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ronaldcox

Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 38

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 5:28 pm Post subject: WAGO Connectors in OBAM Aircraft?

Anyone have an opinion (preferably with some personal experience) about using WAGO connectors on OBAM aircraft?

They’re UL certified now for higher voltage work, but I’m wondering if they might be a safe and convenient solution for some of those connections in an aircraft that may need to be disconnected at some point in the future. Seems like they might be a good alternative for things that need multiple connections to one point (Nav lights, etc.)

I know some of us are very resistant to anything new, but these things have been used for decades in Europe, and I wondered if anyone has any reason one might not want to use them in low amperage connections, as most of our are.

They’re rated at 20Amps, and I’ve seen them tested online at 60 without causing any temp rise high enough to concern me.

What do you all think?

Ron

_________________
Ron Cox
Glasair Super II F/T
Under Construction at C77 - Still just about to fly!

mikepienaar09(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 5:55 pm Post subject: WAGO Connectors in OBAM Aircraft?

I used them where I wanted to be able to disconnect gauges, nothing mission critical.Just seemed to be an easy solution



On Thu., Mar. 9, 2023, 5:30 p.m. Ron Cox, <flyboyron(at)gmail.com (flyboyron(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Anyone have an opinion (preferably with some personal experience) about using WAGO connectors on OBAM aircraft?

They’re UL certified now for higher voltage work, but I’m wondering if they might be a safe and convenient solution for some of those connections in an aircraft that may need to be disconnected at some point in the future. Seems like they might be a good alternative for things that need multiple connections to one point (Nav lights, etc.)

I know some of us are very resistant to anything new, but these things have been used for decades in Europe, and I wondered if anyone has any reason one might not want to use them in low amperage connections, as most of our are.

They’re rated at 20Amps, and I’ve seen them tested online at 60 without causing any temp rise high enough to concern me.

What do you all think?

Ron

Voyager

Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Posts: 77

Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 4:34 am Post subject: WAGO Connectors in OBAM Aircraft?

I’ve wondered the same, but building wiring is a fair bit different than auto/aviation wiring.  Wire nuts are used a lot in American homes, but you don’t see them in cars.  The main reason is that cars tend to move and vibrate a lot and homes generally don’t (earthquakes being the exception).  Wire nuts won’t take sustained vibration.  Wago connectors may withstand vibration, but I doubt they have been tested for that.  I am not aware of any auto maker, even in Europe, that uses Wago connectors in a car or truck.  If I did, I would be much more inclined to use one in an airplane.



Having said that, if you airplane is an experimental, then you can use them if you wish and let us know how they work out.  If the toggle handle will stay closed after a few hundred hours of vibration, then all is probably fine.



Matt



Sent from my iPad



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Mar 9, 2023, at 8:30 PM, Ron Cox <flyboyron(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 Anyone have an opinion (preferably with some personal experience) about using WAGO connectors on OBAM aircraft?

 

 They’re UL certified now for higher voltage work, but I’m wondering if they might be a safe and convenient solution for some of those connections in an aircraft that may need to be disconnected at some point in the future. Seems like they might be a good alternative for things that need multiple connections to one point (Nav lights, etc.)

 

 I know some of us are very resistant to anything new, but these things have been used for decades in Europe, and I wondered if anyone has any reason one might not want to use them in low amperage connections, as most of our are.

 

 They’re rated at 20Amps, and I’ve seen them tested online at 60 without causing any temp rise high enough to concern me.

 

 What do you all think?

 

 Ron

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2871

Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:01 am Post subject: WAGO Connectors in OBAM Aircraft?

My take is a little different. I think just because we are OBAM doesn't mean we shouldn't try to stick with standards approved components.  There are some exceptions when we may be able to do things to an even higher standard, but for the most part I want my plane to be at or above the standards used for certified planes, and I'd be wary of connectors that aren't typically used with aircraft wire. In flight fires are possibly the worst thing we can experience while flying as well, so if you were to use them, I would stick to the absolute lowest current circuits.

You don't need to become a statistic by testing new wire connection strategies for aircraft use, when so many other methods and types are available.

I recently found in my house, a circuit where the previous owner had 2 ends of 12 gauge wire that were too short to connect together in a box, secured, so he used 3 yellow crimp butt splices and wrapped it in electrical tape. When I found that I was pissed that they would endanger lives like that.  Especially since the reason I found it was that I found no ground at many outlets on a branch circuit because the ground had broke at the butt splice.  Wrong type of connects for the type of wiring.   If you saw a wire nut in an airplane you'd think the person who did it was nuts.   Personally I want any inspector to be able to look at my wiring and not leave with any negative thoughts.

Tim

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Mar 10, 2023, at 6:39 AM, Matthew S. Whiting <m.whiting(at)frontier.com> wrote:

 I’ve wondered the same, but building wiring is a fair bit different than auto/aviation wiring.  Wire nuts are used a lot in American homes, but you don’t see them in cars.  The main reason is that cars tend to move and vibrate a lot and homes generally don’t (earthquakes being the exception).  Wire nuts won’t take sustained vibration.  Wago connectors may withstand vibration, but I doubt they have been tested for that.  I am not aware of any auto maker, even in Europe, that uses Wago connectors in a car or truck.  If I did, I would be much more inclined to use one in an airplane.

 Having said that, if you airplane is an experimental, then you can use them if you wish and let us know how they work out.  If the toggle handle will stay closed after a few hundred hours of vibration, then all is probably fine.

 Matt

 Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 9, 2023, at 8:30 PM, Ron Cox <flyboyron(at)gmail.com> wrote:

> 

> 

> Anyone have an opinion (preferably with some personal experience) about using WAGO connectors on OBAM aircraft?

> 

> They’re UL certified now for higher voltage work, but I’m wondering if they might be a safe and convenient solution for some of those connections in an aircraft that may need to be disconnected at some point in the future. Seems like they might be a good alternative for things that need multiple connections to one point (Nav lights, etc.)

> 

> I know some of us are very resistant to anything new, but these things have been used for decades in Europe, and I wondered if anyone has any reason one might not want to use them in low amperage connections, as most of our are.

> 

> They’re rated at 20Amps, and I’ve seen them tested online at 60 without causing any temp rise high enough to concern me.

> 

> What do you all think?

> 

> Ron

rv8iator

Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: Newberg, OR

Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:59 am Post subject: WAGO Connectors in OBAM Aircraft?

..wagos or for that matter wire nuts do not form a gas tight connection

with the conductor(s).  Pidg crimp connectors do.



Chris Stone

RV-8 and others



On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 4:36 AM Matthew S. Whiting <m.whiting(at)frontier.com>

wrote:



[quote] 

 m.whiting(at)frontier.com>



 I’ve wondered the same, but building wiring is a fair bit different than

 auto/aviation wiring.  Wire nuts are used a lot in American homes, but you

 don’t see them in cars.  The main reason is that cars tend to move and

 vibrate a lot and homes generally don’t (earthquakes being the exception).

 Wire nuts won’t take sustained vibration.  Wago connectors may withstand

 vibration, but I doubt they have been tested for that.  I am not aware of

 any auto maker, even in Europe, that uses Wago connectors in a car or

 truck.  If I did, I would be much more inclined to use one in an airplane

_________________
C. Stone (RV8iator)

Voyager

Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Posts: 77

Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 7:57 am Post subject: WAGO Connectors in OBAM Aircraft?

That is the beauty of E-AB.  We all get to make the choice that works for us.  If we all stick to only those things that are standardized and approved, then by definition we make no progress.  One of my favorite quotes during my engineering career was “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.  Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” - George Bernard Shaw.

Would I personally use a Wago in my airplane?  Probably not, but not because I have significant fear of it failing.  If I am making a connection that is permanent, I will use appropriate crimped or soldered connections depending on the situation.  If I am making a connection that likely needs to be broken at some point, I will use an appropriate connector such as Molex, D-shell, Weatherpack, etc.  I just don’t see many places on an airplane where a Wago style connection offers significant utility.

At my local Home Depot, a two terminal Wago (a splice basically) connector costs either 67 cents in quantities of 10 or 30 cents in quantity of 100.  This is slightly cheaper than good quality butt connectors at say SteinAir which are 95 cents each with no quantity discount.  So, some cost advantage for the high volume Wago parts, but not that much. There is the advantage of not needing a tool for the Wagos, but I already have crimp tools so that isn’t a factor for me.  I just prefer the permanence of a crimped splice or the convenience of a connector over the in-between ground of a Wago which I will describe as semi-permanent and likely not tested for vibration tolerance as is the case with most connectors and crimps.

Matt

Sent from my iPad

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Mar 10, 2023, at 9:08 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> wrote:

 My take is a little different. I think just because we are OBAM doesn't mean we shouldn't try to stick with standards approved components.  There are some exceptions when we may be able to do things to an even higher standard, but for the most part I want my plane to be at or above the standards used for certified planes, and I'd be wary of connectors that aren't typically used with aircraft wire. In flight fires are possibly the worst thing we can experience while flying as well, so if you were to use them, I would stick to the absolute lowest current circuits.

 You don't need to become a statistic by testing new wire connection strategies for aircraft use, when so many other methods and types are available.

 I recently found in my house, a circuit where the previous owner had 2 ends of 12 gauge wire that were too short to connect together in a box, secured, so he used 3 yellow crimp butt splices and wrapped it in electrical tape. When I found that I was pissed that they would endanger lives like that.  Especially since the reason I found it was that I found no ground at many outlets on a branch circuit because the ground had broke at the butt splice.  Wrong type of connects for the type of wiring.   If you saw a wire nut in an airplane you'd think the person who did it was nuts.   Personally I want any inspector to be able to look at my wiring and not leave with any negative thoughts.

 Tim

> On Mar 10, 2023, at 6:39 AM, Matthew S. Whiting <m.whiting(at)frontier.com> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> I’ve wondered the same, but building wiring is a fair bit different than auto/aviation wiring.  Wire nuts are used a lot in American homes, but you don’t see them in cars.  The main reason is that cars tend to move and vibrate a lot and homes generally don’t (earthquakes being the exception).  Wire nuts won’t take sustained vibration.  Wago connectors may withstand vibration, but I doubt they have been tested for that.  I am not aware of any auto maker, even in Europe, that uses Wago connectors in a car or truck.  If I did, I would be much more inclined to use one in an airplane.

> 

> Having said that, if you airplane is an experimental, then you can use them if you wish and let us know how they work out.  If the toggle handle will stay closed after a few hundred hours of vibration, then all is probably fine.

> 

> Matt

> 

> Sent from my iPad

> 

>>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 8:30 PM, Ron Cox <flyboyron(at)gmail.com> wrote:

>> 

>> 

>> Anyone have an opinion (preferably with some personal experience) about using WAGO connectors on OBAM aircraft?

>> 

>> They’re UL certified now for higher voltage work, but I’m wondering if they might be a safe and convenient solution for some of those connections in an aircraft that may need to be disconnected at some point in the future. Seems like they might be a good alternative for things that need multiple connections to one point (Nav lights, etc.)

>> 

>> I know some of us are very resistant to anything new, but these things have been used for decades in Europe, and I wondered if anyone has any reason one might not want to use them in low amperage connections, as most of our are.

>> 

>> They’re rated at 20Amps, and I’ve seen them tested online at 60 without causing any temp rise high enough to concern me.

>> 

>> What do you all think?

>> 

>> Ron

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

werner schneider

Joined: 24 May 2021
Posts: 56

Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:43 am Post subject: WAGO Connectors in OBAM Aircraft?

Ron,

Wago connectors are mostly used with solid wires (s in the name) thers

are few for stranded wires (str). But they are really only used in home

installations and I hade even there a few experience which I rather

would have avoided.

I would oppose to use them in any moving vehicle and never would board

an airplane done with ist. They are not designed for that environment.

Cheers Werner

On 10.03.2023 16:56, Matthew S. Whiting wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 That is the beauty of E-AB.  We all get to make the choice that works for us.  If we all stick to only those things that are standardized and approved, then by definition we make no progress.  One of my favorite quotes during my engineering career was “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.  Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” - George Bernard Shaw.

 Would I personally use a Wago in my airplane?  Probably not, but not because I have significant fear of it failing.  If I am making a connection that is permanent, I will use appropriate crimped or soldered connections depending on the situation.  If I am making a connection that likely needs to be broken at some point, I will use an appropriate connector such as Molex, D-shell, Weatherpack, etc.  I just don’t see many places on an airplane where a Wago style connection offers significant utility.

 At my local Home Depot, a two terminal Wago (a splice basically) connector costs either 67 cents in quantities of 10 or 30 cents in quantity of 100.  This is slightly cheaper than good quality butt connectors at say SteinAir which are 95 cents each with no quantity discount.  So, some cost advantage for the high volume Wago parts, but not that much. There is the advantage of not needing a tool for the Wagos, but I already have crimp tools so that isn’t a factor for me.  I just prefer the permanence of a crimped splice or the convenience of a connector over the in-between ground of a Wago which I will describe as semi-permanent and likely not tested for vibration tolerance as is the case with most connectors and crimps.

 Matt

 Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 10, 2023, at 9:08 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> wrote:

>

> 

>

> My take is a little different. I think just because we are OBAM doesn't mean we shouldn't try to stick with standards approved components.  There are some exceptions when we may be able to do things to an even higher standard, but for the most part I want my plane to be at or above the standards used for certified planes, and I'd be wary of connectors that aren't typically used with aircraft wire. In flight fires are possibly the worst thing we can experience while flying as well, so if you were to use them, I would stick to the absolute lowest current circuits.

> You don't need to become a statistic by testing new wire connection strategies for aircraft use, when so many other methods and types are available.

>

> I recently found in my house, a circuit where the previous owner had 2 ends of 12 gauge wire that were too short to connect together in a box, secured, so he used 3 yellow crimp butt splices and wrapped it in electrical tape. When I found that I was pissed that they would endanger lives like that.  Especially since the reason I found it was that I found no ground at many outlets on a branch circuit because the ground had broke at the butt splice.  Wrong type of connects for the type of wiring.   If you saw a wire nut in an airplane you'd think the person who did it was nuts.   Personally I want any inspector to be able to look at my wiring and not leave with any negative thoughts.

>

> Tim

>

>> On Mar 10, 2023, at 6:39 AM, Matthew S. Whiting <m.whiting(at)frontier.com> wrote:

>>

>> 

>>

>> I’ve wondered the same, but building wiring is a fair bit different than auto/aviation wiring.  Wire nuts are used a lot in American homes, but you don’t see them in cars.  The main reason is that cars tend to move and vibrate a lot and homes generally don’t (earthquakes being the exception).  Wire nuts won’t take sustained vibration.  Wago connectors may withstand vibration, but I doubt they have been tested for that.  I am not aware of any auto maker, even in Europe, that uses Wago connectors in a car or truck.  If I did, I would be much more inclined to use one in an airplane.

>>

>> Having said that, if you airplane is an experimental, then you can use them if you wish and let us know how they work out.  If the toggle handle will stay closed after a few hundred hours of vibration, then all is probably fine.

>>

>> Matt

>>

>> Sent from my iPad

>>

>>>> On Mar 9, 2023, at 8:30 PM, Ron Cox <flyboyron(at)gmail.com> wrote:

>>> 

>>> Anyone have an opinion (preferably with some personal experience) about using WAGO connectors on OBAM aircraft?

>>>

>>> They’re UL certified now for higher voltage work, but I’m wondering if they might be a safe and convenient solution for some of those connections in an aircraft that may need to be disconnected at some point in the future. Seems like they might be a good alternative for things that need multiple connections to one point (Nav lights, etc.)

>>>

>>> I know some of us are very resistant to anything new, but these things have been used for decades in Europe, and I wondered if anyone has any reason one might not want to use them in low amperage connections, as most of our are.

>>>

>>> They’re rated at 20Amps, and I’ve seen them tested online at 60 without causing any temp rise high enough to concern me.

>>>

>>> What do you all think?

>>>

>>> Ron

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

>

Eric Page

Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 242

Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: WAGO Connectors in OBAM Aircraft?

One significant problem with WAGO and similar connectors is that they're designed for solid conductors, so they have a sharp tang inside that bites into the conductor to prevent pull-out.  That sharp tang is very good at cutting the tiny wires that make up stranded wire.



To make connections that you may want to take apart later, Bob has demonstrated the use of individual D-Sub pins and sockets, held together inside heat shrink tubing.  For joining multiple wires together, use a D-Sub connector pair, where one of them is a solder-cup style with the cups bussed together with soldered wire.



Another good option is the Amphenol ATM series connectors.  They're an exact duplicate (every part is interchangeable) of the Deutsch DTM series (widely used in the automotive world) but at about half the price.  Contacts are available as solid machine-turned or stamped-and-formed.  If you have a crimp tool for D-Sub pins, it will crimp Size 20 contacts for ATM/DTM connectors.



For higher current circuits, the Amphenol AT duplicates Deutsch DT and the Amphenol ATP duplicates Deutsch DTP.



ATM/DTM: 7A per contact

AT/DT: 13A per contact

ATP/DTP: 25A per contact



Amphenol ATM: https://www.amphenol-sine.com/atm-series

Amphenol AT: https://www.amphenol-sine.com/at-series

Amphenol ATP: https://www.amphenol-sine.com/atp-series

ronaldcox

Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 38

Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2023 10:25 am Post subject: Re: WAGO Connectors in OBAM Aircraft?

Thanks to you all for the thoughtful replies. I suspected they would lean in this direction (against using them), but I'm never sorry for having gotten input from the bright folks here.



(BTW, the newer WAGOs are rated for stranded AND solid conductors, but I can still see downsides to their use, especially as to the vibration issues.) 



I'm aware of, and have used, many of Bob's excellent suggestions for such connections. I just wanted to see what the current thinking was. I often learn of new techniques here, and don't like to miss out on safe, convenient alternatives. 



I'll use the more traditional connectors for my airplane for just the reasons cited here.



Thanks again for the input, all.



Rin

_________________
Ron Cox
Glasair Super II F/T
Under Construction at C77 - Still just about to fly!

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:23 am Post subject: WAGO Connectors in OBAM Aircraft?

At 01:25 PM 3/11/2023, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "ronaldcox" <flyboyron(at)gmail.com>



 Thanks to you all for the thoughtful replies.

 I suspected they would lean in this direction

 (against using them), but I'm never sorry

 for having gotten input from the bright folks here. 	


    You folks done good. To recap for any relatively

    new members of the List, I'll re-iterate the

    three pillars of longevity and performance

    in made up conductor joints:



    GAS TIGHTNESS between conductive elements of

    the power pathway. This is best achieved with

    PRESSURE that exceeds the compressive strength

    of the joined materials. Thus two materials

    become essentially one thus excluding the

    primary threats to joint integrity - moisture

    and oxygen.  This would the 'wire grip' in

    PIDG style crimp.



    MECHANICAL support of materials subject to

    cracking under vibration at the stress risers.

    I.e. the transition from stranded to solid at

    the ends/edges of the gas-tight interface.

    This would be the 'insulation-grip' on a PIDG

    style terminal.



  https://tinyurl.com/jh4af75h



  https://tinyurl.com/j42nf3w2



    PROTECTION FROM THE ENVIRONMENT calls for

    mitigating threats from environmental

    effects of water, salt, corrosive gasses,

    solvents, etc.  Examples of this are

    illustrated with incorporation of various

    sealing techniques where called for in

    the most stressful environs.



    

    It's always good to be skeptical of new

    processes until the details are sorted

    and confirmed. Poor information is often

    delivered with good intentions. Here's

    an article that appeared in Sport Aviation

    a few years back:



  https://tinyurl.com/2y845k35



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  I often learn of new techniques here, and don't like

 to miss out on safe, convenient alternatives. 	


   I've exploited the convenience of the WAGO

   style connectors (of which there are many

   examples out there). But only on relatively

   low current house and appliance wiring.

   Lighting branches, ceiling fans, etc. but

   never where there's a risk of moisture/condensation

   ingress.



   That same spring-barb, high-pressure

   connection has been around for decades.

   First recall seeing it in strip-n-poke

   termination on wall receptacles and switches.

   In years since, I think I've seen the same

   technology on other small wiring components.

   It's noteworthy that the entry hole in

   receptacles will only permit termination of

   14awg wire . . . 12AWG wire won't go in.



  	  Quote: 	
		  Thanks again for the input, all. 	


   Thank YOU for asking and taking the time to

   digest and understand. Share your knowledge

   at every opportunity.



 

   Bob . . .



                    //// 

                   (o o) 

    ===========o00o=(_)=o00o========= 

    < Go ahead, make my day . . .   > 

    < show me where I'm wrong.      > 

    =================================

  

    In the interest of creative evolution

    of the-best-we-know-how-to-do based

    on physics and good practice.

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