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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 881
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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 Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: Flap Controller |
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| bwestfall wrote: | Many people install a Ray Allen POS-12 position sensor attached somewhere on
a flap bar to measure the extension points and report to your efis. I did
this but cannot find a picture. The POS-12 is connected to my VP-X which
controls flap movement. Basically I used a short piece of hinge material
riveted to the rear spar bulkhead assembly on one end and an adel clamp
around the flap torque tube with a small piece of angle bracket attaching to
the other end. This is all under the passenger side flap torque tube cover
in the rear footwell on my plane. It just barely has enough travel to work.
It has been mostly reliable but occasionally I have to hit the down switch
more than once to get it to move down.
-Ben
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If you think about exactly where (in rotation) you attach the POS sensor to the torque tube, you can maximize the sensitivity to the smallest movement (-3 to zero flaps). Also, I've trained myself to hold the switch down for a 1/2 a second or a bit longer. A very quick push and release is not long enough for the flap sensor to move off the "bump" in the position sensing rigid wire. I suppose a small electronic timer could fix this, but I don't want to add any complexity.
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Bob Turner
RV-10 QB |
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Dave Saylor
Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 207
Location: GILROY, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:21 pm Post subject: Flap Controller |
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| Quote: |
I've trained myself to hod the switch down for a 1/2 a second or a bit longer. |
Same here. I learned to do a deliberate one-count at each position.Â
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Lenny Iszak
Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:33 pm Post subject: Flap Controller |
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It’s good to have automatic position control. At night you can’t see the flaps, so you’d be counting mississippis.  In a takeoff emergency you don’t have time to fiddle with the flaps. Best lift/drag ratio is around 15 degrees of flaps on the RV-10. Don’t think you’ll be able to move it exactly there in an emergency. With a positioner one click and you’re there.
I bought the Showplanes version (not from Van’s), but wasn’t thrilled with the microswitch based approach. Too many points of failure for my taste. I have an Arduino based flap controller that’s been working great for 900+ hours.Â
Btw, TCW now sells a flap controller that has a positioning feature without a position sensor and it’s got Vfe protection too. If I was to do it again, I’d install that now.
https://www.tcwtech.com/product/intelligent-flap-controller/
Lenny
On Jan 30, 2023 at 6:58:58 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>
bwestfall wrote:
| Quote: | Many people install a Ray Allen POS-12 position sensor attached somewhere on
a flap bar to measure the extension points and report to your efis. I did
this but cannot find a picture. The POS-12 is connected to my VP-X which
controls flap movement. Basically I used a short piece of hinge material
riveted to the rear spar bulkhead assembly on one end and an adel clamp
around the flap torque tube with a small piece of angle bracket attaching to
the other end. This is all under the passenger side flap torque tube cover
in the rear footwell on my plane. It just barely has enough travel to work.
It has been mostly reliable but occasionally I have to hit the down switch
more than once to get it to move down.
-Ben
--
|
If you think about exactly where (in rotation) you attach the POS sensor to the torque tube, you can maximize the sensitivity to the smallest movement (-3 to zero flaps). Also, I've trained myself to hod the switch down for a 1/2 a second or a bit longer. A very quick push and release is not long enough for the flap sensor to move off the "bump" in the position sensing rigid wire. I suppose a small electronic timer could fix this, but I don't want to add any complexity.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
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| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Lenny Iszak
Palm City, FL
2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 500 hrs |
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 881
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: Flap Controller |
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| Lenny Iszak wrote: | . Best lift/drag ratio is around 15 degrees of flaps on the RV-10.
Lenny
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Do you have a reference or data to back up this assertion? If true, we should all be practicing engine-out best glide with flaps 15.
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Bob Turner
RV-10 QB |
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Lenny Iszak
Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:33 am Post subject: Flap Controller |
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We should all be practicing engine out best glides with flaps 15 or more, because when the engine actually quits it won’t have the residual thrust and glide performance will be closer if you simulate it with flaps 15. On an RV-4 that we did engine out testing in it took flaps 40 to match the engine out glide performance. Very different airplane, but unfortunately I don’t have the cojones to stop the engine and see what happens in my -10.
However, that’s not what I was talking about. With engine out on takeoff you need to be turning. Your turn radius is way too wide if you fly best glide speed (especially at full gross weight). Also way too fast and you risk overshooting the runway. Flaps 15 works out much better. Higher stall margin, tighter turn radius, better lift/drag, slower speed.
To support my Cl/Cd assertion I have Xfoil plots for the RV-10 wing, and also got drag polars from several flight tests.
Either way, I’m sticking to my position that automatic flap positioning is good to have. 🙂 Turning in a 45 degree bank in a high anxiety situation over the trees while riding the stall warning doesn’t leave much attention to fiddling with flaps.
Lenny
On Jan 30, 2023 at 11:23:33 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:
| Quote: | Do you have a reference or data to back up this assertion? If true, we should all be practicing engine-out best glide with flaps 15.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB |
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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_________________
Lenny Iszak
Palm City, FL
2014 RV-10, N311LZ - 500 hrs |
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