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toggle switches better than Carling?

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N1921R

Joined: 31 Jan 2024
Posts: 3

Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2024 4:54 pm Post subject: toggle switches better than Carling?

After reading on VAF about failures of Carling toggle switches with faston tabs attached with hollow rivets I was planning to use Honeywell TS but they have been  discontinued.



One VAF thread: https://vansairforce.net/threads/failing-intermittent-toggle-switch.172765/



I'd like to find good quality toggle switches that use faston tabs and come in configurations like 2-10... any thoughts here on AEL?



I find APEM on Newark, part number 644H/2 for instance seems to be 2-10 configuration. It has tabs called solder lug/quick-connect which have a larger thru hole compared to what APEM calls normalized quick-connect tabs which have the smaller through hole I am used to seeing. APEMs with normalized quick-connect tabs are not stocked that I can find. The switch description says "terminal and contact support is manufactured from a single piece of metal. The contacts are resistance-welded to the terminal for increased mechanical strength". Bushing dia is 12 mm which is practically the same, 0.004" larger, compared to the 15/32" I am used to.



Newark page for APEM 644H/2: https://www.newark.com/apem/644h-2/switch-dp3t-10a-250vac/dp/96C7308



APEM 600H data sheet: https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1697794.pdf

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Single battery, alternator on main bus, Monkworkz generator on engine/essential bus.
My links here

kenryan

Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 424

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2024 6:29 am Post subject: toggle switches better than Carling?

Nikkai (NKK) switches seem good to me and they are available in fast on configuration.



On Sat, Feb 3, 2024 at 3:58â€¯PM N1921R <RV.6A.N1921R(at)gmail.com (RV.6A.N1921R(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "N1921R" <RV.6A.N1921R(at)gmail.com (RV.6A.N1921R(at)gmail.com)>

 

 After reading on VAF about failures of Carling toggle switches with faston tabs attached with hollow rivets I was planning to use Honeywell TS but they have beenÂ  discontinued.

 

 One VAF thread: https://vansairforce.net/threads/failing-intermittent-toggle-switch.172765/

 

 I'd like to find good quality toggle switches that use faston tabs and come in configurations like 2-10... any thoughts here on AEL?

 

 I find APEM on Newark, part number 644H/2 for instance seems to be 2-10 configuration. It has tabs called solder lug/quick-connect which have a larger thru hole compared to what APEM calls normalized quick-connect tabs which have the smaller through hole I am used to seeing. APEMs with normalized quick-connect tabs are not stocked that I can find. The switch description says "terminal and contact support is manufactured from a single piece of metal. The contacts are resistance-welded to the terminal for increased mechanical strength". Bushing dia is 12 mm which is practically the same, 0.004" larger, compared to the 15/32" I am used to.

 

 Newark page for APEM 644H/2: https://www.newark.com/apem/644h-2/switch-dp3t-10a-250vac/dp/96C7308

 

 APEM 600H data sheet: https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1697794.pdf

 

 --------

 John Bright, RV-6A N1921R, working on FWF.

 Single battery, alternator on main bus, Monkworkz generator on engine/essential bus.

 My links <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YOtPiA3AdUsQEYR4nodBESNAo21rxdnx4pFs7VxXfuI/edit?pli=1">here</a>

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513195#513195

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 381
Location: MS

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2024 9:16 am Post subject: toggle switches better than Carling?

On Sat, Feb 3, 2024 at 6:58â€¯PM N1921R <RV.6A.N1921R(at)gmail.com (RV.6A.N1921R(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "N1921R" <RV.6A.N1921R(at)gmail.com (RV.6A.N1921R(at)gmail.com)>

 

 After reading on VAF about failures of Carling toggle switches with faston tabs attached with hollow rivets I was planning to use Honeywell TS but they have beenÂ  discontinued.

 

 One VAF thread: https://vansairforce.net/threads/failing-intermittent-toggle-switch.172765/

 

 I'd like to find good quality toggle switches that use faston tabs and come in configurations like 2-10... any thoughts here on AEL?

 

 I find APEM on Newark, part number 644H/2 for instance seems to be 2-10 configuration. It has tabs called solder lug/quick-connect which have a larger thru hole compared to what APEM calls normalized quick-connect tabs which have the smaller through hole I am used to seeing. APEMs with normalized quick-connect tabs are not stocked that I can find. The switch description says "terminal and contact support is manufactured from a single piece of metal. The contacts are resistance-welded to the terminal for increased mechanical strength". Bushing dia is 12 mm which is practically the same, 0.004" larger, compared to the 15/32" I am used to.

 

 Newark page for APEM 644H/2: https://www.newark.com/apem/644h-2/switch-dp3t-10a-250vac/dp/96C7308

 

 APEM 600H data sheet: https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1697794.pdf

 

 --------

 John Bright, RV-6A N1921R, working on FWF.

 Single battery, alternator on main bus, Monkworkz generator on engine/essential bus.

 My links <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YOtPiA3AdUsQEYR4nodBESNAo21rxdnx4pFs7VxXfuI/edit?pli=1">here</a>

 



	
Hi John,

Did you read the entiretyÂ of that VAF thread? Might be worth your time to go back and re-read it, assigning weight to what's significant. Your takeaway about hollowÂ rivets might be the most insignificant thing in the thread.  There are also some criticisms of supposed failure points where the responder got the failure point wrong. Only one responder mentioned multiple failures; that could have been a bad batch of switches, or 'pilot error'. Consider that quite a few of us have seen failures of milspec circuitÂ breakers; does that mean *everyone* should findÂ a differentÂ circuit breaker?

(I was the 1st responder to that VAF thread.)Â 



Virus-free.www.avast.com[url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2][/url]

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Charlie

Voyager

Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Posts: 77

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2024 9:54 am Post subject: toggle switches better than Carling?

Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		  On Feb 4, 2024, at 12:18â€¯PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:



ï»¿



On Sat, Feb 3, 2024 at 6:58â€¯PM N1921R <RV.6A.N1921R(at)gmail.com (RV.6A.N1921R(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "N1921R" <RV.6A.N1921R(at)gmail.com (RV.6A.N1921R(at)gmail.com)>

 

 After reading on VAF about failures of Carling toggle switches with faston tabs attached with hollow rivets I was planning to use Honeywell TS but they have been  discontinued.

 

 One VAF thread: https://vansairforce.net/threads/failing-intermittent-toggle-switch.172765/

 

 I'd like to find good quality toggle switches that use faston tabs and come in configurations like 2-10... any thoughts here on AEL?

 

 I find APEM on Newark, part number 644H/2 for instance seems to be 2-10 configuration. It has tabs called solder lug/quick-connect which have a larger thru hole compared to what APEM calls normalized quick-connect tabs which have the smaller through hole I am used to seeing. APEMs with normalized quick-connect tabs are not stocked that I can find. The switch description says "terminal and contact support is manufactured from a single piece of metal. The contacts are resistance-welded to the terminal for increased mechanical strength". Bushing dia is 12 mm which is practically the same, 0.004" larger, compared to the 15/32" I am used to.

 

 Newark page for APEM 644H/2: https://www.newark.com/apem/644h-2/switch-dp3t-10a-250vac/dp/96C7308

 

 APEM 600H data sheet: https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1697794.pdf

 

 --------

 John Bright, RV-6A N1921R, working on FWF.

 Single battery, alternator on main bus, Monkworkz generator on engine/essential bus.

 My links <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YOtPiA3AdUsQEYR4nodBESNAo21rxdnx4pFs7VxXfuI/edit?pli=1">here</a>

 



	
Hi John,

Did you read the entirety of that VAF thread? Might be worth your time to go back and re-read it, assigning weight to what's significant. Your takeaway about hollow rivets might be the most insignificant thing in the thread.  There are also some criticisms of supposed failure points where the responder got the failure point wrong. Only one responder mentioned multiple failures; that could have been a bad batch of switches, or 'pilot error'. Consider that quite a few of us have seen failures of milspec circuit breakers; does that mean *everyone* should find a different circuit breaker?

(I was the 1st responder to that VAF thread.) 



	




I was thinking the same thing. A well set hollow rivet will withstand a hundred pounds of force easily.  My S-21 is almost entirely made of essentially hollow rivets.  Sure, they still have the mandrel in place, but this only helps in shear force.  Tensile strength is pretty much entirely from the hollow rivet body.



If rivets on the contacts are failing, that is either due to a bad manufacturing batch (it happens to the best of companies) or poor installation where the wires lack proper strain relief.

I plan to use switches from B & C and they may be Carling or a similar brand and I have no concern with longevity.  I use relays for any circuit that draws more than a couple amps just as most modern cars use.  And the risk of a switch going bad due to too little current being switched can happen, but that is largely an OWT today.  And generally this only affects switches that are switching logic level currents with computers, PLCs, etc, where the current is measured in micro amps or small mA numbers.  Even a typical auto relay coil flows enough current (30 mA or more) for most switches to live a pretty long life.

Matt



 	  Quote: 	
		  [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2][/url]

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2024 12:07 pm Post subject: toggle switches better than Carling?

At 11:15 AM 2/4/2024, you wrote:



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  On Sat, Feb 3, 2024 at 6:58â€¯PM N1921R <RV.6A.N1921R(at)gmail.com (RV.6A.N1921R(at)gmail.com) > wrote:

   --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "N1921R" <RV.6A.N1921R(at)gmail.com (RV.6A.N1921R(at)gmail.com) >



  After reading on VAF about failures of Carling toggle switches with faston tabs attached with hollow rivets I was planning to use Honeywell TS but they have beenÂ  discontinued.



  One VAF thread:  https://vansairforce.net/threads/failing-intermittent-toggle-switch.172765/ 



  I'd like to find good quality toggle switches that use faston tabs and come in configurations like 2-10... any thoughts here on AEL? 	
 

     Failed after 660 hrs??? How many years of service and

     under what manner of environmental/service stress? Was

     root cause for the failure skillfully diagnosed?

     

     I've studied and resolved dozens of 'contact failures'

     in a constellation of relays and switches that

     ranged from hardware-store to mil-spec devices.

     There were very few instances wherein

     studies were the basis for 'upgrading' a 

     failed device.



     The Carling switch configuration under discussion

     has been used in very high volumes in aircraft

     for decades. We're just making the change-over

     to those switches (with rocker actuators)

     at Cessna when I worked there in 1965.

   

     Yes, there were field failures but relatively

     rare in the grand scheme of things with majority

     of failures attributable to conditions external

     to the switch . . . moisture, bad 

     terminal crimp, poor fast-on-grip, etc.



     So what's the benchmark for satisfactory

     service life? Is the failure of any switch

     a potential for uncomfortable termination

     of flight? If so, what about the myriad

     of peripheral components of that system?

     

     Had a reader many moons ago who was worried

     about the quality of his landing light

     switch . . . I had to remind him, "You do

     know those bulbs burn out sometime."



     Do your FMEA and strive to have no single

     failure become a hazard to comfortable

     completion of flight.



     Did a study on roll trim relays on Beechjets

     way back when where contacts were sticking

     shut causing the occasional hard-over runaway

     in roll trim.



     After much study and bench tests I discovered

     a design consideration that didn't manifest

     until a redesign of the trim system replaced

     legacy 10A relays (mil-spec no less) with

     a 5A relay (also mil-spec). I discovered

     that arcing during contact bounce was

     exacerbated by reflections of energy

     from the far end of a shielded wire

     bypassed with a fat capacitor. Clip

     the shield ground or eliminate the

     capacitor (neither one of which was

     needed) and the problem resolved.



     During the investigation of some 2+

     years, I did discover that one brand

     of relay was a bit more tolerant of

     the abuse. Management in their infinite

     wisdom purged stock of the 'bad' relay

     and banned them from future purchase.

     The 'good' relay was substituted and

     life went on . . . that way nobody

     had to change any drawings.



     Yeah, that's a short story made long but

     I hope it illustrates the value in having

     good data as to cause/effect and cost/benefit

     before changing course from a well worn pathway.



 

   Bob . . .



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N1921R

Joined: 31 Jan 2024
Posts: 3

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2024 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: toggle switches better than Carling?

Thanks guys for bringing me back to reality.

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_________________
John Bright, RV-6A N1921R, working on FWF.
Single battery, alternator on main bus, Monkworkz generator on engine/essential bus.
My links here

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