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fly4grins(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:28 am Post subject: Heated Seats |
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Years ago I was planning on seat heaters, when someone on the list commented on how he had them in his car. I think it was a Volvo, but I'm not positive at this late date. In any case, while using the heater one day an issue arose. Within something like a minute and a half of having pulled over, his car was fully afire.
I changed my focus to improving the efficiency of my cockpit heat delivery and ventilation, as well as making a really tight canopy skirt.
FWIW-
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Voyager
Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:43 am Post subject: Heated Seats |
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I’m with you. Resistance heaters in a high flex area just seems like asking for trouble.
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Aug 24, 2023, at 2:31 PM, GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Years ago I was planning on seat heaters, when someone on the list commented on how he had them in his car. I think it was a Volvo, but I'm not positive at this late date. In any case, while using the heater one day an issue arose. Within something like a minute and a half of having pulled over, his car was fully afire.
I changed my focus to improving the efficiency of my cockpit heat delivery and ventilation, as well as making a really tight canopy skirt.
FWIW-
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jluckey(at)pacbell.net
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:10 am Post subject: Heated Seats |
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Glenn & Matt,
You mean you don't like it when your ass is literally on fire at 7500 ft at 160kts???  ( I have nightmares about in-flight fires and trying to make that emergency decent 
All kidding aside, that is a valid observation. The seat heaters are for a client's airplane and I will definitely pass this along.
On the other hand, I haven't heard of any fires caused by seat heaters in experimental aircraft. One would think that something like that would be headline news. Also, I wonder if the seat materials in an experimental are different from ones found in cars. You know, fire retardant foam used in the seat cushions? Perhaps some questions for the seat cushion manufacturer are in order.
Thanks for breaching the subject.
-Jeff
On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:35:04 AM PDT, GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Years ago I was planning on seat heaters, when someone on the list commented on how he had them in his car. I think it was a Volvo, but I'm not positive at this late date. In any case, while using the heater one day an issue arose. Within something like a minute and a half of having pulled over, his car was fully afire.
I changed my focus to improving the efficiency of my cockpit heat delivery and ventilation, as well as making a really tight canopy skirt.
FWIW-
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Voyager
Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:48 am Post subject: Heated Seats |
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In flight fire is my worst case scenario in an airplane. I think I’d rather lose a wing and have it over fairly quickly than slowly roast on the way down.
I have not heard of a significant fire hazard either with seat heaters, but to me even an infinitesimal risk isn’t worth it for a feature that is entirely optional and not even that important most of the time. And I say this as someone who lives in a fairly cold winter area. I’m focusing on insulating the cabin with aviation approved melamine and trying to seal it as well as possible to make the cabin heater as effective as possible.
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Aug 24, 2023, at 3:12 PM, Jeff Luckey <jluckey(at)pacbell.net> wrote:
Glenn & Matt,
You mean you don't like it when your ass is literally on fire at 7500 ft at 160kts??? ( I have nightmares about in-flight fires and trying to make that emergency decent
All kidding aside, that is a valid observation. The seat heaters are for a client's airplane and I will definitely pass this along.
On the other hand, I haven't heard of any fires caused by seat heaters in experimental aircraft. One would think that something like that would be headline news. Also, I wonder if the seat materials in an experimental are different from ones found in cars. You know, fire retardant foam used in the seat cushions? Perhaps some questions for the seat cushion manufacturer are in order.
Thanks for breaching the subject.
-Jeff
On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:35:04 AM PDT, GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Years ago I was planning on seat heaters, when someone on the list commented on how he had them in his car. I think it was a Volvo, but I'm not positive at this late date. In any case, while using the heater one day an issue arose. Within something like a minute and a half of having pulled over, his car was fully afire.
I changed my focus to improving the efficiency of my cockpit heat delivery and ventilation, as well as making a really tight canopy skirt.
FWIW-
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Ceengland
Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 381
Location: MS
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 7:25 am Post subject: Heated Seats |
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Obviously fire in flight is no joke. But one anecdote, with no further
info about brand, installation, etc shouldn't cause cardiac arrest.
There are anecdotes about battery fires, too, but we still use them. I'd
wager that carbon monoxide poisoning is a lot more common than seat
heater fires, but most people seem to be comfortable with using exhaust
heat muffs for heat.
Just trying to bring some perspective...
Charlie
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Voyager
Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 8:53 am Post subject: Heated Seats |
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I agree we have to look at the statistics, but I also look at physics and how I would rather not die. Wires that get flexed a lot tend to fail over time. Seat heaters tend to get flexed a lot. Physics and material science isn’t on your side with seat heaters. And, I personally find their utility small. I have them in my pickup and never use them. I have them on my motorcycle and almost never use them. For me, they add risk with virtually no reward.
I also agree with battery fires. A lead acid battery is nearly immune to catching fire. Not so with lithium chemistry. I don’t have any lithium battery in the cabin that I can’t throw out an open window. And I am even mounting my lead acid batteries forward of the firewall in my S-21 to be doubly safe.
I agree with CO poisoning which is why I am installing a sensor in my airplane that interfaces to the G3X. And I will be using heated water from my 915iS for cabin heat. Lastly, if I have to die, I’d much, much rather die from CO poisoning, hypoxia or hypothermia than from burning to death. Just my personal preference.
Matt
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Aug 26, 2023, at 11:27 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Obviously fire in flight is no joke. But one anecdote, with no further info about brand, installation, etc shouldn't cause cardiac arrest. There are anecdotes about battery fires, too, but we still use them. I'd wager that carbon monoxide poisoning is a lot more common than seat heater fires, but most people seem to be comfortable with using exhaust heat muffs for heat.
Just trying to bring some perspective...
Charlie
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This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Bill Allen
Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 42
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 1:46 pm Post subject: Heated Seats |
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I fitted a seat heater in my canard pusher (engine heat is far away) and it
is fed by a separate fused feed from the main bus, via a two position
“Hi-Low-Off” switch.
I have an on board heuristic temperature feedback loop via the P1 glutimus
maximus. If overtemping is detected there are two ways to disable power
should the CB not do this first should a fault arise.
As another anecdotal datapoint, I ran a Toyota and Mercedes Dealership for
20 years and never saw a seat heater cause a fire.
On the list of possible failure modes that can have dire consequences, fire
is right up there with structural failure, but I dont accept a seat heater
is of the same magnitude if installed in accordance with accepted practices
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Voyager
Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 2:34 pm Post subject: Heated Seats |
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That is one reason I like EA-B. Each of us can make our own risk/reward decisions. I agree that the likelihood of a seat heater causing a fire is small. I’ve ridden motorcycles since the 1960s and driven cars since the 1970s. I probably have well over 1 million miles driven as I drove OTR trucks for 5 years and have nearly 100,000 on my current BMW touring bike. I have never had an engine failure due to an ignition system or fuel injection system or even carburetor. Yet our airplanes still have dual ignitions and my Rotax has dual fuel injectors. One could make the same argument as for the seat heaters and say that dual ignitions and fuel systems is a complete waste and is akin to worrying about a fire from a seat heater, but yet we still tend to have redundancy in aviation beyond what we have in cars simply because the consequences of failure is so much higher even if the probability of failure is very low.
It is the old risk engineering equation, Risk = Probability x Consequence.
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Aug 26, 2023, at 5:47 PM, Bill Allen <billallensworld(at)gmail.com> wrote:
I fitted a seat heater in my canard pusher (engine heat is far away) and it is fed by a separate fused feed from the main bus, via a two position “Hi-Low-Off” switch.
I have an on board heuristic temperature feedback loop via the P1 glutimus maximus. If overtemping is detected there are two ways to disable power should the CB not do this first should a fault arise.
As another anecdotal datapoint, I ran a Toyota and Mercedes Dealership for 20 years and never saw a seat heater cause a fire.
On the list of possible failure modes that can have dire consequences, fire is right up there with structural failure, but I dont accept a seat heater is of the same magnitude if installed in accordance with accepted practices.
Bill Allen
On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 at 20:32, GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com (fly4grins(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Years ago I was planning on seat heaters, when someone on the list commented on how he had them in his car. I think it was a Volvo, but I'm not positive at this late date. In any case, while using the heater one day an issue arose. Within something like a minute and a half of having pulled over, his car was fully afire.
I changed my focus to improving the efficiency of my cockpit heat delivery and ventilation, as well as making a really tight canopy skirt.
FWIW-
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Voyager
Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 2:34 pm Post subject: Heated Seats |
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That is one reason I like EA-B. Each of us can make our own risk/reward decisions. I agree that the likelihood of a seat heater causing a fire is small. I’ve ridden motorcycles since the 1960s and driven cars since the 1970s. I probably have well over 1 million miles driven as I drove OTR trucks for 5 years and have nearly 100,000 on my current BMW touring bike. I have never had an engine failure due to an ignition system or fuel injection system or even carburetor. Yet our airplanes still have dual ignitions and my Rotax has dual fuel injectors. One could make the same argument as for the seat heaters and say that dual ignitions and fuel systems is a complete waste and is akin to worrying about a fire from a seat heater, but yet we still tend to have redundancy in aviation beyond what we have in cars simply because the consequences of failure is so much higher even if the probability of failure is very low.
It is the old risk equation of Risk = Probability x Consequence.
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Aug 26, 2023, at 5:47 PM, Bill Allen <billallensworld(at)gmail.com> wrote:
I fitted a seat heater in my canard pusher (engine heat is far away) and it is fed by a separate fused feed from the main bus, via a two position “Hi-Low-Off” switch.
I have an on board heuristic temperature feedback loop via the P1 glutimus maximus. If overtemping is detected there are two ways to disable power should the CB not do this first should a fault arise.
As another anecdotal datapoint, I ran a Toyota and Mercedes Dealership for 20 years and never saw a seat heater cause a fire.
On the list of possible failure modes that can have dire consequences, fire is right up there with structural failure, but I dont accept a seat heater is of the same magnitude if installed in accordance with accepted practices.
Bill Allen
On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 at 20:32, GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com (fly4grins(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Years ago I was planning on seat heaters, when someone on the list commented on how he had them in his car. I think it was a Volvo, but I'm not positive at this late date. In any case, while using the heater one day an issue arose. Within something like a minute and a half of having pulled over, his car was fully afire.
I changed my focus to improving the efficiency of my cockpit heat delivery and ventilation, as well as making a really tight canopy skirt.
FWIW-
|
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Sent from Gmail Mobile
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Ceengland
Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 381
Location: MS
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:26 pm Post subject: Heated Seats |
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Given that the better seat heaters these days use carbon fiber strips (not wire) for heating elements, it would certainly seem that the biggest risk is in the wiring installation & controller.
On 8/26/2023 4:45 PM, Bill Allen wrote:
| Quote: | I fitted a seat heater in my canard pusher (engine heat is far away) and it is fed by a separate fused feed from the main bus, via a two position “Hi-Low-Off” switch.
I have an on board heuristic temperature feedback loop via the P1 glutimus maximus. If overtemping is detected there are two ways to disable power should the CB not do this first should a fault arise.
As another anecdotal datapoint, I ran a Toyota and Mercedes Dealership for 20 years and never saw a seat heater cause a fire.
On the list of possible failure modes that can have dire consequences, fire is right up there with structural failure, but I dont accept a seat heater is of the same magnitude if installed in accordance with accepted practices.
Bill Allen
On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 at 20:32, GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com (fly4grins(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Years ago I was planning on seat heaters, when someone on the list commented on how he had them in his car. I think it was a Volvo, but I'm not positive at this late date. In any case, while using the heater one day an issue arose. Within something like a minute and a half of having pulled over, his car was fully afire.
I changed my focus to improving the efficiency of my cockpit heat delivery and ventilation, as well as making a really tight canopy skirt.
FWIW-
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Sent from Gmail Mobile
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