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Neal George
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 14
Location: Navarre, FL
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 Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:32 am Post subject: EarthX on Firewall |
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Bob -
For a Rotax-powered KitFox:
Any heat-related concerns for putting an EarthX ETX680C on the firewall?
Neal
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matronics(at)rtist.nl
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echristley(at)att.net
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:01 am Post subject: EarthX on Firewall |
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Huh? Those recommendations don't make sense to me.
The first chart seems to indicate that the box will hold the heat off for 30 min in a static situation. That makes sense, because the engine is cooling down during that 30 min and the delay will keep the battery from hitting that red line.
If taken at face value, the second seems to say that you're limited to 90 minutes of flight time. After that, you're killing your battery.
Are they seriously saying this? And what happens when you park after a 2hr flight, and the battery is already heat soaked?
On Wednesday, June 23, 2021, 09:15:22 AM EDT, Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl> wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl (matronics(at)rtist.nl)>
Neal,
Might be best to follow the manufacturer's recommendations:
https://earthxbatteries.com/engine-compartment-battery-installations
Rob
On 6/23/2021 2:32 PM, Neal George wrote:
| Quote: | For a Rotax-powered KitFox:
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| Quote: | Any heat-related concerns for putting an EarthX ETX680C on the firewall?
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| Quote: | Read this topic online here:
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http://www.matronics.=================
http://wiki.matronics.com<====================
http://w======
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matronics(at)rtist.nl
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:27 am Post subject: EarthX on Firewall |
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If it's any indication, I'm running an AeroAkku LFP450D (450A CCA, 7Ah) next to my Jabiru 3300 shoe-horned in a small cowl. The battery is mounted low on the firewall, so heat trapped under the cowl when parked doesn't affect it as much as one mounted high up. But still, everything hot is nearby. I do not have a heat shield or box
I've ran my first battery from 2013 to last year. Then replaced it for peace of mind. Measured endurance and CCA of the 7+ battery, and it was as good as new (440CCA, 7Ah). On my second battery, keeping the first one around for experiments and helping out others with flat batteries
On 6/23/2021 6:00 PM, Ernest Christley wrote:
| Quote: | Huh? Those recommendations don't make sense to me.
The first chart seems to indicate that the box will hold the heat off for 30 min in a static situation. That makes sense, because the engine is cooling down during that 30 min and the delay will keep the battery from hitting that red line.
If taken at face value, the second seems to say that you're limited to 90 minutes of flight time. After that, you're killing your battery.
Are they seriously saying this? And what happens when you park after a 2hr flight, and the battery is already heat soaked?
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neal.george(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:34 am Post subject: EarthX on Firewall |
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Ernest - That’s the way I read it.
Doesn’t address airflow under the cowl during flight, nor does it speak to natural convective cooling after shutdown.
KitFox, on the other hand, recommends firewall-forward mounting in a simple tray, no box…
Neal
On Jun 23, 2021, at 11:00 AM, Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net (echristley(at)att.net)> wrote:
Huh? Those recommendations don't make sense to me.
The first chart seems to indicate that the box will hold the heat off for 30 min in a static situation. That makes sense, because the engine is cooling down during that 30 min and the delay will keep the battery from hitting that red line.
If taken at face value, the second seems to say that you're limited to 90 minutes of flight time. After that, you're killing your battery.
Are they seriously saying this? And what happens when you park after a 2hr flight, and the battery is already heat soaked?
On Wednesday, June 23, 2021, 09:15:22 AM EDT, Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl (matronics(at)rtist.nl)> wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl (matronics(at)rtist.nl)>
Neal,
Might be best to follow the manufacturer's recommendations:
https://earthxbatteries.com/engine-compartment-battery-installations
Rob
On 6/23/2021 2:32 PM, Neal George wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neal George" <neal(at)appaero.com.matronics.com (neal(at)appaero.com.matronics.com)>
Bob -
For a Rotax-powered KitFox:
Any heat-related concerns for putting an EarthX ETX680C on the firewall?
Neal
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echristley(at)att.net
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:51 am Post subject: EarthX on Firewall |
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I had my first LiFePo strapped to the firewall with no protection.
Heat from the exhaust pipe destroyed it. You could see where it swelled up on the bottom just above the pipe. Built a heat shield shelf to sit it on with some intervening insulation tape, and it is doing fine so far.
Heat in the engine compartment is a lot like magnets in the cockpit. Inches make a HUGE difference.
On Wednesday, June 23, 2021, 12:35:19 PM EDT, Neal George <neal.george(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Ernest - That’s the way I read it.
Doesn’t address airflow under the cowl during flight, nor does it speak to natural convective cooling after shutdown.
KitFox, on the other hand, recommends firewall-forward mounting in a simple tray, no box…
Neal
On Jun 23, 2021, at 11:00 AM, Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net (echristley(at)att.net)> wrote:
Huh? Those recommendations don't make sense to me.
The first chart seems to indicate that the box will hold the heat off for 30 min in a static situation. That makes sense, because the engine is cooling down during that 30 min and the delay will keep the battery from hitting that red line.
If taken at face value, the second seems to say that you're limited to 90 minutes of flight time. After that, you're killing your battery.
Are they seriously saying this? And what happens when you park after a 2hr flight, and the battery is already heat soaked?
On Wednesday, June 23, 2021, 09:15:22 AM EDT, Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl (matronics(at)rtist.nl)> wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Rob Turk <matronics(at)rtist.nl (matronics(at)rtist.nl)>
Neal,
Might be best to follow the manufacturer's recommendations:
https://earthxbatteries.com/engine-compartment-battery-installations
Rob
On 6/23/2021 2:32 PM, Neal George wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Neal George" <neal(at)appaero.com.matronics.com (neal(at)appaero.com.matronics.com)>
Bob -
For a Rotax-powered KitFox:
Any heat-related concerns for putting an EarthX ETX680C on the firewall?
Neal
|
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:05 am Post subject: EarthX on Firewall |
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At 11:00 AM 6/23/2021, you wrote:
| Quote: | Huh? Those recommendations don't make sense to me.
The first chart seems to indicate that the box will hold the heat off for 30 min in a static situation. That makes sense, because the engine is cooling down during that 30 min and the delay will keep the battery from hitting that red line.
If taken at face value, the second seems to say that you're limited to 90 minutes of flight time. After that, you're killing your battery.
Are they seriously saying this? And what happens when you park after a 2hr flight, and the battery is already heat soaked? |
I think the experimental data explores a hypothetical
heat transfer from an exhaust pipe to the battery.
The environmental chamber is a constant source
of heating which does not exist under the cowl.
Exhaust plumbing is a source of RADIANT heat that's easy to
avoid. I don't recall any GA battery installation
on a firewall that was at-risk for radiant
heating.
Tests we conducted on firewall mounting locations
at Cessna waaayyy back when demonstrated that
the highest temperatures experienced on the
firewall were AFTER engine shutdown with the
aircraft sitting in a zero-wind condition. Even
then, transient temperatures were not real exciting . . .
about 160F as I recall for minutes.
Turbo engines were hotter after shutdown
due to larger mass of really warm metal positioned
in the lower regions of the cowl where convection flow
would take the BTUs upward. It was not uncommon
for pilot's to open the oil filler access
door to allow heat to escape while waiting
for the fuel truck to do it's thing.
For the vast majority of our projects, any
battery should live well sitting out in the
open on a firewall mounted battery tray.
It doesn't get all that hot there in
flight and only for short periods of time
in various non-flight conditions.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:12 am Post subject: EarthX on Firewall |
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At 11:49 AM 6/23/2021, you wrote:
| Quote: | I had my first LiFePo strapped to the firewall with no protection.
Heat from the exhaust pipe destroyed it. You could see where it swelled up on the bottom just above the pipe. Built a heat shield shelf to sit it on with some intervening insulation tape, and it is doing fine so far.
Heat in the engine compartment is a lot like magnets in the cockpit. Inches make a HUGE difference. |
Yes . . . if you put a hotdog on a spit over a fire,
it's reasonable to expect it to get toasted. This
builder might have avoided the experience by taking
advantage of the various forums available.
General aviation is over a century old . . . designers
have learned a great deal about what works . . . and
what doesn't . . . and why.
Heat shield? Yup . . . who wuda thunk it? When
in doubt, research the history.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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echristley(at)att.net
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:09 pm Post subject: EarthX on Firewall |
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| Quote: | When in doubt? The true enemy is lack of doubt.  |
Yeeaaahh . . . sort of . . . all successful
inventions have foundations in knowledge:
Properties of materials, management of energy and
refinement of process.
Any recipe for success features a useful
mix of those qualities that can be shared
with confidence of achieving the same results.
Hence I suggest that the greatest risk to
success arises out of ignorance. The
thinking craftsman should have doubts
when the task at hand is not paired with
a recipe for success.
This is why networking . . . whether
through formalized venues such as forums,
special interest groups, etc have become
the go-to sources for the evolution, proofing
and sharing of recipes.
The more knowledge is given away, the
greater its worth. The worth of an idea
never shared cannot be measured.
Bob . . .
Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"
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