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Dave Saylor
Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 207
Location: GILROY, CA
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 Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 7:58 am Post subject: Non-aero GFCI question |
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I have an outdoor circuit on a GFCI breaker that trips regularly after minutes/hours/days and always without any known load on the circuit. I'll come back to use an outlet, and find that the GFCI has tripped. The breaker is in an outbuilding subpanel with several other breakers. The other breakers all behave normally. There are four outlets on the breaker, only one of which is regularly in use.
The circuit started with a standard breaker and had an integrated GFCI outlet to meet the outdoor protection requirement. I replaced that outlet with an unprotected outdoor type, and changed the breaker to GFCI, but the problem persists.
Here's what I've tried and observed:
*Cleaned out and insect-sealed all the various junction boxes. Some were infested but no overall effect.
*Replaced the wiring from the breaker to the outlets. It had an underground section, which was replaced with above-ground wiring. I can now literally look at every inch of wire.
*Isolated each of the outlets from the others. Same problem no matter which outlet is active.
*Same behavior with the standard breaker and the new GFCI breaker. I think that should rule out the breaker.
*Same behavior in dry or wet weather.
Can someone tell me if a problem upstream of the breaker, like a faulty ground, would cause this? Now grasping at straws, I'm considering installing a dedicated ground rod at the outbuilding. It's about 250' from the main panel.
Any insights are greatly appreciated. Thanks for the non-aero attention.
--Dave
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milgrom(at)earthlink.net
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 9:17 am Post subject: Non-aero GFCI question |
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Hello Dave,
I recently had had two electric vehicle chargers installed in my garage, so while the electrician was here I asked him to replace the battered 60-year-old 120 volt 15 amp non-GFCI receptacles in my garage with modern GFCI versions, which he did.
I watched him install each GFCI and picked his brain along the way, and gleaned two nuggets of information about GFCI’s. The first nugget is that GFCI’s are susceptible to nuisance tripping if the string of GFCI’s on a circuit are not properly wired line to load, line to load. The second nugget is that garage door motors should never be plugged into a GFCI (“Garage door motors don’t play nice with GFCI” according to him).
I am definitely not an electrician, and I don’t fully understand everything he explained to me, but I think I am accurately relaying what he said. Maybe one of those two nuggets might explain your nuisance tripping. Good luck.
Mark Milgrom
| Quote: | On Oct 31, 2023, at 8:59 AM, Dave Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com> wrote:
I have an outdoor circuit on a GFCI breaker that trips regularly after minutes/hours/days and always without any known load on the circuit. I'll come back to use an outlet, and find that the GFCI has tripped. The breaker is in an outbuilding subpanel with several other breakers. The other breakers all behave normally. There are four outlets on the breaker, only one of which is regularly in use.
The circuit started with a standard breaker and had an integrated GFCI outlet to meet the outdoor protection requirement. I replaced that outlet with an unprotected outdoor type, and changed the breaker to GFCI, but the problem persists.
Here's what I've tried and observed:
*Cleaned out and insect-sealed all the various junction boxes. Some were infested but no overall effect.
*Replaced the wiring from the breaker to the outlets. It had an underground section, which was replaced with above-ground wiring. I can now literally look at every inch of wire.
*Isolated each of the outlets from the others. Same problem no matter which outlet is active.
*Same behavior with the standard breaker and the new GFCI breaker. I think that should rule out the breaker.
*Same behavior in dry or wet weather.
Can someone tell me if a problem upstream of the breaker, like a faulty ground, would cause this? Now grasping at straws, I'm considering installing a dedicated ground rod at the outbuilding. It's about 250' from the main panel.
Any insights are greatly appreciated. Thanks for the non-aero attention.
--Dave
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milgrom(at)earthlink.net
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 9:26 am Post subject: Non-aero GFCI question |
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After re-reading my post below, let me clarify the second “nugget”.
I wrote: “The second nugget is that garage door motors should never be plugged into a GFCI (“Garage door motors don’t play nice with GFCI” according to him).“
What I should have written is: “The second nugget is that a garage door motor should never be plugged into a receptacle that is part of a circuit that includes GFCI receptacles.” This more accurately captures what my electrician told me.
Mark
| Quote: | On Oct 31, 2023, at 10:17 AM, Mark Milgrom <milgrom(at)earthlink.net> wrote:
Hello Dave,
I recently had had two electric vehicle chargers installed in my garage, so while the electrician was here I asked him to replace the battered 60-year-old 120 volt 15 amp non-GFCI receptacles in my garage with modern GFCI versions, which he did.
I watched him install each GFCI and picked his brain along the way, and gleaned two nuggets of information about GFCI’s. The first nugget is that GFCI’s are susceptible to nuisance tripping if the string of GFCI’s on a circuit are not properly wired line to load, line to load. The second nugget is that garage door motors should never be plugged into a GFCI (“Garage door motors don’t play nice with GFCI” according to him).
I am definitely not an electrician, and I don’t fully understand everything he explained to me, but I think I am accurately relaying what he said. Maybe one of those two nuggets might explain your nuisance tripping. Good luck.
Mark Milgrom
> On Oct 31, 2023, at 8:59 AM, Dave Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I have an outdoor circuit on a GFCI breaker that trips regularly after minutes/hours/days and always without any known load on the circuit. I'll come back to use an outlet, and find that the GFCI has tripped. The breaker is in an outbuilding subpanel with several other breakers. The other breakers all behave normally. There are four outlets on the breaker, only one of which is regularly in use.
>
> The circuit started with a standard breaker and had an integrated GFCI outlet to meet the outdoor protection requirement. I replaced that outlet with an unprotected outdoor type, and changed the breaker to GFCI, but the problem persists.
>
> Here's what I've tried and observed:
>
> *Cleaned out and insect-sealed all the various junction boxes. Some were infested but no overall effect.
> *Replaced the wiring from the breaker to the outlets. It had an underground section, which was replaced with above-ground wiring. I can now literally look at every inch of wire.
> *Isolated each of the outlets from the others. Same problem no matter which outlet is active.
> *Same behavior with the standard breaker and the new GFCI breaker. I think that should rule out the breaker.
> *Same behavior in dry or wet weather.
>
> Can someone tell me if a problem upstream of the breaker, like a faulty ground, would cause this? Now grasping at straws, I'm considering installing a dedicated ground rod at the outbuilding. It's about 250' from the main panel.
>
> Any insights are greatly appreciated. Thanks for the non-aero attention.
>
> --Dave
>
>
>
>
|
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Ceengland
Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 381
Location: MS
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 1:00 pm Post subject: Non-aero GFCI question |
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On 10/31/2023 10:57 AM, Dave Saylor wrote:
| Quote: | I have an outdoor circuit on a GFCI breaker that trips regularly after
minutes/hours/days and always without any known load on the circuit.
I'll come back to use an outlet, and find that the GFCI has tripped.
The breaker is in an outbuilding subpanel with several other
breakers. The other breakers all behave normally. There are four
outlets on the breaker, only one of which is regularly in use.
The circuit started with a standard breaker and had an integrated GFCI
outlet to meet the outdoor protection requirement. I replaced that
outlet with an unprotected outdoor type, and changed the breaker to
GFCI, but the problem persists.
Here's what I've tried and observed:
*Cleaned out and insect-sealed all the various junction boxes. Some
were infested but no overall effect.
*Replaced the wiring from the breaker to the outlets. It had an
underground section, which was replaced with above-ground wiring. I
can now literally look at every inch of wire.
*Isolated each of the outlets from the others. Same problem no matter
which outlet is active.
*Same behavior with the standard breaker and the new GFCI breaker. I
think that should rule out the breaker.
*Same behavior in dry or wet weather.
Can someone tell me if a problem upstream of the breaker, like a
faulty ground, would cause this? Now grasping at straws, I'm
considering installing a dedicated ground rod at the outbuilding.
It's about 250' from the main panel.
Any insights are greatly appreciated. Thanks for the non-aero attention.
--Dave
I haven't had much luck finding a nice, concise explanation (with
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circles and arrows and description on the back; apologies to Mr.
Guthrie) of GFCIs online. But the name is deceptive. The 'ground fault'
in the name isn't a bad ground; it's a *fault TO ground*. The GFCI
compares current on the 'hot' wire to current on the neutral wire, and
if they don't match perfectly, then some of the current is taking a
different path (a different 'ground') back to the source. The current
following a ground instead of the neutral is what makes the 'ground
fault'. Fluke has a fair description here:
https://www.fluke.com/en-us/learn/blog/grounding/chasing-ghost-trips-in-gfci-protected-circuits
Here's a Fluke article on how to test for leakage. Unfortunately, it
takes a very sensitive ($$$) meter to do it:
https://www.fluke.com/en-us/learn/blog/clamps/leakage-current-measurement-basics
"*Same behavior with the standard breaker and the new GFCI breaker. I
think that should rule out the breaker."
Does that mean, 'standard breaker and GFCI outlet, and the GFCIoutlet
trips'? (If the standard breaker itself is tripping, then there are
bigger issues.  )
Have you tried completely disconnecting the branch circuit from the
GFCI, and give it a few days to see if it trips?
Have you tried a GFCI breaker on a different circuit in the same
subpanel to see if that one will trip, as well?
The only thing that comes to mind 'remotely' is leakage to ground in the
cable between house & outbuilding, but it's hard to visualize how a GFCI
in the outbuilding could see that.
Charlie
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Dave Saylor
Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 207
Location: GILROY, CA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 1:56 pm Post subject: Non-aero GFCI question |
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Thank you Charlie. I have some things to check.
| Quote: | "Does that mean, 'standard breaker and GFCI outlet, and the GFCIoutlet
trips'? (If the standard breaker itself is tripping, then there are
bigger issues. )
|
Yep, that's what I meant. When the standard breaker was installed, it never tripped. But the GFCI outlet downstream of it would trip. Now there are no GFCI outlets in the branch, but the associated GFCI breaker is tripping.
I haven't tried the breaker all by itself. I'll give that a shot.
There's another GFCI outlet in the building, and it has tripped before. I attributed that to an extension cord laying out in the rain. Besides that one time, the other GFCI seems reliable. But might be worth looking into.
I understand that a single GFCI outlet on a branch will protect the entire branch. Does that seem right? If that's the case, is the single breaker providing GFCI protection to the entire subpanel? Maybe I need to broaden my search for the culprit. So far I've only been searching past the breaker.
The outbuilding houses water tanks, pressure tank/pump/switches, and a float switch...plenty of opportunity to get wet. But those items never trip. Just the outdoor GFCI.
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Ceengland
Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 381
Location: MS
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 3:55 pm Post subject: Non-aero GFCI question |
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On 10/31/2023 4:55 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
| Quote: | Thank you Charlie. I have some things to check.
| Quote: | "Does that mean, 'standard breaker and GFCI outlet, and the GFCIoutlet
trips'? (If the standard breaker itself is tripping, then there are
bigger issues. )
|
Yep, that's what I meant. When the standard breaker was installed, it never tripped. But the GFCI outlet downstream of it would trip. Now there are no GFCI outlets in the branch, but the associated GFCI breaker is tripping.
I haven't tried the breaker all by itself. I'll give that a shot.
There's another GFCI outlet in the building, and it has tripped before. I attributed that to an extension cord laying out in the rain. Besides that one time, the other GFCI seems reliable. But might be worth looking into.
I understand that a single GFCI outlet on a branch will protect the entire branch. Does that seem right? If that's the case, is the single breaker providing GFCI protection to the entire subpanel? Maybe I need to broaden my search for the culprit. So far I've only been searching past the breaker.
The outbuilding houses water tanks, pressure tank/pump/switches, and a float switch...plenty of opportunity to get wet. But those items never trip. Just the outdoor GFCI.
|
My understanding is that a GFCI outlet will 'protect' outlets that are *downstream* of the GFCI outlet. Normally, it would be the 1st outlet in the chain, but if for instance a circuit had been run to an interior outlet, then to an outside outlet that got the GFCI installed, then only the outdoor outlet and whatever followed it going away from the panel would be protected.
If yours still trips with all branch wiring disconnected, then this is a really long shot, but should be fairly simple to try: Move the GFCI to another slot in the panel, and see what happens.
Just thought about this: Have you checked on whether the outbuilding's subpanel is 'bonded'? The correct way to wire a subpanel is to run the hot(s), the neutral, and and a separate insulated ground all the way to the main panel, so that the only 'earth' point is at the main panel/meter. But subpanels sometimes get wired with local grounds, and it's also possible that the installer bonded the neutral bus and ground bus in the subpanel instead of leaving the neutral & ground isolated.
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1908
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: Non-aero GFCI question |
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GFCI breakers and outlets are very sensitive. And some are more sensitive
than others. And some are too sensitive. All it takes is a few milliamps
difference between the hot and neutral to trip. 50 milliamps through a
person's heart can stop it from beating. I suggest that you replace the GFCI
breaker with a standard breaker. Then replace every outlet with a GFCI
outlet with no other outlets downstream of each GFCI outlet. Now if a GFCI
outlet trips, either the load is defective or else the GFCI outlet is defective. If
a GFCI outlet trips off, then power is only lost to whatever is plugged into that
one outlet. The other GFCI outs should not be affected.
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finn.lassen(at)verizon.ne
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 5:44 pm Post subject: Non-aero GFCI question |
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A typical GCFI outlet has Line and Load terminals. Only if additional outlets are connected to the Load terminals will they be protected. When pressing the TEST button, all devices connected downstream should lose power.
But you're talking about a GCFI breaker here, right? Then all outlets connected to that breaker will be protected.
Either you have a bad GCFI breaker, moisture or something else going on with the wiring or outlets. I think the suggestion of disconnecting wiring to the GCFI breaker is a good idea. If it pops you know it's bad.
Note that there are now also arc-detection breakers (required in bedrooms, I believe). They do not play well with dimmers.
Finn
On 10/31/2023 7:59 PM, Charlie England wrote:
| Quote: | On 10/31/2023 4:55 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
| Quote: | Thank you Charlie. I have some things to check.
| Quote: | "Does that mean, 'standard breaker and GFCI outlet, and the GFCIoutlet
trips'? (If the standard breaker itself is tripping, then there are
bigger issues. )
|
Yep, that's what I meant. When the standard breaker was installed, it never tripped. But the GFCI outlet downstream of it would trip. Now there are no GFCI outlets in the branch, but the associated GFCI breaker is tripping.
I haven't tried the breaker all by itself. I'll give that a shot.
There's another GFCI outlet in the building, and it has tripped before. I attributed that to an extension cord laying out in the rain. Besides that one time, the other GFCI seems reliable. But might be worth looking into.
I understand that a single GFCI outlet on a branch will protect the entire branch. Does that seem right? If that's the case, is the single breaker providing GFCI protection to the entire subpanel? Maybe I need to broaden my search for the culprit. So far I've only been searching past the breaker.
The outbuilding houses water tanks, pressure tank/pump/switches, and a float switch...plenty of opportunity to get wet. But those items never trip. Just the outdoor GFCI.
|
My understanding is that a GFCI outlet will 'protect' outlets that are *downstream* of the GFCI outlet. Normally, it would be the 1st outlet in the chain, but if for instance a circuit had been run to an interior outlet, then to an outside outlet that got the GFCI installed, then only the outdoor outlet and whatever followed it going away from the panel would be protected.
If yours still trips with all branch wiring disconnected, then this is a really long shot, but should be fairly simple to try: Move the GFCI to another slot in the panel, and see what happens.
Just thought about this: Have you checked on whether the outbuilding's subpanel is 'bonded'? The correct way to wire a subpanel is to run the hot(s), the neutral, and and a separate insulated ground all the way to the main panel, so that the only 'earth' point is at the main panel/meter. But subpanels sometimes get wired with local grounds, and it's also possible that the installer bonded the neutral bus and ground bus in the subpanel instead of leaving the neutral & ground isolated.
Virus-free.www.avast.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]
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Dave Saylor
Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 207
Location: GILROY, CA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2023 6:00 pm Post subject: Non-aero GFCI question |
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Glen and Skywagonguy and all,
Same here, no GFCIs in series. The subpanel is powered by a standard breaker right off the main panel. The common and two power leads are wired to the right buses. There is a dedicated ground wire tying the main panel and subpanel together. It's a little odd though that the ground wire is several sizes smaller than the other three. I don't think that would cause a problem, but I wonder how much current it would carry over its 250' run.
Today I moved the GFCI breaker to a circuit that just has a single outlet and a light, immediately adjacent to the subpanel. I replaced the GFCI breaker on the outdoor plugs with a standard breaker, and I will put a GFCI breaker at the plug I use the most. Fingers crossed, I hope to learn another thing or two.
Thanks everyone for great suggestions.
--Dave
On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 6:41 PM user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
GFCI breakers and outlets are very sensitive. And some are more sensitive
than others. And some are too sensitive. All it takes is a few milliamps
difference between the hot and neutral to trip. 50 milliamps through a
person's heart can stop it from beating. I suggest that you replace the GFCI
breaker with a standard breaker. Then replace every outlet with a GFCI
outlet with no other outlets downstream of each GFCI outlet. Now if a GFCI
outlet trips, either the load is defective or else the GFCI outlet is defective. If
a GFCI outlet trips off, then power is only lost to whatever is plugged into that
one outlet. The other GFCI outs should not be affected.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=511684#511684
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Ceengland
Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 381
Location: MS
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2023 6:27 pm Post subject: Non-aero GFCI question |
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Not directly relevant to your GFCI issue, but the ground wire should *never* carry current, unless there's a problem. It's common for the ground wire to be a size smaller than the hot & neutral.
Charlie
On 11/3/2023 8:59 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:
| Quote: | Glen and Skywagonguy and all,
Same here, no GFCIs in series. The subpanel is powered by a standard breaker right off the main panel. The common and two power leads are wired to the right buses. There is a dedicated ground wire tying the main panel and subpanel together. It's a little odd though that the ground wire is several sizes smaller than the other three. I don't think that would cause a problem, but I wonder how much current it would carry over its 250' run.
Today I moved the GFCI breaker to a circuit that just has a single outlet and a light, immediately adjacent to the subpanel. I replaced the GFCI breaker on the outdoor plugs with a standard breaker, and I will put a GFCI breaker at the plug I use the most. Fingers crossed, I hope to learn another thing or two.
Thanks everyone for great suggestions.
--Dave
On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 6:41 PM user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
GFCI breakers and outlets are very sensitive. And some are more sensitive
than others. And some are too sensitive. All it takes is a few milliamps
difference between the hot and neutral to trip. 50 milliamps through a
person's heart can stop it from beating. I suggest that you replace the GFCI
breaker with a standard breaker. Then replace every outlet with a GFCI
outlet with no other outlets downstream of each GFCI outlet. Now if a GFCI
outlet trips, either the load is defective or else the GFCI outlet is defective. If
a GFCI outlet trips off, then power is only lost to whatever is plugged into that
one outlet. The other GFCI outs should not be affected.
--------
Joe Gores
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jluckey(at)pacbell.net
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2023 7:22 am Post subject: Non-aero GFCI question |
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A point of nomenclature. The phrase "in series" has been used inaccurately in some posts in this thread.
A GFI should never be "in series" in an outlet circuit, that would be a gross wiring error. The proper term is daisy-chained. This is where additional outlets are installed down-stream of a GFI and the GFI provides ground fault protection to those outlets.
As I'm sure most people on this thread understand, the down-stream outlets must be connected to the proper terminals on the GFI and the are in parallel, not series.
This practice is quite common as a cost-saving maneuver by contractors. They install 1 GFI to protect a bunch of down-stream outlets instead of installing an individual GFI at each location. Thus saving a few bucks.
War Stories:
#1
I have helped many friends and family, over the years, when they call and say "the outlets in some room, usually a bathroom, or an outside outlet, don't work - but they were working yesterday". But the outlet in question is not a GFI.
I tell them to go find the single GFI, (which can turn into a scavenger hunt). Look in the garage, basement, or back bathroom and press the reset button. I always get a call back a few minutes later "you're a genius!".
#2
When I moved into my house about 6 years ago, I had a GFI (installed in the downstairs bathroom) that would mysteriously and seemingly randomly trip every couple of weeks. Weird.
Long story short (pun intended;)... My wife had placed some twinkle lights in the garden. The sprinklers would run a couple of times a week at 0400. If the twinkle lights had been left on all night, the GFI would be tripped. If not, the lights would dry out over the next day and everything worked fine. Took a while to figure that one out 
-Jeff
On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 07:06:33 PM PDT, Dave Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Glen and Skywagonguy and all,
Same here, no GFCIs in series. The subpanel is powered by a standard breaker right off the main panel. The common and two power leads are wired to the right buses. There is a dedicated ground wire tying the main panel and subpanel together. It's a little odd though that the ground wire is several sizes smaller than the other three. I don't think that would cause a problem, but I wonder how much current it would carry over its 250' run.
Today I moved the GFCI breaker to a circuit that just has a single outlet and a light, immediately adjacent to the subpanel. I replaced the GFCI breaker on the outdoor plugs with a standard breaker, and I will put a GFCI breaker at the plug I use the most. Fingers crossed, I hope to learn another thing or two.
Thanks everyone for great suggestions.
--Dave
On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 6:41 PM user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
GFCI breakers and outlets are very sensitive. And some are more sensitive
than others. And some are too sensitive. All it takes is a few milliamps
difference between the hot and neutral to trip. 50 milliamps through a
person's heart can stop it from beating. I suggest that you replace the GFCI
breaker with a standard breaker. Then replace every outlet with a GFCI
outlet with no other outlets downstream of each GFCI outlet. Now if a GFCI
outlet trips, either the load is defective or else the GFCI outlet is defective. If
a GFCI outlet trips off, then power is only lost to whatever is plugged into that
one outlet. The other GFCI outs should not be affected.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=511684#511684
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