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[OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

 
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art(at)zemon.name
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:07 am    Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

This is somewhat off-topic but I figure y'all know a lot about airplanes so you might have opinions about avionics, too.
I reserved space in my panel for a Garmin 430 WAAS or a Garmin 650. Now that Oshkosh is upon us, perhaps I can save a few pennies on an IFR-certified GPS that will fit in that hole. It doesn’t have to be a Garmin; that is just the size hole that I cut when I did the rest of the panel.

What suggestions do you have, both for equipment and vendor?

    -- Art Z.
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alec(at)alecmyers.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:23 pm    Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

I’m fond of the Avidyne IFD series

On Jul 13, 2019, at 08:05, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:
Quote:
This is somewhat off-topic but I figure y'all know a lot about airplanes so you might have opinions about avionics, too.
I reserved space in my panel for a Garmin 430 WAAS or a Garmin 650. Now that Oshkosh is upon us, perhaps I can save a few pennies on an IFR-certified GPS that will fit in that hole. It doesn’t have to be a Garmin; that is just the size hole that I cut when I did the rest of the panel.

What suggestions do you have, both for equipment and vendor?

-- Art Z.
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mike(at)vision499.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:22 pm    Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

Hello Art

If I remember correctly you have MGL equipment, there was a query on the MGL forum about this, the answer was that MGL was WAAS certified.

Not sure if this was your question or whether you wanted something in addition to  your system

Keep well

Mike

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Alec Myers
Sent: July 13, 2019 3:18 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

I’m fond of the Avidyne IFD series
On Jul 13, 2019, at 08:05, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:
Quote:

This is somewhat off-topic but I figure y'all know a lot about airplanes so you might have opinions about avionics, too.



I reserved space in my panel for a Garmin 430 WAAS or a Garmin 650. Now that Oshkosh is upon us, perhaps I can save a few pennies on an IFR-certified GPS that will fit in that hole. It doesn’t have to be a Garmin; that is just the size hole that I cut when I did the rest of the panel.

What suggestions do you have, both for equipment and vendor?



-- Art Z.



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art(at)zemon.name
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:07 am    Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

Mike,
Yes, I have an MGL system and their latest GPS, the SP-12, has the necessary certifications to be an ADS-B source. Rainier has posted the details but they were so detailed that my eyes glazed over while reading them. The bottom line is that the SP-12 is certified but the GPS which is integrated into the EFIS is significantly more accurate. Go figure.
I am seeking a navigation radio with a GPS receiver that I can use for flying IFR so I want both the necessary certifications and the database with approaches, SIDs, STARs, etc. And I want a proven user interface that someone else has already designed and debugged. I am willing to do a lot of experimenting but, when I am in the clouds, I want to minimize my risk and workload.
The MGL SP-12 is only GPS receiver, though. It lacks a front panel display, database, etc etc etc, so it won't meet my needs.
    -- Art Z.
On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 11:37 PM <mike(at)vision499.com (mike(at)vision499.com)> wrote:

Quote:

Hello Art
 
If I remember correctly you have MGL equipment, there was a query on the MGL forum about this, the answer was that MGL was WAAS certified.
 
Not sure if this was your question or whether you wanted something in addition to  your system


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gfarek(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:30 am    Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

No, hot GRT ,

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 16, 2019, at 11:21 PM, <mike(at)vision499.com (mike(at)vision499.com)> <mike(at)vision499.com (mike(at)vision499.com)> wrote:
Quote:
<![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Hello Art

If I remember correctly you have MGL equipment, there was a query on the MGL forum about this, the answer was that MGL was WAAS certified.

Not sure if this was your question or whether you wanted something in addition to your system

Keep well

Mike

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)> On Behalf Of Alec Myers
Sent: July 13, 2019 3:18 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions

I’m fond of the Avidyne IFD series
On Jul 13, 2019, at 08:05, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:
Quote:

This is somewhat off-topic but I figure y'all know a lot about airplanes so you might have opinions about avionics, too.



I reserved space in my panel for a Garmin 430 WAAS or a Garmin 650. Now that Oshkosh is upon us, perhaps I can save a few pennies on an IFR-certified GPS that will fit in that hole. It doesn’t have to be a Garmin; that is just the size hole that I cut when I did the rest of the panel.

What suggestions do you have, both for equipment and vendor?



-- Art Z.



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Michael Wynn



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 148
Location: San Ramon, CA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:06 am    Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

Hi Art,

I installed a GTN 650 in my RV8 when they first came out. Could not be happier with the unit. It is simple and intuitive to use.  Data updates are expensive, but that is the nature things aviation.


Michael Wynn
RV8
Livermore, CA


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donjohnston



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Posts: 231

PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

I had the IFR GPS from GRT but they didn't have the software updated. So I went looking for a GNS400W (or 400 that I would upgrade). For the same price I was finding them, Tim and Approach FastStack got me a brand new GTN625.

Took me a while to get used to the different UI, but it's pretty nice.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:59 am    Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

As Art points out, there are radical differences between a 'WAAS certified GPS' as a position source for ADSB, and an IFR certified GPS navigation radio. As far as I know, there are no experimental EFIS systems that are approved for IFR *navigation*. Perfectly fine to use them as flight instruments in IFR conditions, but until the FAA modifies their rules, you still need an IFR certified GPS navigator (complete with certified, up to date databases, approaches, etc) for IFR GPS navigation in the USA. I've seen some rumors that FAA might be considering an easing on that rule, so that non-certified GPS could be used for IFR, similar to non-TSO VOR/ILS receivers, but haven't heard of any official change.
On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 7:12 AM Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:

Quote:
Mike,
Yes, I have an MGL system and their latest GPS, the SP-12, has the necessary certifications to be an ADS-B source. Rainier has posted the details but they were so detailed that my eyes glazed over while reading them. The bottom line is that the SP-12 is certified but the GPS which is integrated into the EFIS is significantly more accurate. Go figure.
I am seeking a navigation radio with a GPS receiver that I can use for flying IFR so I want both the necessary certifications and the database with approaches, SIDs, STARs, etc. And I want a proven user interface that someone else has already designed and debugged. I am willing to do a lot of experimenting but, when I am in the clouds, I want to minimize my risk and workload.
The MGL SP-12 is only GPS receiver, though. It lacks a front panel display, database, etc etc etc, so it won't meet my needs.
    -- Art Z.
On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 11:37 PM <mike(at)vision499.com (mike(at)vision499.com)> wrote:

Quote:

Hello Art
 
If I remember correctly you have MGL equipment, there was a query on the MGL forum about this, the answer was that MGL was WAAS certified.
 
Not sure if this was your question or whether you wanted something in addition to  your system


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:03 pm    Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

Hey Art,

Don't know your budget, but an IFR rated friend replaced his Garmin 430 with an Avidyne 440. Slide-in replacement for the 430, and he says that it's got a much better user interface and some really nice features that 'anticipate' the next segment when flying a procedure.

At the time, they were offering a very attractive trade-in deal for 430s, which I suppose won't help you much. Smile

Charlie

On 7/17/2019 1:53 PM, Charlie England wrote:

Quote:
As Art points out, there are radical differences between a 'WAAS certified GPS' as a position source for ADSB, and an IFR certified GPS navigation radio. As far as I know, there are no experimental EFIS systems that are approved for IFR *navigation*. Perfectly fine to use them as flight instruments in IFR conditions, but until the FAA modifies their rules, you still need an IFR certified GPS navigator (complete with certified, up to date databases, approaches, etc) for IFR GPS navigation in the USA. I've seen some rumors that FAA might be considering an easing on that rule, so that non-certified GPS could be used for IFR, similar to non-TSO VOR/ILS receivers, but haven't heard of any official change.


On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 7:12 AM Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:

Quote:
Mike,


Yes, I have an MGL system and their latest GPS, the SP-12, has the necessary certifications to be an ADS-B source. Rainier has posted the details but they were so detailed that my eyes glazed over while reading them. The bottom line is that the SP-12 is certified but the GPS which is integrated into the EFIS is significantly more accurate. Go figure.


I am seeking a navigation radio with a GPS receiver that I can use for flying IFR so I want both the necessary certifications and the database with approaches, SIDs, STARs, etc. And I want a proven user interface that someone else has already designed and debugged. I am willing to do a lot of experimenting but, when I am in the clouds, I want to minimize my risk and workload.


The MGL SP-12 is only GPS receiver, though. It lacks a front panel display, database, etc etc etc, so it won't meet my needs.


    -- Art Z.


On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 11:37 PM <mike(at)vision499.com (mike(at)vision499.com)> wrote:

Quote:

Hello Art
 
If I remember correctly you have MGL equipment, there was a query on the MGL forum about this, the answer was that MGL was WAAS certified.
 
Not sure if this was your question or whether you wanted something in addition to  your system




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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:25 pm    Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

Charlie,
I am definitely considering the Avidyne IFD 440. I have a friend with one in his RV10 and he really likes it.
I am also considering the new Garmin GPS 175 and then add a second comm radio and call it done. (I already have a VOR/ILS/GS nav radio.)
     -- Art Z.
On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 4:19 PM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
Hey Art,

Don't know your budget, but an IFR rated friend replaced his Garmin 430 with an Avidyne 440. Slide-in replacement for the 430, and he says that it's got a much better user interface and some really nice features that 'anticipate' the next segment when flying a procedure. 


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:08 am    Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

Quote:
Hi Charlie et al-
It's been a while since I had my fingers in this stuff, but isn't the requirement for certificated GPS only for terminal operations?  IIRC, experimental GPS is fine for en route, but some other means is required for finding the runway.
TIA 


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:51 am    Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

I'm not IFR rated, and it's been weeks since I stayed in *any* hotel, so I'm not qualified to answer that. But my layman's understanding is that you can ask ATC for a 'heading' to fly direct to your IFR destination, and they'd wink, nod, & give you the clearance. Many years ago, my airline pilot Swift partner used to do that with a VFR LORAN receiver. Wouldn't be the same thing as actually filing GPS-direct, but has the same effect. 
You could be right about experimentals; I just haven't heard about it.
Charlie
On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 8:15 AM GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com (fly4grins(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
Hi Charlie et al-
It's been a while since I had my fingers in this stuff, but isn't the requirement for certificated GPS only for terminal operations?  IIRC, experimental GPS is fine for en route, but some other means is required for finding the runway.
TIA 


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:37 am    Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

I'm IFR rated, but only in helicopters (thanks, Uncle Sam!), but haven't
flown IFR in 35+ years. However, I do read a lot, and I probably have
stayed in a Holiday Inn at least once in the past year...

So here's the AIM section [AIM 1-1-17(b)(2)] that explains the rules:
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap1_section_1.html

And here's what that paragraph says:

Authorization to conduct any GPS operation under IFR requires:

(1) GPS navigation equipment used for IFR operations must be approved in
accordance with the requirements specified in Technical Standard Order
(TSO) TSO-C129(), TSO-C196(), TSO-C145(), or TSO-C146(), and the
installation must be done in accordance with Advisory Circular AC
20-138, Airworthiness Approval of Positioning and Navigation Systems.
Equipment approved in accordance with TSO-C115a does not meet the
requirements of TSO-C129. Visual flight rules (VFR) and hand-held GPS
systems are not authorized for IFR navigation, instrument approaches, or
as a principal instrument flight reference.

Jim Parker
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Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1700
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:21 am    Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

There are more benefits to an actual IFR certified GPS. If you are
flying victor airways you are stuck with the published MEA. If you go
off-route, i.e. direct, you are limited to the controller's MEA, which
isn't published. IF you have an IFR GPS lower minimum altitudes are
published, often 1-2000 ft lower here in the West.
You can't file to navigate IFR by anything but certified
equipment...which means VOR/localizer in the lower 48 states in most
cases. In the flat lands you can easily ask for a vector on a specific
heading and usually get it. IF your destination, or any alternate you
need to divert to has a VOR/LOC/ILS, fine, but all the smaller airports
are limited pretty much to GPS, or VOR with high minimums.
Most approach and departure facilities have strict routing in and out of
the area, that they need you on. Usually airways on departures, and
unpublished arrival "gates" in between airways. So, most anything works
enroute, but in the terminal environment, when ever the weather makes
them busy, they don't have time for hand holding.
On 7/18/2019 6:37 AM, Charlie England wrote:
Quote:
I'm not IFR rated, and it's been weeks since I stayed in *any* hotel, so
I'm not qualified to answer that. But my layman's understanding is that
you can ask ATC for a 'heading' to fly direct to your IFR destination,
and they'd wink, nod, & give you the clearance. Many years ago, my
airline pilot Swift partner used to do that with a VFR LORAN receiver.
Wouldn't be the same thing as actually filing GPS-direct, but has the
same effect.

You could be right about experimentals; I just haven't heard about it.

Charlie

On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 8:15 AM GLEN MATEJCEK <fly4grins(at)gmail.com
<mailto:fly4grins(at)gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi Charlie et al-
It's been a while since I had my fingers in this stuff, but
isn't the requirement for certificated GPS only for terminal
operations?  IIRC, experimental GPS is fine for en route, but
some other means is required for finding the runway.

TIA



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:12 pm    Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

Greetings all,


On a different but related subject,



Assume a Garmin GNS 430W talking to a Dynon Skyview through an ARINC 429 device, and ADSB in and out

What, if anything is necessary for the EAB builder to get it certified for IFR (enroute and approach) use as well as ADSB certification/verification?--- or can we just go fly in the system?
Thanks in advance
Rich





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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:21 pm    Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

If the "Operating Limitations" document that was issued to you by the
FAA (DAR?) include the IFR approval, you can just go fly. If not, you
have to petition for a new Operating Limitations" document to be issued
that does include that wording.

Odds are that the FAA will want a DAR sign-off. But given what you have
in your plane, that should be just a formality. (Assuming, of course,
you already meet the VFR Day/Night requirements as well, since those are
prerequisites to IFR approval.)

Jim Parker

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:49 pm    Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

Thanks, Somewhere in the back of my mind is that there is a procedure that you have to go through to verify that the adsb is operating correctly. Plane not flying yet-- almost done (15 years).


Rich





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Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:20 pm    Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

This comes up from time to time. Most operating limitations in the past
15 years require the 91.205(b) Day VFR equipment, and then state that to
fly at night VFR you must meet 91.205(c) and to fly IFR must meet 91.205
(d) requirements. Of course you have to altimeter certified to IFR
standards and static system that meets the leak down requirements.
Everything else is dependent on the airspace you will fly in, what
ground nav equipment you will utilize, etc. GPS certification is by the
manufacturer and the manufacturer's instructions.
Essentially, there is no airframe certification requirement, it is the
certification of required equipment that is to be installed.
ADSB is not an IFR requirement, it is an airspace requirement. You have
to install ADS-B equipment that meets the performance requirements of
the TSO. Certification is same as transponder, plus it is wise to get
the email report that it is working correctly.
As for sign off....none required, but because some of the equipment
install may be considered "major" under your operating limitations, you
may need to place a call to the FSDO to get how many hours they want you
to do Phase I testing of the changed equipment. You will spend more than
they required learning any IFR GPS.

On 7/18/2019 1:57 PM, jim(at)PoogieBearRanch.com wrote:
[quote]

If the "Operating Limitations" document that was issued to you by the
FAA (DAR?) include the IFR approval, you can just go fly. If not, you
have to petition for a new Operating Limitations" document to be issued
that does include that wording.

Odds are that the FAA will want a DAR sign-off. But given what you have
in your plane, that should be just a formality. (Assuming, of course,
you already meet the VFR Day/Night requirements as well, since those are
prerequisites to IFR approval.)

Jim Parker



------


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Kelly McMullen
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Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1700
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:34 pm    Post subject: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

It depends....if you are talking a new 1090ES transponder/ADSB, or
adding a UAT ADSB to existing currently certified transponder. There is
certification of any transponder, at install and every 2 years. Doesn't
hurt anything but your wallet to have avionics shop do a ramp check and
certify the transponder/encoder for VFR. ADSB is separate.
You need to ensure that all of the parameter programing is correct, for
tail number, aircraft size and speed. Then you fly in "rule airspace"
which can be under/over Class C or Class B "mode C 3o mile radius" or
just go up to 10,000 feet most anywhere not real close to mountains.
Then request a report via email. You don't have to do it, but if you
don't, and something isn't right, you will get a letter telling you that
you aren't meeting requirements.

On 7/18/2019 3:48 PM, argoldman(at)aol.com wrote:
Quote:
Thanks, Somewhere in the back of my mind is that there is a procedure
that you have to go through to verify that the adsb is operating
correctly. Plane not flying yet-- almost done (15 years)Disappointed.

Rich


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donjohnston



Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231

PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:25 am    Post subject: Re: [OT] IFR-certified GPS Suggestions Reply with quote

argoldman(at)aol.com wrote:
Thanks, Somewhere in the back of my mind is that there is a procedure that you have to go through to verify that the adsb is operating correctly. Plane not flying yet-- almost done (15 years).
--


I used this to verify my ADS-B install.

https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/paprrequest.aspx


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