either certified or not...it is about $1500 more than
the non certified version.

And, from their website:

"Programming the Xerion */AuRACLE
(TM)/* is made quick and easy by
visiting www.xerionavionix.com and requesting your aircraft specific
data, downloading the file to your portable USB drive, and then plugging
it into your */AuRACLE
(TM)/*. It's that simple!"

The USB drive is included with the unit.

Harley Dixon
Randall Richter wrote:

[quote]

I spoke to the rep at Oshkosh this summer and this seems like a very good
product. The one thing that gives me pause is the fact that the software
will not be user upgradeable. They will require you to remove the unit and
send it in to them for upgrades. If I'm not mistaken, most of the others
provide updated software via removable card or something similar, right?

He said this was because they're seeking certification and that's not
allowed for certified products. Which tells me they won't have an
"experimental" version of this system.

Randy Richter
-7QB coming along VERY slowly

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Randy Richter



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 5
Location: Reston, VA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:56 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Glad to hear they have listened to the masses!

Randy

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brian



Joined: 02 Jan 2006
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Location: Sacramento, California, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:11 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Randall Richter wrote:
Quote:


I spoke to the rep at Oshkosh this summer and this seems like a very good
product. The one thing that gives me pause is the fact that the software
will not be user upgradeable. They will require you to remove the unit and
send it in to them for upgrades. If I'm not mistaken, most of the others
provide updated software via removable card or something similar, right?

He said this was because they're seeking certification and that's not
allowed for certified products. Which tells me they won't have an
"experimental" version of this system.

That actually doesn't make complete sense. The Sandel 3308 EHSI in my
Aztec allows firmware upgrade in the field. I can upgrade the firmware
using the same cable that is used to upgrade the database. The same was
true for my SL-60 GPS/comm.

So we know that the FAA will certify devices that will allow field
upgrades to the software in the box.

--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

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harley(at)AgelessWings.co
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:25 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

See my previous reply, Brian...

Harley

Brian Lloyd wrote:

Quote:


Randall Richter wrote:


>
>
>I spoke to the rep at Oshkosh this summer and this seems like a very good
>product. The one thing that gives me pause is the fact that the software
>will not be user upgradeable. They will require you to remove the unit and
>send it in to them for upgrades. If I'm not mistaken, most of the others
>provide updated software via removable card or something similar, right?
>
>He said this was because they're seeking certification and that's not
>allowed for certified products. Which tells me they won't have an
>"experimental" version of this system.
>
>

That actually doesn't make complete sense. The Sandel 3308 EHSI in my
Aztec allows firmware upgrade in the field. I can upgrade the firmware
using the same cable that is used to upgrade the database. The same was
true for my SL-60 GPS/comm.

So we know that the FAA will certify devices that will allow field
upgrades to the software in the box.





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aadamson(at)highrf.com
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:27 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Actually, if you want complete flexibility and STC application, the MVP-50
from EI is more configurable with all the bells and whistles. It's also has
support for the Chelton box.

www.buy-ei.com

Alan

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mgoodrich(at)tampabay.rr.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:08 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Hey Randy & Harley,

The Auracle does come 2 different ways. A single box, which means all
the senders
are wired directly to the head unit, and a 2 box. The data aquisition
unit mounted
in the engine compartment and a supplied data cable run up to the head
unit.
Do believe that both units are/will be certified.
I vote for the 2 box. Only because of my limited wireway space, and ease
of install.
Both units have the same exact functionality.

Mitchell Goodrich
VariEze Tampa

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khorton01(at)rogers.com
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:16 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

On 18 Jan 2006, at 18:10, Brian Lloyd wrote:

Quote:

yak(at)lloyd.com>

Randall Richter wrote:
>
> <richterrbb(at)earthlink.net>
>
> I spoke to the rep at Oshkosh this summer and this seems like a
> very good
> product. The one thing that gives me pause is the fact that the
> software
> will not be user upgradeable. They will require you to remove the
> unit and
> send it in to them for upgrades. If I'm not mistaken, most of the
> others
> provide updated software via removable card or something similar,
> right?
>
> He said this was because they're seeking certification and that's not
> allowed for certified products. Which tells me they won't have an
> "experimental" version of this system.

That actually doesn't make complete sense. The Sandel 3308 EHSI in my
Aztec allows firmware upgrade in the field. I can upgrade the firmware
using the same cable that is used to upgrade the database. The same
was
true for my SL-60 GPS/comm.

So we know that the FAA will certify devices that will allow field
upgrades to the software in the box.

We know that some FAA Aircraft Certification Offices will certify
devices that will allow field upgrades to software in the box. Maybe
this is yet another area where different ACOs have different
interpretations. Or, maybe the way that the company wanted to handle
firmware upgrades didn't pass muster with the FAA (rightly or
wrongly), and they decided to drop that feature rather than spend the
money on a redesign. I've seen that scenario often enough in my day
job.

Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8


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harley(at)AgelessWings.co
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:11 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Evening, Mitch...

Their website is a bit confusing then...I didn't see where it mentions
that one or two box option (but I think that I have noticed that at
least one other brand does the same thing), but it does say that the
Auracle I is for non-certified applications, and the Auracle II at $1500
more is for certified.

Of course, the way it is phrased may simply mean that Auracle II is
ready for immediate certification where the Auracle I is not expected to
be certified in the near future.

If you talk to them, you might mention that there is some confusion, as
witnessed by our conversations here today.

I won't be getting down there for awhile...it's snowing again here
<G>...and I've been finishing the parts I brought back here in my
cellar...I'm all camped out in my warm cave until spring! <G>

Harley
Mitchell Goodrich wrote:

[quote]

Hey Randy & Harley,

The Auracle does come 2 different ways. A single box, which means all
the senders
are wired directly to the head unit, and a 2 box. The data aquisition
unit mounted
in the engine compartment and a supplied data cable run up to the head
unit.
Do believe that both units are/will be certified.
I vote for the 2 box. Only because of my limited wireway space, and ease
of install.
Both units have the same exact functionality.

Mitchell Goodrich
VariEze Tampa

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brian



Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:11 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Kevin Horton wrote:

Quote:
>So we know that the FAA will certify devices that will allow field
>upgrades to the software in the box.


We know that some FAA Aircraft Certification Offices will certify
devices that will allow field upgrades to software in the box. Maybe
this is yet another area where different ACOs have different
interpretations. Or, maybe the way that the company wanted to handle
firmware upgrades didn't pass muster with the FAA (rightly or
wrongly), and they decided to drop that feature rather than spend the
money on a redesign. I've seen that scenario often enough in my day
job.

<sigh> Firmware updates in hex format over an RS-232 connection is just
about as ugly as you can get. I can't imagine any way you could do a
worse job of providing this function. (This is how both Sandel and
Apollo/UPSAT/Garmin do it.) Therefore almost any other method makes more
sense. The Xerion Auricle has USB bus master capability to write to a
flash disk in order to write out stored engine data. This means they
could also do updates this way too.

I don't get it.

--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery


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mgoodrich(at)tampabay.rr.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:34 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Evening All,

In response to the field changes of the Auracle:

Keep in mind this is an "Engine Management System, not an EFIS/Guidance
system.
Engine functionality doesn't change, the parameteres are what they are.

What "field changes" would apply to an engine system? Is there
additional functionality
that you expect to gain from software upgrades?? Remember engine
parameters.
If Xerion for some reason makes a change or fixes a bug in the software,
the will, at
their expense pay for shipping and complete the upgrades. Remember
Xerion has a 3 year
warranty.
All the systems are certified. Experimental guys have the total
flexability with the
configuration of the unit, scales, alarms, and warnings (certified
owners do not have
this capability due the FAA restrictions) for the same price we have the
benefits of a certified
system that has been through the rigors of enviromental & software
certification. Yes the
software has to be Certified too. No blue screens of death here!!!
Remember, the Auracle is field configurable, but not field upgradable,
and never will be
upgradable due to certification.
If I am not wrong Xerion has an onstaff a FAA Der
Last but not least the USB doggle (Memory Stick) that plugs into the
front of the unit,
copies your custom configuraton. If you send the unit back for whatever
reason, just plug
the doggle in and its back to original state. A big PLUS is the data
recorder that keeps
track of past engine functions for approx 500 hours. Plug in the memory
stick, copy it,
take it home and see how the engine has been performing( or how bad the
operator has abused
your engine?) Great for corporate, or rental situations. I can use it
for diagnostics when I race.
All in all its a well thought out system and the owners provide
fantastic customer service.
Give the office a call if you want to get answers directly. They will
talk to you!!!

Mitchell Goodrich
Varieze Tampa

Soon to be Flying a 2 box AuRacle

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:40 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Hey Harley,

yeah they have a bit of work on the site to do.
If you look again, you'll see that the 4 cyl is
without sensors and the other is with sensors.
The actual diff between the1 and 2 box is bout 700.00
Mitchell Goodrich
Modular Electric LLC
Managing Partner
813-356-9758

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brian



Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:44 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Harley wrote:

Quote:
If you talk to them, you might mention that there is some confusion, as
witnessed by our conversations here today.

I sent them a number of queries. If anybody else is interested I will
post the responses. Much of what I asked had to do with using it with a
9-cyl radial engine however.

--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:50 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Kevin,

I will check again, but in my discussions with the FAA,
Certed Engine Management Systems CANNOT be field upgradable,
well unless its by the factory. So in reality they are,
just not by the owner. Think about it, letting anyone
change the funtionality of your planes critical engine instrument.
The units are field configurable!!
The software has to be Certified, and is intro'd into the
field with no allowed changes. Each Cert'd AC and engine
combo has its own parameters, no changes!
Mitchell Goodrich

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:01 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Brian -

I'm interested in how 'proprietary' the data pipe between their two
boxes (or coming out of one box) is. Standard CAN, RS-XXX, or something
wacky? In other words, will their datastream be available for external
products to 'sniff' for data?

If you asked about that in/amongst your questions about your MOOSE of an
engine (Russian?), I'd appreciate hearing the response(s).

D

Brian Lloyd wrote:
Quote:


Harley wrote:


>If you talk to them, you might mention that there is some confusion, as
>witnessed by our conversations here today.


I sent them a number of queries. If anybody else is interested I will
post the responses. Much of what I asked had to do with using it with a
9-cyl radial engine however.



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Joined: 02 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:31 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Mitchell Goodrich wrote:
Quote:


Kevin,

I will check again, but in my discussions with the FAA,
Certed Engine Management Systems CANNOT be field upgradable,
well unless its by the factory. So in reality they are,
just not by the owner. Think about it, letting anyone
change the funtionality of your planes critical engine instrument.
The units are field configurable!!

That is funny. There is no such thing as a critical engine instrument.
Our airplanes will fly safely without any engine instruments at all,
except maybe a CHT indicator so we don't burn up the engine by keeping
the cowl flaps closed. I would bet that I could fly any piston-powered
aircraft to a safe landing without any engine damage after a loss of all
engine instruments. I couldn't fly to a safe landing without my gyros (IFR).

OTOH, I can update the software in my flight display instruments (Sandel
in my case) or my navigation instruments (Apollo GPS/comm). What are
they thinking?

Quote:
The software has to be Certified, and is intro'd into the
field with no allowed changes. Each Cert'd AC and engine
combo has its own parameters, no changes!

Again, that certainly is a chuckle. We use the same engine instruments
without change on many different aircraft and engine combinations. I
wonder what their justification is.

--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:37 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

D Wysong wrote:
Quote:


Brian -

I'm interested in how 'proprietary' the data pipe between their two
boxes (or coming out of one box) is. Standard CAN, RS-XXX, or something
wacky?

I hope it is CAN bus.

Quote:
In other words, will their datastream be available for external
products to 'sniff' for data?

I didn't ask but I am sure I will get around to it. It will probably be
better for me to just call them and talk. I am sure that each answer
will probably generate yet another question.

Quote:
If you asked about that in/amongst your questions about your MOOSE of an
engine (Russian?), I'd appreciate hearing the response(s).

No, I am not building a Moose. I have a Nanchang CJ6A trainer. The stock
Chinese engine is a 9-cyl radial made by Huosai. We also like to replace
the Chinese motor with a Vendenyev M14P which delivers 360hp instead of
285hp. The aircraft designer, Bushi Cheng, told us that the airframe was
designed for a 400hp engine.

Regardless, both engines are 9-cyl radials and need the same
instrumentation. The only difference is that the M14P doesn't have a
mixture control. It has an aneroid that adjusts the mixture in flight.
The Huosai has a mixture control.

--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:04 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Brian,

in actuality Xerion's instrumentation is using Can-Aerospace Protocol.
The system uses a dual-redundant CAN Network. Its their beleif that the
CAN protocol is versatile and robust in high-noise enviroments which is
why
it is starting to be used more often in avionics, and is the choice in
the
auto industry...........

Mitchell

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:12 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Nah... I was just poking fun with the "MOOSE" comment because I have
"engine envy." 400HP!?? That'd be one helluva ride!

Thanks for passing on what you find out about their datastream.

D

do not archive
------------------
Brian Lloyd wrote:
Quote:
No, I am not building a Moose. I have a Nanchang CJ6A trainer. The stock
Chinese engine is a 9-cyl radial made by Huosai. We also like to replace
the Chinese motor with a Vendenyev M14P which delivers 360hp instead of
285hp. The aircraft designer, Bushi Cheng, told us that the airframe was
designed for a 400hp engine.

Regardless, both engines are 9-cyl radials and need the same
instrumentation. The only difference is that the M14P doesn't have a
mixture control. It has an aneroid that adjusts the mixture in flight.
The Huosai has a mixture control.



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:23 pm    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Mitchell Goodrich wrote:

Quote:
in actuality Xerion's instrumentation is using Can-Aerospace Protocol.
The system uses a dual-redundant CAN Network. Its their beleif that the
CAN protocol is versatile and robust in high-noise enviroments which is
why
it is starting to be used more often in avionics, and is the choice in
the
auto industry...........

No need to tell me that. A couple of us started to design an cockpit
instrumentation suite using a CAN bus running CAN-aerospace as an
interconnect. CAN-bus is pretty slick.

--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
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harley(at)AgelessWings.co
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:37 am    Post subject: EFIS Comparisons Reply with quote

Morning, Mitch..

>>you'll see that the 4 cyl is without sensors and the other is with
sensors<<

Ah, yes...you are correct...I see that now...guess I assumed that they
would list the two units the same way...first without the sensors, then
with them. If it fooled me, it probably caught a few others as well.

Time for me to get back to the "cave" and the sanding...<G>

Harley

Mitchell Goodrich wrote:

[quote]

Hey Harley,

yeah they have a bit of work on the site to do.
If you look again, you'll see that the 4 cyl is
without sensors and the other is with sensors.
The actual diff between the1 and 2 box is bout 700.00
Mitchell Goodrich
Modular Electric LLC
Managing Partner
813-356-9758

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