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Z101 has been released under Rev A

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glastar(at)gmx.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:37 am Post subject: Z101 has been released under Rev A

Dear Bob,



is the Z101 source as well available as dwg file so I can taylor it to 

my new project (SDS/emag/no brownout).



Thanks a lot for your help, BTW will the next edition of your book 

include these new diagrams? Would love to update my edition 10 (which 

was still paper Â  to a new edition with all your updates.



Cheers Werner (Glastar Z11 and now RV-10 with Z101)



On 26.05.2020 02:57, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>



 I've combed Z101 several times and I think

 the major 'nits' have been eliminated. I removed

 'preliminary' status and published as Rev -A-

 at:



 https://tinyurl.com/yavoutjh



 Doesn't mean it's 'carved in stone' . . . just

 ready for some serious builder consideration.

 Error call outs and suggestions always welcome.

 Â  Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:56 am Post subject: Z101 has been released under Rev A

At 07:34 AM 9/6/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>



 Dear Bob,



 is the Z101 source as well available as dwg file so I can taylor it to my new project (SDS/emag/no brownout). 	


   Yes, both files of RevB are posted.



   The next upgrade to the Z-Figures will probably

   'retire' most if not all of the legacy figures

   applicable to aircraft engines (lyc, cont). Z101

   iterations cover all previous variations on the

   theme.



 

 

   Bob . . .

glastar(at)gmx.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:16 pm Post subject: Z101 has been released under Rev A

Thanks Bob,



I downloaded the 101B but my Intellicad says that it was created with an

unsupported version of Autocad and can not open it.



Any chance you can save a version with an older Autocad version



Z14P from 2013 still works up to Z34 ( 11/2014) from Z11P (2016 upwards

it fails)



Thanks Werner



On 07.09.2020 15:54, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   At 07:34 AM 9/6/2020, you wrote:

> 

> <glastar(at)gmx.net>

>

> Dear Bob,

>

> is the Z101 source as well available as dwg file so I can taylor it to

> my new project (SDS/emag/no brownout).



    Yes, both files of RevB are posted.



    The next upgrade to the Z-Figures will probably

    'retire' most if not all of the legacy figures

    applicable to aircraft engines (lyc, cont). Z101

    iterations cover all previous variations on the

    theme.

    Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:54 pm Post subject: Z101 has been released under Rev A

At 04:11 PM 9/7/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net>



 Thanks Bob,



 I downloaded the 101B but my Intellicad says that it was created with an

 unsupported version of Autocad and can not open it.



 Any chance you can save a version with an older Autocad version 	




  try this one



 

 [url=http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/ACAD_Architecture_Dwgs/Z101B(R14).dwg] http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/ACAD_Architecture_Dwgs/Z101B(R14).dwg[/url] 



 



 

   Bob . . .

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:01 pm Post subject: Z101 has been released under Rev A

Werner, Try the free trial versionÂ of Draftsjght.Â  It works all rheÂ way back to Acad 13.



RickÂ 

  	          		Virus-free. www.avg.com 		 	 [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2][/url]



On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 4:21 PM Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)>

 

 Thanks Bob,

 

 I downloaded the 101B but my Intellicad says that it was created with an

 unsupported version of Autocad and can not open it.

 

 Any chance you can save a version with an older Autocad version

 

 Z14P from 2013 still works up to Z34 ( 11/2014) from Z11P (2016 upwards

 it fails)

 

 Thanks Werner

 

 On 07.09.2020 15:54, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 > At 07:34 AM 9/6/2020, you wrote:

 >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Werner Schneider

 >> <glastar(at)gmx.net (glastar(at)gmx.net)>

 >>

 >> Dear Bob,

 >>

 >> is the Z101 source as well available as dwg file so I can taylor it to

 >> my new project (SDS/emag/no brownout).

 >

 >Â  Â  Yes, both files of RevB are posted.

 >

 >Â  Â  The next upgrade to the Z-Figures will probably

 >Â  Â  'retire' most if not all of the legacy figures

 >Â  Â  applicable to aircraft engines (lyc, cont). Z101

 >Â  Â  iterations cover all previous variations on the

 >Â  Â  theme.

 >

 >

 >Â  Â  Bob . . .

 >

 

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 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

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 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 

â€œBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.â€ Â Â Groucho Marx

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glastar(at)gmx.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:20 pm Post subject: Z101 has been released under Rev A

Woked perfectly, many thanks!!



Cheers Werner



On 08.09.2020 00:49, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   At 04:11 PM 9/7/2020, you wrote:

> 

> <glastar(at)gmx.net>

>

> Thanks Bob,

>

> I downloaded the 101B but my Intellicad says that it was created with an

> unsupported version of Autocad and can not open it.

>

> Any chance you can save a version with an older Autocad version

  try this one

 http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/ACAD_Architecture_Dwgs/Z101B(R14).dwg



   Bob . . .

glastar(at)gmx.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:22 pm Post subject: Z101 has been released under Rev A

Thanks Richard, might give it a try, it's just after 17 years and fluent

working with Intellicad 



Cheers Werner



On 08.09.2020 01:58, Richard Girard wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Werner, Try the free trial versionÂ of Draftsjght. It works all rheÂ way

 back to Acad 13.



 Rick



 <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>

 	Virus-free. www.avg.com

 <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>



 On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 4:21 PM Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net

 <mailto:glastar(at)gmx.net>> wrote:



     

     <glastar(at)gmx.net <mailto:glastar(at)gmx.net>>



     Thanks Bob,



     I downloaded the 101B but my Intellicad says that it was created

     with an

     unsupported version of Autocad and can not open it.



     Any chance you can save a version with an older Autocad version



     Z14P from 2013 still works up to Z34 ( 11/2014) from Z11P (2016

     upwards

     it fails)



     Thanks Werner



     On 07.09.2020 15:54, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

     > At 07:34 AM 9/6/2020, you wrote:

     >> 

     >> <glastar(at)gmx.net <mailto:glastar(at)gmx.net>>

     >>

     >> Dear Bob,

     >>

     >> is the Z101 source as well available as dwg file so I can

     taylor it to

     >> my new project (SDS/emag/no brownout).

     >

     >Â  Â  Yes, both files of RevB are posted.

     >

     >Â  Â  The next upgrade to the Z-Figures will probably

     >Â  Â  'retire' most if not all of the legacy figures

     >Â  Â  applicable to aircraft engines (lyc, cont). Z101

     >Â  Â  iterations cover all previous variations on the

     >Â  Â  theme.

     >

     >

     >Â  Â  Bob . . .

     >



     ===========

     -

     Electric-List" rel="noreferrer"

     target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

     ===========

     FORUMS -

     eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

     ===========

     WIKI -

     errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

     ===========

     b Site -

     Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

     rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

     ===========



 --

   â€œBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.â€ Groucho

   Marx <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>

wsimpso1

Joined: 04 Nov 2018
Posts: 27
Location: Saline MI

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:27 am Post subject: Re: Z101 has been released under Rev A

I was following along loosely on the Z101, but then a chapter colleague asked me to look in some detail at it and check a few things. We discovered the same issues... 



Depending upon variant, start sequence involves:

1 - Close Cl Del or Aux Bus switch;

2 - Program route, obtain clearance, etc;

3 - Close DC Master switch;

4 - Open Cl Del or Aux Bus switch;

5 - Start engine



This allows use of the Cl Del/Brownout Bus continuously. It also appears to have a couple drawbacks. Please check us on this:



If you open the Cl Del or Aux Bus switch before closing the DC Master switch, your route evaporates during start up. Sounds like a good reason to checklist this exact sequence and rehearse it a little...



Once you are flying, something causes you to need to drop back to min electrical power in the airplane. This could be anything from alternator/regulator faults to an electrical fire. Your sequence to keep the EFIS, attitude reference, and #1 Com online (very important if IMC or smoke is obscuring view outside) must be to turn on the Cl Del or Aux Bus before turning off the DC Master. Do them out of order and your ability to keep the airplane upright and heading toward a safe spot to put down just evaporated until you get through the reboots and some scratching for the center freq. So, using this scheme seems to drive us to checklist this exact sequence too, and rehearse it a bunch.



If I was more clever I suppose I could come up with a way to prevent inadvertent shut down of the Clearance/Brownout Bus.  Anybody have any way to help out our very human pilot from these very human failures?



Billski

Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 378
Location: MS

Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 5:39 pm Post subject: Z101 has been released under Rev A

On 8/9/2021 9:28 AM, wsimpso1 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I was following along loosely on the Z101, but then a chapter colleague asked me to look in some detail at it and check a few things. We discovered the same issues...



 Depending upon variant, start sequence involves:

 1 - Close Cl Del or Aux Bus switch;

 2 - Program route, obtain clearance, etc;

 3 - Close DC Master switch;

 4 - Open Cl Del or Aux Bus switch;

 5 - Start engine



 This allows us of the Cl Del/Brownout Bus continuously. It also appears to have a couple drawbacks. Please check us on this:



 If you open the Cl Del or Aux Bus switch before closing the DC Master switch, your route evaporates during start up. Sounds like a good reason to checklist this exact sequence and rehearse it a little...



 Once you are flying, something causes you to need to drop back to min electrical power in the airplane. This could be anything from alternator/regulator faults to an electrical fire. Your sequence to keep the EFIS, attitude reference, and #1 Com online (very important if IMC or smoke is obscuring view outside) must be to turn on the Cl Del or Aux Bus before turning off the DC Master. Do them out of order and your ability to keep the airplane upright and heading toward a safe spot to put down just evaporated until you get through the reboots and some scratching for the center freq. So, using this scheme seems to drive us to checklist this exact sequence too, and rehearse it a bunch.



 If I was more clever I suppose I could come up with a way to prevent inadvertent shut down of the Clearance/Brownout Bus.  Anybody have any way to help out our very human pilot from these very human failures?



 Billski

Hi Billski,
	




I haven't followed Z101 development closely, since I'd already finished 

my architecture & wiring. But here's my take.



IIRC, the dual alts are supposed to eliminate the need for load 

shedding. The Clrnc/BO bus is not an endurance bus.



'Smoke in the cockpit' traditionally means making the entire cockpit 

cold; not just the stuff we think we can do without in the moment (it 

could be the EFIS that's on fire). The engine bus staying hot is a 

required concession to an electrically dependent engine.



My alternative to the brownout bus, relay, etc is to simply wire a boost 

converter's input to the EFIS's main power input, and it's output to one 

of the EFIS's diode-isolated aux power inputs. In my particular 

installation, it works fine to prevent brownout rebooting, and the 

parasitic load from the boost converter running all the time is a few 

tenths of an amp. I don't need the clearance delivery feature in my type 

of flying.



Charlie

(rv7charlie on HBA)



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_________________
Charlie

wsimpso1

Joined: 04 Nov 2018
Posts: 27
Location: Saline MI

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: Z101 has been released under Rev A

 	  Ceengland wrote: 	
		  IIRC, the dual alts are supposed to eliminate the need for load shedding. The Clrnc/BO bus is not an endurance bus. 	




Does not seem that way... 



Bob has talked about how the Aux Alt and its Ford regulator are standby devices, not normally used and so do not need to be the nice electrically quiet linear amplifiers we use on our primary alternators. Sounds to me like it is not powered up normally. 



Then on to function. If you power up the Aux Bus to program your flight and collect your clearance, but do not open its switch before your attempt to start, the brownout booster is not connected to the Cl Del/ Brownout Bus, and your preparation evaporates in the reboot. I have to believe that the Aux Aux Bus switch is usually only Closed pre-start. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  'Smoke in the cockpit' traditionally means making the entire cockpit 

cold; not just the stuff we think we can do without in the moment (it 

could be the EFIS that's on fire). The engine bus staying hot is a 

required concession to an electrically dependent engine. 	




Unless the smoke is from an engine fire... then you would want to keep some electronics and make the engine bus cold.



 	  Quote: 	
		  My alternative to the brownout bus, relay, etc is to simply wire a boost converter's input to the EFIS's main power input, and it's output to one 

of the EFIS's diode-isolated aux power inputs. In my particular installation, it works fine to prevent brownout rebooting, and the parasitic load from the boost converter running all the time is a few tenths of an amp. I don't need the clearance delivery feature in my type of flying. 	




I have thought about that approach too, good to hear that it works. It will remove the dependance upon specific sequences of switch throwing to keep programmed routes, etc on engine start, but we still have to remember to close the Aux Switch if we want to keep the EFIS and GPS/NAV/COM in an emergency where we would be opening the DC Master.



I guess nobody else is watching old threads on here...



Billski

Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 378
Location: MS

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:19 pm Post subject: Z101 has been released under Rev A

On 8/10/2021 5:38 PM, wsimpso1 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Ceengland wrote:

> IIRC, the dual alts are supposed to eliminate the need for load shedding. The Clrnc/BO bus is not an endurance bus.

 Does not seem that way...

 Bob has talked about how the Aux Alt and its Ford regulator are standby devices, not normally used and so do not need to be the nice electrically quiet linear amplifiers we use on our primary alternators. Sounds to me like it is not powered up normally.

Not my interpretation of what he's said; any properly functioning 

automotive alternator & regulator (internal or external), installed 

correctly, will be just as quiet as the B&C. (I can testify.) My 

interpretation of what he said is that the backup alt/reg doesn't need 

all the bells&whistles of the (expensive) B&C regulator (OV protection, 

auto-activation), because it's a backup, and manual activation is easy 

if we're notified of low (less than normal charging) voltage. 

Auto-switching was developed for FAA certification, making them usable 

in certified a/c. Having an OV failure of the backup regulator, after 

some failure mode of the primary charging system, strains even 

lightning-strike odds. Loss of primary isn't an emergency; you can pour 

yourself a cup of coffee, and after a casual troubleshooting session, 

bring the backup on line. The battery handles the load for the few 

seconds or minutes it takes to bring up the backup.

 	  Quote: 	

 Then on to function. If you power up the Aux Bus to program your flight and collect your clearance, but do not open its switch before your attempt to start, the brownout booster is not connected to the Cl Del/ Brownout Bus, and your preparation evaporates in the reboot. I have to believe that the Aux Aux Bus switch is usually only Closed pre-start.

Everything's a compromise. Ex: remembering to leave the non-impulse mag 

off during start is important switchology compromise, but we've done it 

for so long we don't think of it as a special requirement. Hot starting 

a Bendix injected Lyc is a strenuous exercise in stupidity, but we've 

learned to live with it for so long it's 'normal'.

You *could* substitute one make-before-break DP3T (on-on-on) switch for 

the clrnc del & master switches, to automate the process. But then you 

need a rather specialized switch which isn't going to be available in 

East Podunk if it fails, *and* it becomes a single point of failure for 

the entire airplane. Compromises...

 	  Quote: 	

> 'Smoke in the cockpit' traditionally means making the entire cockpit

> cold; not just the stuff we think we can do without in the moment (it

> could be the EFIS that's on fire). The engine bus staying hot is a

> required concession to an electrically dependent engine.

 Unless the smoke is from an engine fire... then you would want to keep some electronics and make the engine bus cold.

So you open the engine control & pump switches (downstream of the bus), 

instead of flipping two mag switches and moving the fuel valve to 'off'. 

New switchology for new technology. Compromises...

 	  Quote: 	

> My alternative to the brownout bus, relay, etc is to simply wire a boost converter's input to the EFIS's main power input, and it's output to one

> of the EFIS's diode-isolated aux power inputs. In my particular installation, it works fine to prevent brownout rebooting, and the parasitic load from the boost converter running all the time is a few tenths of an amp. I don't need the clearance delivery feature in my type of flying.

 I have thought about that approach too, good to hear that it works.

For me, with my components. Don't trust; verify (with your components). 

 	  Quote: 	
		   It will remove the dependance upon specific sequences of switch throwing to keep programmed routes, etc on engine start, but we still have to remember to close the Aux Switch if we want to keep the EFIS and GPS/NAV/COM in an emergency where we would be opening the DC Master.

Yes. But what cockpit emergency would cause you to want to keep the EFIS 

online, but take everything else off? If there's smoke in the cockpit, 

if we know where the smoke's coming from we can just turn that component 

off. As already mentioned, load shedding shouldn't be needed in most 

circumstances when a backup alternator is available, or could be 

accomplished by individually powering down a couple of devices. If you 

really need an endurance bus because normal loads exceed the capacity of 

the backup alt + the battery, then one of the other drawings might be a 

better choice as a starting point. Or maybe add the endurance bus to 

this one.

 	  Quote: 	

 I guess nobody else is watching old threads on here...

 Billski

Bob has always said that the drawings are guides; not schematics. I took 

the brownout bus ideas, decided I wanted to simplify *if I could*, and 

it worked out for me, remembering that clearance delivery wasn't in my 

requirements list.

Please remember that these are my thoughts/opinions; not Bob's. Weigh 

them as you see fit. 

Charlie

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Charlie

AmandaGrey
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2023 12:52 am Post subject: Re: Z101 has been released under Rev A

Thanks a lot for information, was searching for similar one

nuckollsr

Joined: 24 Mar 2009
Posts: 95
Location: Medicine Lodge, KS

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2023 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Z101 has been released under Rev A

Dear Bob,



is the Z101 source as well available as dwg file so I can taylor it to 

my new project (SDS/emag/no brownout).



   Sorry for the relative silence. My email service has been

   on the fritz (on account of new Google 'security' features)

   for several weeks. I think we're close to resolving the issues.

   So for you folks that are missing replies from me . . . especially

   those with gmail accounts . . . I expect to be up and running

   shortly.



Thanks a lot for your help, BTW will the next edition of your book 

include these new diagrams?



  The latest diagrams on on the website. Z101B is current

  at http://aeroelectric.com/PPS/ACAD_Architecture_Dwgs/Z101B.dwg

  The z-figures folders

  are where upgrades take place to be included in future

  editions. Rev 12 is current. You can download a .pdf copy

  of the print edition following links on the website.

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