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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:12 pm Post subject: New role for the E-Bus?

At 04:09 PM 4/7/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  In most installations the master switch has to be energized before the starter solenoid can get power. If that is the case here shutting off the master would de-energize the starter.



 Rodney Hall 	


   I'm pretty sure that's a requirement under the FARS

   for type certification



 

   Bob . . .

jluckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:58 pm Post subject: New role for the E-Bus?

Bob,

are you talking about the start solenoid coil circuit or the starter motor circuit?





-Jeff

                  

                                                                    On Tuesday, April 7, 2020, 05:23:00 PM PDT, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:                 

                 



                 



                   At 04:09 PM 4/7/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  In most installations the master switch has to be energized before the starter solenoid can get power. If that is the case here shutting off the master would de-energize the starter.



 Rodney Hall 	


   I'm pretty sure that's a requirement under the FARS

   for type certification



 

    Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:54 pm Post subject: New role for the E-Bus?

 	  Quote: 	
		    	  Quote: 	
		  

 The answer is that I do not.  I consider the likelihood of a welded-shut start solenoid to be so rare as to not be a factor.  But I also don't use a traditional "tin-can" start solenoid.  I'm using a Ford start solenoid that has be optimized (by Ford sometime back in the 80's) specifically for the task of cranking engines.  I've heard them referred to as "pancake" solenoids.  They look like this: 



  https://www.amazon.com/ACDelco-F3914-Professional-Starter-Solenoid/dp/B000IYY3KQ/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=ford+starter+solenoid&qid=1586279687&sr=8-9  



 Herein lies the beauty of OBAM aircraft:  we have the freedom to specify the parts we feel are better suited for a particular job. 	
	


   This form factor is common to countless 

   offerings of starter contactors for DC

   vehicle cranking systems.



   I've done teardown inspections on NEW

   contactors and occasionally been disappointed

   to find less than consistent quality . . . who

   would have thunk it?



   When purchasing contactors, legacy name brands

   are the best bet. Or buy from folks like

   the AeroElectic Connection (lifetime satisfaction

   warranty) or B&C (will bend over backwards to

   keep you happy) and you'll get a product

   with a track record. Digikey et als only

   sell name brand parts supported by spec sheets

   NEVER offered by fly-by-night supplier/manufacturers



 

 

   Bob . . .

donvansanten(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:08 pm Post subject: New role for the E-Bus?

Hi Bob, This is my second reply to this thread. You did not answer my

first reply, maybe you missed it.

I like the Z01  architecture  but would also like Z12 to stay available.

I have a dual AFS efis system and and an Avidyne 540 gps navigator.

The AFS systems have primary and back up power inputs'

The system will only boot when power is applied to the normal power

input ports. The back up system is a TCW backup battery. It switches

on when voltage drops below 13.1 volts.

The backup system is on at all times that the engine is not running.

The backup can be turned off via a switch that a ground wire passes

through. So the system is in charge mode above 13.1 volts and below

that voltage the standby is in output mode I turn the standby off when

I power the master down and back on then I turn the master on.

        is means that the backup battery is only functioning as a

brown out protection device. The Avidyne does not have separate backup

power input ports.



My question is whether the brown out booster shown in Z-01 is capable

of powering two efis systems and a a gps navigator during engine

start? If more information is needed please let me know what you would

need to answer my question.  Thanks in advance. Don



On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 12:22 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III

<nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 At 10:49 AM 4/3/2020, you wrote:



 



 Moving this to the correct thread.  Anyone see any issues with Bob's new/proposed architecture for an IO-360 with one mag and one electronic ignition?  Would folks recommend the ignition be on the Battery bus?



 http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z99P1.pdf

   That was not so much a 'proposal' as the

   seed for the evolution of a replacement

   for Z12 . . . dual alternator, single battery,

   electrically dependent engine.



   The Z99 was a first pass sketch that ultimately

   moved to the proposal/discussion stage

   with Z01.



   Z01P3 as presently posted is the latest iteration

   and as Joe noted, still needs the 'nits' combed

   out.



 https://tinyurl.com/qnzenca



   No bus requires more than powering up the aircraft

   with DC power master switch to become HOT. Any

   time the main bus is up, all busses are up

   irrespective the position of any other switch.



   Given two, robust alternators, the endurance-

   bus function is unnecessary. There is no time

   that one might expect to operate battery

   only.



   There is a 'brownout' bus which is optional

   and could be 'boosted' during cranking if

   the airplane is fitted with any electro-whizzies

   vulnerable to cranking brownout. At a minimum,

   this bus might power the #1 comm transceiver

   whereupon the crew controlled, alternate feed to this

   bus could be used to power up just that radio

   to get clearance delivery (an optional feature

   going into Bonanzas and Barons while I was

   still working there).



   If the system supports no devices needing

   always hot battery power, the battery bus

   can also be eliminated. The minimalist

   configuration for Z01 would be a MAIN

   and ENGINE bus.



   The engine bus also features an crew controlled,

   alternate feed directly from the battery. There

   is no single failure of the power system that

   would cause loss of engine.



   There are only 4 switches of which only one

   has profound control over the status of ship's

   power. The other 3 are normally OFF pending

   failures that prompt reconfiguration.



   Suggested accessories go to simplifying

   installation while minimizing costs

   and potential pilot workloads.



   If the List is willing, I'd like to continue

   to refine this configuration with an eye

   to retiring Z12 and probably Z14 as well.

   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:23 am Post subject: New role for the E-Bus?

At 09:51 PM 4/7/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bob,



 are you talking about the start solenoid coil circuit or the starter motor circuit?



 	


   The spirit and intent of a crew controlled, master power

   disconnect feature is to make as much of the aircraft

   electrically cold when in the OFF position.



   As it was presented to me (many moons ago) the

   benefits were two-fold: (1) reduced risk for

   post-crash fire and (2) ground/maintenance safety -

   no chance for inadvertent motion of machinery

   or hazards sparks during maintenance ops.



   The exceptions called for feeders off the battery

   bus protected at no more than 5A.



   I've endeavored to embrace that philosophy.

   First as a requirement of my job (TC aircraft)

   and later (OBAM aircraft) because it was

   not a BAD idea. It was easy to implement

   and not a significant impediment to crafting

   elegant architectures.



   Z01 as currently proposed ties the aux

   alternator b-lead to the battery via

   fusible link. This sorta resurrects

   the old Z13/8 which 'bugged' me based

   on my professional experience. Nonetheless,

   an always-hot, aux alternator b-lead offered

   a way to simply implement the three-layered

   source philosophies of Z13/8 and Z13/20.



   I'm going to publish the 4th iteration

   of Z01 in the next few days. I've got

   a 7th grade grandson sheltering-in-place

   and spooling up online schooling. Man!

   I don't think I'd ever have the patience

   to wrestle with a room full of 7th

   graders! One is entirely enough!

   



 



 

   Bob . . .

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1908
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:32 am Post subject: Re: New role for the E-Bus?

Don, it is up to the builder to choose suitable components.  eBay has several

 DC-DC converters (brown out boosters).  Most of them are made in China 

and the product capabilities are greatly exaggerated.  The the advertised 

rating might twice of the product's actual capacity.  Buyer beware.

_________________
Joe Gores

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:38 am Post subject: New role for the E-Bus?

At 02:05 AM 4/8/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: don van santen <donvansanten(at)gmail.com>



 Hi Bob, This is my second reply to this thread. You did not answer my

 first reply, maybe you missed it. 	


   sorry . . . yes



  	  Quote: 	
		  I like the Z01  architecture  but would also like Z12 to stay available. 	


    . . . Z12 isn't going to 'go away'. It simply moves

    down the hierarchy of preference for elegance in

    architecture. It may not appear in later editions of

    the 'Connecton but there's thousands of paper copies

    and unknown digital copies that will continue to illustrate

    and explain Z12. Elegance, like beauty, is in the

    eye of the beholder . . . if preferences depicted in

    my publications don't rise to your own standards

    for elegance . . . no problem! Except for the aux

    alternator b-lead terminator, Z01 is fundamentally

    identical to Z12. 



  	  Quote: 	
		  I have a dual AFS efis system and and an Avidyne 540 gps navigator.

 The AFS systems have primary and back up power inputs'

 	
  <snip>



 

  	  Quote: 	
		           is means that the backup battery is only functioning as a

 brown out protection device. The Avidyne does not have separate backup

 power input ports.



 My question is whether the brown out booster shown in Z-01 is capable

 of powering two efis systems and a a gps navigator during engine

 start? If more information is needed please let me know what you would

 need to answer my question. 	


   The brownout booster is an off the shelf

   step up power supply which can be acquired

   in any needed size. What is the total running

   current for powered-up devices on your

   proposed brown-out bus?



 

   Bob . . .

donvansanten(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:53 am Post subject: New role for the E-Bus?

Thanks Bob and Joe. I did not know these devices are available. I thought it was something Bob had designed. My bad. I will need to look up the measured currents for the two EFIS's and the Avidyne navigator.Â  Again, thanks for the help and the numbers will follow in a few days.Don

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020, 10:43 user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Don, it is up to the builder to choose suitable components.Â  eBay has several

 Â DC-DC converters (brown out boosters).Â  Most of them are made in China 

 and the product capabilities are greatly exaggerated.Â  The the advertised 

 rating might twice of the product's actual capacity.Â  Buyer beware.

 

 --------

 Joe Gores

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=495698#495698

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  -

 Electric-List" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

 ===========

  FORUMS -

 eferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 WIKI -

 errer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ===========

 b Site -

 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

yellowduckduo(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:38 am Post subject: New role for the E-Bus?

On 08/04/2020 1:32 PM, user9253 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Don, it is up to the builder to choose suitable components.  eBay has several

   DC-DC converters (brown out boosters).  Most of them are made in China

 and the product capabilities are greatly exaggerated.  The the advertised

 rating might twice of the product's actual capacity.  Buyer beware.



 --------

 Joe Gores



I have found that such ebay ratings may be reasonable IF additional heat 
	


sinks or forced air cooling is used.Â  It can take a little digging to 

figure that out though as the final ebay re-seller may not mention those 

details and may not be aware of them or understand them.Â  For short duty 

cycles it may not matter anyway.



Off topic quote (probably from a teacher) regarding Bob K's comment on 

the seventh grade student.

"with all the students at home these days, it is just possible that a 

whole bunch of parents are going to realize that the teacher is NOT the 

problem..."Â  



Ken

do not archive

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:06 pm Post subject: New role for the E-Bus?

At 01:47 PM 4/8/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Thanks Bob and Joe. I did not know these devices are available. I thought it was something Bob had designed. My bad. I will need to look up the measured currents for the two EFIS's and the Avidyne navigator.Â  Again, thanks for the help and the numbers will follow in a few days.

 Don 	


   When you've got those numbers, let me

   dig through the samples I have on hand.

   We may just have the device you need.



 

 

   Bob . . .

donvansanten(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:05 pm Post subject: New role for the E-Bus?

Thank you.



On Wed, Apr 8, 2020, 17:13 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		    At 01:47 PM 4/8/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Thanks Bob and Joe. I did not know these devices are available. I thought it was something Bob had designed. My bad. I will need to look up the measured currents for the two EFIS's and the Avidyne navigator.Ã‚Â  Again, thanks for the help and the numbers will follow in a few days.

 Don 	


 Â  When you've got those numbers, let me

 Â  dig through the samples I have on hand.

 Â  We may just have the device you need.



 

 

 Â  Bob . . .

roughleg(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:24 pm Post subject: New role for the E-Bus?

Bob, I'm surprised by your suggestion to "Â buy from folks likeÂ the AeroElectic Connection" - I haveÂ been reading in "the book" and many of your web articles about products the Aeroelectric Connection sold - but it all seemed to be in the past. I say that because I haven't been able to find any of these products on your website. But now you said it in a recent email so it must be true - how do I order form you?

Pat

On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 9:59 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

<snip>

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Â  When purchasing contactors, legacy name brands

 Â  are the best bet. Or buy from folks like

 Â  the AeroElectic Connection (lifetime satisfaction

 Â  warranty) or B&C (will bend over backwards to

 Â  keep you happy) and you'll get a product

 Â  with a track record. Digikey et als only

 Â  sell name brand parts supported by spec sheets

 Â  NEVER offered by fly-by-night supplier/manufacturers



 

 

 Â  Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:17 am Post subject: New role for the E-Bus?

At 10:19 PM 4/8/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bob, I'm surprised by your suggestion to "Â buy from folks like

 the AeroElectic Connection" - I have been reading in "the book"

 and many of your web articles about products the Aeroelectric

 Connection sold - but it all seemed to be in the past. I say that

 because I haven't been able to find any of these products on

 your website. But now you said it in a recent email so it must

 be true - how do I order form you? 	


   Sorry 'bout that . . . I didn't mean to infer that

   we were still in the parts business. Sold that

   part of our operations when Dr. Dee started

   graduate school!



   The thrust of the post was to look suppliers

   of both HARDWARE and INFORMATION who have

   proven track records. There are hundreds

   of manufacturers for 'starter contactors'

   the majority of which are probably fine for our

   purposes . . . failure of a starter contactor

   is a low-risk inconvenience. But if you're

   disposed to worry about it then going

   to proven sources for your part selection

   should help . . .



 

 

   Bob . . .

donvansanten(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:31 am Post subject: New role for the E-Bus?

Hi Bob,

 It will be a while before I can get the "real" numbers due to severe

weather and the covid-19 shut down.

The published numbers for the EFIS are 2.8 A (at)12 V each . Total for

both is 5.6A.

The IFD540  published are  Main 4.4A  Com 6.5A  and Nav  0.5A  all at

14 volts.. These are peak and I believe an actual would be closer to

5.9A

There is no transmission during start up so I used 1A for the Com.

The total of 11.5  is very close the the number I remember seeing on

the amp meter after the battery

 is recharged during flight. I hope this is enough information to

allow you to make a determination as

to which start booster would be required. Thanks.

Don



On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 5:13 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III

<nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 At 01:47 PM 4/8/2020, you wrote:



 Thanks Bob and Joe. I did not know these devices are available. I thought it was something Bob had designed. My bad. I will need to look up the measured currents for the two EFIS's and the Avidyne navigator.Ã‚  Again, thanks for the help and the numbers will follow in a few days.

 Don

   When you've got those numbers, let me

   dig through the samples I have on hand.

   We may just have the device you need.

   Bob . . .

johnbright

Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA

Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: New role for the E-Bus?

 	  donvansanten(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  

... I have a dual AFS efis system and and an Avidyne 540 gps navigator...



My question is whether the brown out booster shown in Z-01 is capable

of powering two efis systems and a a gps navigator during engine

start?... 	




Hi Don,



Question... does it matter if the EFIS and Comm reboot during crank?



The IFD 540 installation manual says the screen will dim below 11.5V but it keeps running down to 9V. I think battery voltage does not fall that far during crank; maybe 11V or 10V at the least. (Below 9V the IFD 540 it goes into a "60 second power down sequence" but I don't know what that implies for cranking.)

_________________
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
N1921R links

wsimpso1

Joined: 04 Nov 2018
Posts: 27
Location: Saline MI

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:44 am Post subject: Re: New role for the E-Bus?

I was on Avidyne's site and saw their 60 second shutdown at 9 volts too. I wonder if they have an integral booster or some other solution. 



I have inquiries to both Dynon and Avidyne on the topic of brownout reboot during cranking. Yeah, I know, Dynon says use their backup battery. I also inquired about having more than one set of power connections, perhaps diode isolated inputs. 



I wonder if we would be wise to isolate the brownout booster's output from ship's power with diodes on both feeds to the buses or at each powered box.



Billski

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:39 am Post subject: New role for the E-Bus?

I've been working on three new z-figures between

 wrestling bouts with my dad's '87 GMC pickup

 truck (fuel pump died . . . as long as I have

 to pull the whole tank to replace the pump, I'm

 replacing EVERYTHING . . . I'm down to the

 last two fasteners holding the tank supports

 on the frame . . . 30+ years of rust . . .

 Impact wrench won't budge 'em. Been soaking

 with penetrating oil but about resigned to

 cutting the nuts off with an air-chisel!)



 I've posted the latest iterations of the

 drawings we've been combing out here over

 the past couple of months. 



 Z100 at  https://tinyurl.com/sfsbd2t



 This is the generic architecture that's

 been flown successfully in hundreds of thousands

 of airplanes in the TC and OBAM aviation worlds.



 This drawing could have been in Tony Bengelis

 books . . . same as a C150 sans avionics bus

 (which was never a good idea anyhow). Then:



 Z101 at  https://tinyurl.com/v9w7g4r



 This is Z100 any combination of 4 options:



 (1) Robust AUX Alternator



 (2) Dual feed, triple source ENGINE bus

     to support electrically dependent

     engine and ancillary instrumentation.



 (3) A CLEARANCE DELIVERY bus that offers

     a means for powering up JUST the

     COMM transceiver for preflight

     planning



 (4) A brownout boost feature on the

     CD bus to support wobbly electro-whizzies

     vulnerable to unacceptable reset

     during starter inrush interval.

     

     Then:



 Z101/8 at  https://tinyurl.com/vanp6yu



 Essentially the same as Z101 except for a

 smaller AUX alternator in lieu of the bigger

 rascal depicted in Z101.



 This configuration offers all the features

 and reliability with reduced weight and

 cost over Z101 where the builder's anticipated

 loads under failure of main alternator are

 modest. The way the AUX ALT is set up on

 these drawings makes it easy to upgrade

 from a /8 to the larger alternator as

 later needs dictate.



 These drawings depict variations suggested

 in a constellation of Z-figures . . . a

 kind of LEGO approach to acquiring capabilities

 of any legacy z-figure at the simplest,

 lightest, lowest cost yet failure tolerant

 architecturs. 



 

   Bob . . .

Eric Page

Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 242

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: New role for the E-Bus?

Bob,



I like these architectures a lot, and I think they'd work very well in the day/night VFR Kitfox I plan to build, hopefully one day soon.  They're easy to understand, which would make them easy to install, operate and maintain.  Low parts count and simplicity would offer high reliability.  They look like winners to me.



I just noticed a couple of minor quibbles:



1.  In all three drawings, the legends show a small square symbol indicating "2AWG EQUAL STRAP," but this symbol does not appear to be used in the drawings.



2.  In Z101 and Z101/8, naming of the CD BUS is inconsistent.  The actual bus is labeled "CLRNC DELVRY," but the feeds from the diode bridge and the BATTERY BUS are labeled "B.O. BUS."



Cheers,



Eric

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:26 pm Post subject: New role for the E-Bus?

At 06:52 PM 4/14/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric Page" <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com>



 I just noticed a couple of minor quibbles:



 1.  In all three drawings, the legends show a small square symbol indicating "2AWG EQUAL STRAP," but this symbol does not appear to be used in the drawings. 	


   Yes, those are boiler-plate notes from

   the suit of legacy drawings. Also, there's

   a 'fat wire tie point' adjacent to the

   battery contactor.



   When stacking lots of terminals on

   the stud of a contactor, there is competition

   for wire orientation off the stud. Further,

   many studs are too short to accept the full

   stack of terminals. Nonetheless, contactors

   offer robust tie points for multiple wires . . .

   particularly fat ones.



   I'm pondering options for a DIY 'stud expander'

   suitable for bringing too many wires together

   at the contactor. Still hashing out some options.

   Watch this space.



  	  Quote: 	
		  2.  In Z101 and Z101/8, naming of the CD BUS is inconsistent.  The actual bus is labeled "CLRNC DELVRY," but the feeds from the diode bridge and the BATTERY BUS are labeled "B.O. BUS."

 	


   Yeah, that bus will service numerous design

   goals that range from the simple, single accessory

   (comm) tasked with clearance delivery. It could

   become an ENDURANCE BUS for ships with no AUX

   ALTERNATOR . . . and yes, if some of your

   accessories are plagued with brown-out reset

   issues, then it could be called a BROWN-OUT

   bus . . . or some combination of all three

   tasks.



   Perhaps POLYBUS is a better term that embraces

   all the goals?  I think these drawings have

   potential for replacing many of the legacy

   z-drawings but they will require a comprehensive

   narrative to guide new user's selection and

   implementation of features.



   Thanks for taking the time to review and comment.

   These drawings may be up to P10 before they get offered as

   best recommendations! 



 

   Bob . . .

bcone1381

Joined: 25 Apr 2017
Posts: 42
Location: Southeast Michigan

Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: New role for the E-Bus?

Z100 has With Endurance and Brownout Bus in its title, but I don't see them in the drawing.

_________________
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build

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