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Z-13/8 Question

 
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kenryan



Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 284

PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:36 am    Post subject: Z-13/8 Question Reply with quote

On Z-13/8 given that there is already a 5A breaker in the wire from the main bus to the master switch, what is the purpose of the 22AWG fusible link in that same wire?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:54 am    Post subject: Z-13/8 Question Reply with quote

On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 11:33 AM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com (keninalaska(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
On Z-13/8 given that there is already a 5A breaker in the wire from the main bus to the master switch, what is the purpose of the 22AWG fusible link in that same wire?

The breaker the reset-able option (nuisance trips) for the OV protection circuit. It is remote from the bus ('unlimited' current source) to allow access by the pilot. Without the fusible link, the 18 ga wire would be unprotected between the bus and the breaker.


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kenryan



Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 284

PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:10 am    Post subject: Z-13/8 Question Reply with quote

Okay, that makes sense. But it spurs other questions, like why is the 18 gauge there at all, when the rest of the run is 20 gauge?

On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 8:53 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:


On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 11:33 AM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska(at)gmail.com (keninalaska(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
On Z-13/8 given that there is already a 5A breaker in the wire from the main bus to the master switch, what is the purpose of the 22AWG fusible link in that same wire?

The breaker the reset-able option (nuisance trips) for the OV protection circuit. It is remote from the bus ('unlimited' current source) to allow access by the pilot. Without the fusible link, the 18 ga wire would be unprotected between the bus and the breaker.



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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:15 am    Post subject: Re: Z-13/8 Question Reply with quote

Good catch. I think there is a typo in the drawing. The wire size should be 18 AWG between the 5 amp circuit breaker and the master switch. That wire will carry over-voltage module current when the module shorts to ground. 20 AWG is OK between the master switch and the voltage regulator.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:19 pm    Post subject: Z-13/8 Question Reply with quote

On 4/27/2018 2:15 PM, user9253 wrote:
Quote:


Good catch. I think there is a typo in the drawing. The wire size should be 18 AWG between the 5 amp circuit breaker and the master switch. That wire will carry over-voltage module current when the module shorts to ground. 20 AWG is OK between the master switch and the voltage regulator.

--------
Joe Gores
Well...the 20 awg is protected by the CB. Current will likely never get

above 3 amps in normal operation, and in an OV event, the overcurrent
duration from the crowbar firing would be measured in milliseconds. I
wouldn't be worried about a 5A CB protecting a 20 awg wire; I think I
probably have some short runs of 20 that are fused with 5A.

Charlie

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Z-13/8 Question Reply with quote

I was wrong in my post above. The fuselink protects the 18 AWG from shorting out. The circuit breaker protects everything down steam from there.

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kenryan



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:40 pm    Post subject: Z-13/8 Question Reply with quote

So, is the reason for the 18AWG section perhaps to set the size of the fuselink at 22AWG?

On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 4:11 PM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

I was wrong in my post above.  The fuselink protects the 18 AWG from shorting out.  The circuit breaker protects everything down steam from there.

--------
Joe Gores




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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Z-13/8 Question Reply with quote

The rule of thumb for a fuselink is 4 wire sizes smaller than the protected conductor. So I agree with you.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:50 pm    Post subject: Z-13/8 Question Reply with quote

And what would be the argument against all 20AWG with a 24AWG fuselink?

On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 5:16 PM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

The rule of thumb for a fuselink is 4 wire sizes smaller than the protected conductor.  So I agree with you.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:50 pm    Post subject: Z-13/8 Question Reply with quote

For me, it would be availability (I don't keep 24 awg on hand) and physical strength of the link. 22 is pretty tough; 24 is marginal.

No doubt it will work, though, if you want to use it.

Charlie

On 4/27/2018 9:48 PM, Ken Ryan wrote:

Quote:
And what would be the argument against all 20AWG with a 24AWG fuselink?

On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 5:16 PM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

The rule of thumb for a fuselink is 4 wire sizes smaller than the protected conductor.  So I agree with you.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:37 am    Post subject: Z-13/8 Question Reply with quote

At 11:48 PM 4/27/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
For me, it would be availability (I don't keep 24 awg on hand) and physical strength of the link. 22 is pretty tough; 24 is marginal.

No doubt it will work, though, if you want to use it.

This bigger-but-not-fat wire is a 'bus feeder'
to a distribution point of one. You could
use 18/22 or even put a maxifuse of, say
30-40A at the fuse-link location.

The fuse link seems a bit more 'elegant'
tied into the wire bundles as opposed to
sticking out like a sore thumb.



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:38 am    Post subject: Z-13/8 Question Reply with quote

At 11:48 PM 4/27/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
For me, it would be availability (I don't keep 24 awg on hand) and physical strength of the link. 22 is pretty tough; 24 is marginal.

No doubt it will work, though, if you want to use it.

This bigger-but-not-fat wire is a 'bus feeder'
to a distribution point of one. You could
use 18/22 or even put a maxifuse of, say
30-40A at the fuse-link location.

The fuse link seems a bit more 'elegant'
tied into the wire bundles as opposed to
sticking out like a sore thumb.



Bob . . .


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kenryan



Joined: 20 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:33 am    Post subject: Z-13/8 Question Reply with quote

Bob, I don't follow your language "this bigger but not fat wire is a 'bus feeder' to a distribution point of one." Specifically, why use the 18/22 when the rest of the run is 20. Why not just use 20/24?

Ken


On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 5:37 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 11:48 PM 4/27/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
For me, it would be availability (I don't keep 24 awg on hand) and physical strength of the link. 22 is pretty tough; 24 is marginal.

No doubt it will work, though, if you want to use it.

  This bigger-but-not-fat wire is a 'bus feeder'
  to a distribution point of one. You could
  use 18/22 or even put a maxifuse of, say
  30-40A at the fuse-link location.

  The fuse link seems a bit more 'elegant'
  tied into the wire bundles as opposed to
  sticking out like a sore thumb.



  Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:08 am    Post subject: Z-13/8 Question Reply with quote

At 10:24 AM 4/28/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Bob, I don't follow your language "this bigger but not fat wire is a 'bus feeder' to a distribution point of one." Specifically, why use the 18/22 when the rest of the run is 20. Why not just use 20/24?

Forgive me. "FAT wires" refers to feeders that
carry major battery/starter currents and generally
require no fault protection. If one is using
a fuse block as opposed to breaker panel, then
we would like to have the crowbar ov protection
breaker crew accessible. This requires runing an
extension of the power distribution on something
less than a fat-wire to the single breaker on the
panel.

As a practical matter, one could make that total
run from the fuse block to regulator with 20AWG
wire and no other consideration bit it fusible
link or other CPD (circuit protective device).

The fusible link suggestion simply honored the
legacy rule-of-thumb allowing small, short wires
to attach unprotected to a fat-wire fed bus. The
notion was that a hard fault on such wires would
terminate quickly and not generate much smoke.

We're sifting the really fine sands of risk here.
99.99% of all circuit breakers/fuses installed
on all manner of vehicle goes to the salvage yard
never being called upon to do its job to protect
vehicle and occupants from smoke/fire.

If we were boarding your airplane for a $100 hamburger
trip and you confessed to me that the feeder to the
crowbar ov breaker was 'unprotected' . . . my response
is most likely to be, "Where are we going? Ponca City
or Hutch?"


Bob . . .


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kenryan



Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 284

PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:29 am    Post subject: Z-13/8 Question Reply with quote

Thanks Bob. That clears some things up for me. You have not commented on using 20AWG with a 24AWG fuselink. I'm sure at some point the mechanical properties of the wire become an issue. Is 24AWG too small to be messing with for a fuselink?

Ken


On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 9:07 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 10:24 AM 4/28/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Bob, I don't follow your language "this bigger but not fat wire is a 'bus feeder' to a distribution point of one." Specifically, why use the 18/22 when the rest of the run is 20. Why not just use 20/24?

  Forgive me. "FAT wires" refers to feeders that
  carry major battery/starter currents and generally
  require no fault protection.  If one is using
  a fuse block as opposed to breaker panel, then
  we would like to have the crowbar ov protection
  breaker crew accessible. This requires runing an
  extension of the power distribution on something
  less than a fat-wire to the single breaker on the
  panel.

  As a practical matter, one could make that total
  run from the fuse block to regulator with 20AWG
  wire and no other consideration bit it fusible
  link or other CPD (circuit protective device).

  The fusible link suggestion simply honored the
  legacy rule-of-thumb allowing small, short wires
  to attach unprotected to a fat-wire fed bus. The
  notion was that a hard fault on such wires would
  terminate quickly and not generate much smoke.
 
  We're sifting the really fine sands of risk here.
  99.99% of all circuit breakers/fuses installed
  on all manner of vehicle goes to the salvage yard
  never being called upon to do its job to protect
  vehicle and occupants from smoke/fire.

  If we were boarding your airplane for a $100 hamburger
  trip and you confessed to me that the feeder to the
  crowbar ov breaker was 'unprotected' . . . my response
  is most likely to be, "Where are we going? Ponca City
  or Hutch?"


  Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:44 am    Post subject: Z-13/8 Question Reply with quote

At 12:26 PM 4/28/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Thanks Bob. That clears some things up for me. You have not commented on using 20AWG with a 24AWG fuselink. I'm sure at some point the mechanical properties of the wire become an issue. Is 24AWG too small to be messing with for a fuselink?

Actually, no . . .

We used a lot of 24AWG in the airframe wiring
on Premier . . . lots of grumbling at the outset
but I think if proved to be pretty much a non
issue. When crimping 24AWG into the red pidg
terminals, I do double the strip length and
fold the strands back to double the copper
in the crimp . . . and i'm not sure that
offers demonstrable benefit.

Play around with it on the bench and see
what YOU think . . .


Bob . . .


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kenryan



Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 284

PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:40 am    Post subject: Z-13/8 Question Reply with quote

Bob,

From my limited experience, I see no demonstrable benefit to working with wire as fine as 24AWG. Certainly the weight is a non-issue. 24AWG is downright dainty compared to 20AWG. I think it is criminal that Ray Allen uses such fine wire in its servo pigtails. To me, using such fine wire is just asking for trouble. 
On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 11:43 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 12:26 PM 4/28/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Thanks Bob. That clears some things up for me. You have not commented on using 20AWG with a 24AWG fuselink. I'm sure at some point the mechanical properties of the wire become an issue. Is 24AWG too small to be messing with for a fuselink?

   Actually, no . . .

   We used a lot of 24AWG in the airframe wiring
   on Premier . . . lots of grumbling at the outset
   but I think if proved to be pretty much a non
   issue. When crimping 24AWG into the red pidg
   terminals, I do double the strip length and
   fold the strands back to double the copper
   in the crimp . . . and i'm not sure that
   offers demonstrable benefit.

   Play around with it on the bench and see
   what YOU think . . .


  Bob . . .


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