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Crowbar OV Module

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 9:14 am Post subject: Crowbar OV Module

At 02:06 AM 5/11/2013, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Good morning Bob,

  

 I just bought one crowbar OV module from your site. Could you tell me as precisely as possible the value of the voltage which triggers the module (14.5V ??)?

  

 I plan to use a Rotax 912UL with a Ducati voltage regulator and an Aliant Lithium battery (Ref X4 12V 9.2Ah). This battery is supposedly best charged at 14.4-14.6V, but they also say that voltage over 14.5V could damage the battery ... 

 Of course I am trying to figure out if the crowbar OV module can protect this battery from voltage over 14.5V.

  

 Regards

 Eric Boutteloup 	


   Sure.  The Crowbar ov modules we produce are

   set on the bench at 16.4 volts and they

   have a significant negative temperature

   coefficient. In very cold conditions, the

   voltage will be a bit higher, when hot

   they'll be a bit lower. This is consistent

   with a lead acid battery's performance needs

   with respect to ambient temperature.



   The OV module is NOT intended nor designed

   to guard the welfare of a battery although

   it's presence in the system will benefit

   the battery and all other electro-whizzies

   from a runaway alternator.



   The failure condition we're concerned

   with is a failed regulator that allows

   an alternator to run essentially full bore.

   While not a spectacular event with your Rotax

   18A alternator, it's another matter with a

   60A belt driven alternator on a Lycoming.



   The Crowbar OVM is a rational addition to

   your system but it's not going to catch

   a poorly performing regulator that's putting

   your battery at risk for LONG term effects

   of inappropriate voltage setting.



   Care and feeding of your lithium battery is

   another matter entirely. I'd not heard of

   the Aliant brand until your enquiry. Poking

   around on the 'net I find that they've made

   what appears to be a good penetration of the

   sport vehicles markets. They filed for a trademark

   

   



   late last year.  http://tinyurl.com/d2ohsjo 



   I'm reading also where a part of their organization

   has been awarded a contract to do safety

   studies for the US Army to explore characteristics

   based on environments and maintenance issues.



   This is how the B787 cells should have been

   tested too. Not unlike the work that the Navy's

   battery labs in Crane, IN used to do and

   may still do.



   The lithium elephants in the room are: (1) Can

   one drop an Li battery into location previously

   occupied by lead-acid or Ni-Cad (with no other

   changes to the system) and expect (2) a service life

   commensurate with increased costs,(3) performance

   enhancements commensurate with less weight and (3)

   reliability equal too or better than the batteries

   being replaced (i.e. pre-mature chemistry death

   and catching fire is very much frowned upon!).



   The technology is relatively young and variations

   on a theme for chemistries increases the numbers

   of variables for the sifting of elephants.



   I quick appraisal of Internet images for Aliant

   batteries



  http://tinyurl.com/bnfnfeq



   failed to show a battery with a socket for a "genius

   charger" nor did I see any batteries fitted with

   ports to connect such chargers. All the recommended

   chargers ranging from wall warts (including Battery

   Tenders) . . .



   



   



 

   to 'Super chargers' . . . .



   



   . . . appear to make two-wire connections to the battery.

   



   This means that the charger cannot perform to any

   cell-by-cell charging protocols. Now, are they 'tailored'

   to lithium chemistry? Don't know. It would be interesting

   to plot the output from one of these 'recommended' chargers

   to see if they exhibit any more smarts than the commercial

   off the shelf chargers for lead-acid.



   So, Eric my friend, the SHORT answer to your question is

   that the OV module has no duties or practical expectations

   for enhancing battery performance on your airplane. Where

   did you read about 14.5v charge levels being detrimental

   to the product?  Many vehicular alternator regulators may

   produce system voltages at or maybe above 14.5 volts. Only

   an accurate voltmeter on YOUR airplane will tell this

   tale.



   My suspicion is that the literature is referring to long

   term maintenance or 'float' voltages. A system

   operating voltage that was suited to your SVLA battery

   may be no more detrimental to the Li-Ion given the

   intermittent and short term application of the "excess"

   voltage. SLVA is the same way. You MAINTAIN it at just 

   a tad above 13.0 volts and CHARGE it at 14.2 to 14.8 volts.



   The numbers for a drop-in lithium battery should be just

   FINE with similar CHARGE voltages . . . the MAINTENANCE

   voltage will no doubt be different.  This graph taken from

   a learned treatise on Li batteries



 [img]cid:.0[/img]



   Suggests a room temperature open circuit voltage

   on the order of 3.35 volts per cell or 13.4 volts

   for an array of 4 cells. This means that the

   Li-battery 'maintainer' needs to be on the order

   of 13.5 volts . . . probably not too high for a

   lead-acid battery either. 



   Given the drop-in-SVLA-replacement marketing policy

   for the Aliant Li-products, you need not concern

   yourself for any duties of ownership beyond having

   a voltmeter in your airplane that confirms a 14.2

   to 14.8 flight ops voltage . . . and a ov protection

   system for mitigating regulator failures.



  



 

 

   Bob . . .

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 4:20 pm Post subject: Crowbar OV Module

Care and feeding of your lithium battery is

   another matter entirely. I'd not heard of

   the Aliant brand until your enquiry. Poking

   around on the 'net I find that they've made

   what appears to be a good penetration of the

   sport vehicles markets. They filed for a trademark

   

   



   late last year.  http://tinyurl.com/d2ohsjo 



   I'm reading also where a part of their organization

   has been awarded a contract to do safety

   studies for the US Army to explore characteristics

   based on environments and maintenance issues.

  

   SCRATCH THE ABOVE.



   Seems there's a company called Alliant/Valence that makes

   a lot of aerospace/military hardware. These are the

   folks getting the testing job . . . NOT Aliant



 

   Bob . . .     [quote][b]

uuccio(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 11:15 pm Post subject: Crowbar OV Module

Aliant is a brand belonging to ELSA Solutions. They're an Italian company based in Bologna, whose main business is industrial automation and photovoltaic products. 

www.elsaweb.it

Their website is in Italian and they use google translate which can yield some interesting results.

They claim that their batteries were designed with the Battery Management System as the central component which may explain why they haven't run into the same problems as the other manufacturers. 



On 12 May 2013, at 02:18, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

[quote]    Care and feeding of your lithium battery is

   another matter entirely. I'd not heard of

   the Aliant brand until your enquiry. Poking

   around on the 'net I find that they've made

   what appears to be a good penetration of the

   sport vehicles markets. They filed for a trademark

   

   



   late last year.  http://tinyurl.com/d2ohsjo 



   I'm reading also where a part of their organization

   has been awarded a contract to do safety

   studies for the US Army to explore characteristics

   based on environments and maintenance issues.

  

   SCRATCH THE ABOVE.



   Seems there's a company called Alliant/Valence that makes

   a lot of aerospace/military hardware. These are the

   folks getting the testing job . . . NOT Aliant



 

   Bob . . .      	  Quote: 	
		  

	


[b]

jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK
Guest

Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 11:50 pm Post subject: Crowbar OV Module

I know Valence very well. Been using them for a few years in other applications – They ran out of money some time ago. Looks like they are now doing work with this Aliant company ..  Valence had a good technology and a good BMS system – Also the Iron Phosphate technology is pretty safe – Not as energy dense or as powerful as Cobalt  .  

   

To not damage the cells – over voltage under voltage and temperatures all have to be watched and maintained to not damage the cell.  

   

   

         

  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sacha

 Sent: 12 May 2013 07:56

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Crowbar OV Module  

  

     

Aliant is a brand belonging to ELSA Solutions. They're an Italian company based in Bologna, whose main business is industrial automation and photovoltaic products.   

    

www.elsaweb.it  

    

Their website is in Italian and they use google translate which can yield some interesting results.  

    

They claim that their batteries were designed with the Battery Management System as the central component which may explain why they haven't run into the same problems as the other manufacturers.   

    



 On 12 May 2013, at 02:18, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

  Care and feeding of your lithium battery is

   another matter entirely. I'd not heard of

   the Aliant brand until your enquiry. Poking

   around on the 'net I find that they've made

   what appears to be a good penetration of the

   sport vehicles markets. They filed for a trademark

   

  

 

   late last year. http://tinyurl.com/d2ohsjo 

 

   I'm reading also where a part of their organization

   has been awarded a contract to do safety

   studies for the US Army to explore characteristics

   based on environments and maintenance issues.

  

   SCRATCH THE ABOVE.

 

   Seems there's a company called Alliant/Valence that makes

   a lot of aerospace/military hardware. These are the

   folks getting the testing job . . . NOT Aliant

 

 

     

  Bob . . .    	  Quote: 	
		     	


   	
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      [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 5:45 am Post subject: Crowbar OV Module

At 03:01 AM 5/12/2013, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   I know Valence very well. Been using them for a few years in other applications – They ran out of money some time ago. Looks like they are now doing work with this Aliant company ..  Valence had a good technology and a good BMS system – Also the Iron Phosphate technology is pretty safe – Not as energy dense or as powerful as Cobalt  .

  

 To not damage the cells – over voltage under voltage and temperatures all have to be watched and maintained to not damage the cell.

  

  

  	


   Are you saying there IS a cooperation between Aliant

   the battery guys and Alliant/Valence the aerospace/

   military guys?



 

 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK
Guest

Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 6:04 am Post subject: Crowbar OV Module

Bob,  

   

I will make a few phone calls next week and see what I can find out…  

   

Jan  

         

  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III

 Sent: 12 May 2013 14:43

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Crowbar OV Module  

  

   

At 03:01 AM 5/12/2013, you wrote:

 

   

I know Valence very well. Been using them for a few years in other applications – They ran out of money some time ago. Looks like they are now doing work with this Aliant company ..  Valence had a good technology and a good BMS system – Also the Iron Phosphate technology is pretty safe – Not as energy dense or as powerful as Cobalt  .

  

 To not damage the cells – over voltage under voltage and temperatures all have to be watched and maintained to not damage the cell.

  

  

    



   Are you saying there IS a cooperation between Aliant

   the battery guys and Alliant/Valence the aerospace/

   military guys?

 

 

 

     

  Bob . . .    	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List 	
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jan(at)CLAVER.DEMON.CO.UK
Guest

Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 10:27 am Post subject: Crowbar OV Module

Bob,  

   

Done a bit of digging on this .  

   

First Valence is still in Chapter 11. Yes they have supplied some battery modules to Alliant – The US aerospace military contractor.  If that ever became of anything ‘large scale’ I am not sure . if it ever did . it may not have been very profitable .. i.e. Chapter 11  J  

   

Aliant in  Italy have nothing to do with Valence – What Aliant looks to have done is to do the same as Valence did from a integration point – Take small Li-phosphate cells – and integrate them to look like a ‘normal battery’ .. and include some form of BMS.  

   

What was great with Valence was that they based the form factor on your normal 12V ‘golf cart’ size  battery – but it had 3 times the energy. Each battery would like together and you had a master MBS that would talk to all the battery modules and you would get all sort of interesting info over CAN.   

   

From what I can see – Aliant in Italy have focused on single battery only (i.e. not high voltage application – with Valence you could easily string the battery together to give you 400VDC) …  

   

What Aliant is saying about starting from a BMS is just sales blurb .. no one that makes any Li-ion battery will do so unless they have some form of BMS. The question is how good and sophisticated the MBS is.  

   

I would not be surprised if Aliant are using the same cells as Valence – but that is pure guesswork – The cells are made in China by Tianjin Lishen Battery.   

   

If I was to stick a Li-ion battery in a plane I would like to know a lot more about the BMS and how it interact with the cells.  

   

   

         

  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jan

 Sent: 12 May 2013 15:15

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Crowbar OV Module  

  

   

Bob,  

   

I will make a few phone calls next week and see what I can find out…  

   

Jan  

         

  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III

 Sent: 12 May 2013 14:43

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Crowbar OV Module  

  

   

At 03:01 AM 5/12/2013, you wrote:  

I know Valence very well. Been using them for a few years in other applications – They ran out of money some time ago. Looks like they are now doing work with this Aliant company ..  Valence had a good technology and a good BMS system – Also the Iron Phosphate technology is pretty safe – Not as energy dense or as powerful as Cobalt  .

  

 To not damage the cells – over voltage under voltage and temperatures all have to be watched and maintained to not damage the cell.

  

  

    



   Are you saying there IS a cooperation between Aliant

   the battery guys and Alliant/Valence the aerospace/

   military guys?

 

 

   

  Bob . . .    	  Quote: 	
		     http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List 	
 	  Quote: 	
		   http://forums.matronics.com 	
 	  Quote: 	
		   http://www.matronics.com/contribution 	
 	  Quote: 	
		    	


       [quote][b]

Demixl
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Crowbar OV Module

Hey guys. Does anyone know how to register a trademark? sorry for offtop

1nvent

Joined: 25 Sep 2019
Posts: 1

Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Crowbar OV Module

 	  Demixl wrote: 	
		  Hey guys. Does anyone know how to register a trademark? sorry for offtop 	




Hey man, Some time ago I had the same question (I am an entrepreneur) - i needed to register my own trademark and I didn't know how to do it. I searched a lot and finally found a site that can help. Here it is - check site. It is very easy to register a trademark, it can be done in just 3 working days. Good luck

John M Tipton

Joined: 07 Aug 2018
Posts: 45
Location: Devon - England

Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:39 am Post subject: Crowbar OV Module

https://www.trademarkdirect.co.uk/?gclid=CjwKCAjwibzsBRAMEiwA1pHZruxSrx3xnICHd0QMQuEd5kAHP390PbxKO4ATRCiGFV2bhR_U8lR0qxoCn7oQAvD_BwE



Sent from my iPad



     ----x--O--x----

On 28 Sep 2019, at 6:36 pm, Demixl <jb100059(at)yahoo.com (jb100059(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Demixl" <jb100059(at)yahoo.com (jb100059(at)yahoo.com)>



Hey guys. Does anyone know how to register a trademark? sorry for offtop





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=491503#491503

http://forums.matronics.==================================================http://wiki.matronics.com[/url]<==========================;          - List Contribunbsp;                    -Matt Dralle, List Admin.</===========================================================

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:30 am Post subject: Crowbar OV Module

At 12:36 PM 9/28/2019, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Demixl" <jb100059(at)yahoo.com>



 Hey guys. Does anyone know how to register a trademark? sorry for offtop



 



 

 Read this topic online here:



  http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=491503#491503 	


   NOT A SUBSCRIBED MEMBER OF THIS

   LIST. TREAT AS SPAM.



 

 

   Bob . . .

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