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Mtow+

 
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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:47 am    Post subject: Mtow+ Reply with quote

What is the maximum mtow that anyone has flown with?

I am looking at the trip to usa.
Aircraft without fuel weighs 930.
Co pilot, pilot and 17 gals weigh 470.   My aux tank with pump and 10.5 gals weighs 75 lbs will be strapped to the wing tie bar up against the main tank.  
So we have 930+545=1485.   Add liferaft 8 lbs and odd and ends and itll be a smidgen over 1500.
I have flown with 1400lbs taking off at 8500 so I am sure that itll take off.
What the opinion of the group on this?  Anyone have any experience?  Does anyone foresee issues?
Will


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Roland



Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:33 am    Post subject: Re: Mtow+ Reply with quote

Hello Will,

I have the MTOM increase to 1450lbs (which I appreciate very much) and have flown with this (2 men up inclusive parachutes, complete camping gear in the baggage bay and full fuel) several times. The Europa handles this without any problems.

Just be aware, that you'll need a longer take off run and have a higher stall speed - for obvious reasons.

No experience >1450lbs however.

Regards and have a safe flight
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS TG 914


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budyerly(at)msn.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:48 pm    Post subject: Mtow+ Reply with quote

Will,
The maximum I have taken off with is 1600 lbs. Gary Leinberger has also.
I do not recommend normal operations beyond 1450 for anything resembling normal operations. I have a number of clients that operate at 1450 lbs. takeoff weight.
To ferry an aircraft, or one time flight in the best of conditions, consider using the following guide lines:

The CG should be narrowed slightly to 59 inches to 62inches above 1450 lbs takeoff weight until sure of operations with a further aft CG is verified. .

I flight tested my aircraft and a couple others (including motor gliders) at these higher weights and found if balanced about 61-62 inches at takeoff weight, the handling is quite acceptable and very comfortable on cross country as the fuel burns off to minimum fuel. Most Europa aircraft with proper Annex E full control throws will fly even at the max aft CG up to 1450 pounds, Due to loading limits of the baggage bay, I have not been able to load a 1600 pound aircraft to CGs beyond 62 aft...

Example: No other aircraft in my chapter could fly the larger linemen on the football team, so I did with full fuel. It was the first time I rotated and nothing happened. But it flew well as I had been there before and was confident in my and my aircrafts ability. The CG was 59 inches with the 350 pound pax, 190 pound flight bag, and full 100 pounds of fuel and a 10 pound flight bag and handling was adequate but the nose was definitely heavier than normal but flare out was possible at the higher weights

Remember: Anything forward of 59 inches at 1450 pounds, it gets a bit too nose heavy to enjoy, and keeping the nose wheel off during landing is quite difficult for some.

On to some guidelines:
Using simple ratio and proportions one can easily stay within the design stress limits of the aircraft. The gear are good to 1600 pounds on a smooth landing as the gear were originally the RV 4 gear designed for a GW of 1500 lbs. for normal operations. Our gear socket in the trigear may get wallowed out a bit if ops on rough fields is done for many hours but it takes a licking.

I use the following G limits for over gross on a placard and in the POH:

STRUCTURAL LIMITS:
+3.8g / -1.9g at 1370 lbs.
Max recommended:
+3.5g / -1.79g at 1450 lbs.
Max overload condition:
+3.25g / -1.6g at 1600 lbs.




The CG Range should be reduced by one inch to 59 max forward, 61.5 to 62 max aft above 1370 pounds unless tested.

Remember the stall speed increases with weight.  By calculation:
Stall Clean / Dirty:   45/49 at 1370
        48/52 at 1450
        49/56 at 1600
Warning: The pre-stall characteristics may be significantly reduced as GW is increase beyond 1370 and at CGs move near the forward or aft limit.

Handling characteristics should be practiced at higher takeoff and landing weights to determine the aircrafts handling characteristics. Some ideas for takeoff and landing testing at these higher loadings follows:

Takeoff:
Lower flaps to 10 to 15 degrees max for takeoff.  (Trigear) (Reduces that old sinking feeling if pulled out of ground effect.)
Rotation speed is higher for the trigear and mono.
Once pitch is set for takeoff with the nose wheel off the pavement (Trigear), or slight tail down pressure (Mono), do not over-rotate maintain a low pitch angle.
Takeoff speeds are increased so plan accordingly.
Maintain pitch and allow the aircraft to fly off the runway at a shallow angle.
Accelerate in ground effect until 65 Knots and reduce flaps approaching 75 Knots and climb at a shallow angle until desired climb speed is achieved.
Consider climbing at 80-90Knots for additional cooling.

Landing Pattern:
Increase approach speed to 65 to70 minimum using half to full flaps.

Note: If using an aux tank in the baggage area, after the fuel is burned off and with minimum fuel in the main tank, the CG may be quite far forward. Do a complete analysis of the CG and its shift with fuel loading prior to attempting flight outside the original POH guidelines.

Minimum speed on final should not be reduced below 60 until in ground effect with a forward CG.

Warning: If approaching steeply at 55 Knots and at reduced power setting the aircraft will develop a significant sink rate that cannot be recovered from at forward CGs, idle power and low airspeeds.

Practice like you are going to fly and you will fly like you practiced.

Regards,
Bud Yerly
Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 7:46:54 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Mtow+

What is the maximum mtow that anyone has flown with?

I am looking at the trip to usa.


Aircraft without fuel weighs 930.


Co pilot, pilot and 17 gals weigh 470. My aux tank with pump and 10.5 gals weighs 75 lbs will be strapped to the wing tie bar up against the main tank.


So we have 930+545=1485. Add liferaft 8 lbs and odd and ends and itll be a smidgen over 1500.


I have flown with 1400lbs taking off at 8500 so I am sure that itll take off.


What the opinion of the group on this? Anyone have any experience? Does anyone foresee issues?


Will


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h&jeuropa



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 634

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:01 am    Post subject: Re: Mtow+ Reply with quote

Will,

We use a spreadsheet from John Wigney to calculate weight and balance. A nice feature is that it shows how weight and CG changes as fuel is used. We can send you a copy off list if you like.

We often operate between 1450 and 1500 lbs and are creative with where we place items for CG purposes. We commonly have a few pounds on the lunch tray and we use large thin bags to pack clothing beside our legs - on the outside wall between the rudder pedal platform and the front of the seats. Sometimes we put very light items on the shelf of the D panel.

We measured and use additional moment arms for other locations. For example we use a different arm for items in the wells behind the seat than for items on the baggage bay. It is just a little more detailed than the factory figures.

We test flew (Monowheel) at differing weights up to 1500 lbs. Andy Draper’s main concern was strength of landing gear and reducing CG range. We had no problem except the original fat Monowheel tire rubbed on the brake caliper.

Remember too that you will be landing at lower weight than takeoff because of fuel use, so takeoff performance and CG location is more a consideration than landing performance.

Jim & Heather


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DuaneFamly(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:04 am    Post subject: Mtow+ Reply with quote

Good morning Jim & Heather,
As I am still within my 40 FAA flyoff hours, I would like to test my conventional gear XS for MTOW limits and would find that a spreadsheet like that to come in very handy. Would it be possible to include my email address when you send that out? I would appreciate it immensely.
Thank you in advance.
Mike Duane
N377EA
Las Vegas, NV
DuaneFamly(at)aol.com

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Jun 24, 2018, at 6:01 AM, h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net> wrote:



Will,

We use a spreadsheet from John Wigney to calculate weight and balance. A nice feature is that it shows how weight and CG changes as fuel is used. We can send you a copy off list if you like.

We often operate between 1450 and 1500 lbs and are creative with where we place items for CG purposes. We commonly have a few pounds on the lunch tray and we use large thin bags to pack clothing beside our legs - on the outside wall between the rudder pedal platform and the front of the seats. Sometimes we put very light items on the shelf of the D panel.

We measured and use additional moment arms for other locations. For example we use a different arm for items in the wells behind the seat than for items on the baggage bay. It is just a little more detailed than the factory figures.

We test flew (Monowheel) at differing weights up to 1500 lbs. Andy Draper’s main concern was strength of landing gear and reducing CG range. We had no problem except the original fat Monowheel tire rubbed on the brake caliper.

Remember too that you will be landing at lower weight than takeoff because of fuel use, so takeoff performance and CG location is more a consideration than landing performance.

Jim & Heather




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=481164#481164











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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:49 am    Post subject: Mtow+ Reply with quote

Thanks for all the responses...I conclude that 1450 is perfectly doable.
Will
William Daniell

LONGPORT
+57 310 295 0744
On Sat, Jun 23, 2018 at 8:51 PM Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:

Quote:

Will,
The maximum I have taken off with is 1600 lbs.  Gary Leinberger has also.
I do not recommend normal operations beyond 1450 for anything resembling normal operations.  I have a number of clients that operate at 1450 lbs. takeoff weight.
To ferry an aircraft, or one time flight in the best of conditions, consider using the following guide lines:
 
The CG should be narrowed slightly to 59 inches to 62inches above 1450 lbs takeoff weight until sure of operations with a further aft CG is verified.  .
 
I flight tested my aircraft and a couple others (including motor gliders) at these higher weights and found if balanced about 61-62 inches at takeoff weight, the handling is quite acceptable and very comfortable on cross country as the fuel burns off to minimum fuel.  Most Europa aircraft with proper Annex E full control throws will fly even at the max aft CG up to 1450 pounds, Due to loading limits of the baggage bay, I have not been able to load a 1600 pound aircraft to CGs beyond 62 aft...
 
 Example:  No other aircraft in my chapter could fly the larger linemen on the football team, so I did with full fuel.  It was the first time I rotated and nothing happened.  But it flew well as I had been there before and was confident in my and my aircrafts ability.   The CG was 59 inches with the 350 pound pax, 190 pound flight bag, and full 100 pounds of fuel and a 10 pound flight bag and handling was adequate but the nose was definitely heavier than normal but flare out was possible at the higher weights
 
Remember:  Anything forward of 59 inches at 1450 pounds, it gets a bit too nose heavy to enjoy, and keeping the nose wheel off during landing is quite difficult for some.
 
On to some guidelines:
Using simple ratio and proportions one can easily stay within the design stress limits of the aircraft.  The gear are good to 1600 pounds on a smooth landing as the gear were originally the RV 4 gear designed for a GW of 1500 lbs. for normal operations.  Our gear socket in the trigear may get wallowed out a bit if ops on rough fields is done for many hours but it takes a licking.
 
I use the following G limits for over gross on a placard and in the POH:
 
STRUCTURAL LIMITS:
+3.8g / -1.9g at 1370 lbs.
Max recommended:
+3.5g / -1.79g at 1450 lbs.
Max overload condition:
+3.25g / -1.6g at 1600 lbs.
 
 
 

The CG Range should be reduced by one inch to 59 max forward, 61.5 to 62 max aft above 1370 pounds unless tested.
 
Remember the stall speed increases with weight.  By calculation:
Stall Clean / Dirty:            45/49  at 1370
                                                48/52 at 1450
                                                49/56 at 1600
Warning:  The pre-stall characteristics may be significantly reduced as GW is increase beyond 1370 and at CGs move near the forward or aft limit.
 
Handling characteristics should be practiced at higher takeoff and landing weights to determine the aircrafts handling characteristics.  Some ideas for takeoff and landing testing at these higher loadings follows:
 
Takeoff: 
Lower flaps to 10 to 15 degrees max for takeoff.   (Trigear) (Reduces that old sinking feeling if pulled out of ground effect.)
Rotation speed is higher for the trigear and mono.
Once pitch is set for takeoff with the nose wheel off the pavement (Trigear), or slight tail down pressure (Mono), do not over-rotate maintain a low pitch angle. 
Takeoff speeds are increased so plan accordingly.
Maintain pitch and allow the aircraft to fly off the runway at a shallow angle. 
Accelerate in ground effect until 65 Knots and reduce flaps approaching 75 Knots and climb at a shallow angle until desired climb speed is achieved.
Consider climbing at 80-90Knots for additional cooling.
 
Landing Pattern:
Increase approach speed to 65 to70 minimum using half to full flaps.
 
Note:  If using an aux tank in the baggage area, after the fuel is burned off and with minimum fuel in the main tank, the CG may be quite far forward.  Do a complete analysis of the CG and its shift with fuel loading prior to attempting flight outside the original POH guidelines. 
 
Minimum speed on final should not be reduced below 60 until in ground effect with a forward CG.
 
Warning:  If approaching steeply at 55 Knots and at reduced power setting the aircraft will develop a significant sink rate that cannot be recovered from at forward CGs, idle power and low airspeeds. 
 
Practice like you are going to fly and you will fly like you practiced. 
 
Regards,
Bud Yerly
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)> on behalf of William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 7:46:54 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Mtow+  

What is the maximum mtow that anyone has flown with?

I am looking at the trip to usa.


Aircraft without fuel weighs 930.


Co pilot, pilot and 17 gals weigh 470.   My aux tank with pump and 10.5 gals weighs 75 lbs will be strapped to the wing tie bar up against the main tank.  


So we have 930+545=1485.   Add liferaft 8 lbs and odd and ends and itll be a smidgen over 1500.


I have flown with 1400lbs taking off at 8500 so I am sure that itll take off.


What the opinion of the group on this?  Anyone have any experience?  Does anyone foresee issues?


Will









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