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two different Z-33 diagrams

 
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rv8ch



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 246
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:36 am    Post subject: two different Z-33 diagrams Reply with quote

Hi,

I have a printout of a Z-33 that shows how to wire pmags so that you can do maintenance on them, but I can't find this diagram any longer.  The Z-33 I find is about Dual Power Path for Battery Contactors.
Is there an updated Z diagram that talks about the best way to wire the pmags so that  you can also do maintenance on them?
Thanks,
Mickey
Mickey Coggins


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:40 am    Post subject: two different Z-33 diagrams Reply with quote

At 02:34 PM 4/2/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Hi,

I have a printout of a Z-33 that shows how to wire pmags so that you can do maintenance on them, but I can't find this diagram any longer. The Z-33 I find is about Dual Power Path for Battery Contactors.

Is there an updated Z diagram that talks about the best way to wire the pmags so that you can also do maintenance on them?

I dug through the Appendix Z figures archives and don't
find anything different than the presently published
Z33. I'm mystified as to the need for wiring p-mags in
any specific manner to do maintenance.

Can you enlighten me as to the rationale for such
a feature? I can call the guys at EmagAir for
support if it proves useful.



Bob . . .


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rv8ch



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 246
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:15 am    Post subject: two different Z-33 diagrams Reply with quote

Thanks Bob - I've sent the drawing I have offline - I didn't want it to get out into the wild until you had a look as it might cause some confusion.  Regards, Mickey
Mickey Coggins



On 3 April 2018 at 14:40, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 02:34 PM 4/2/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Hi,

I have a printout of a Z-33 that shows how to wire pmags so that you can do maintenance on them, but I can't find this diagram any longer.  The Z-33 I find is about Dual Power Path for Battery Contactors.

Is there an updated Z diagram that talks about the best way to wire the pmags so that  you can also do maintenance on them?

  I dug through the Appendix Z figures archives and don't
  find anything different than the presently published
  Z33. I'm mystified as to the need for wiring p-mags in
  any specific manner to do maintenance.

  Can you enlighten me as to the rationale for such
  a feature? I can call the guys at EmagAir for
  support if it proves useful.



  Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:29 am    Post subject: two different Z-33 diagrams Reply with quote

At 02:34 PM 4/2/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Hi,

I have a printout of a Z-33 that shows how to wire pmags so that you can do maintenance on them, but I can't find this diagram any longer. The Z-33 I find is about Dual Power Path for Battery Contactors.

Is there an updated Z diagram that talks about the best way to wire the pmags so that you can also do maintenance on them?

Thanks,
Mickey

Mickey,

Thanks for your persistence . . . a little more
digging found that the drawing you have has
a typo and was intended to become Z-34 and fill
a gap in the list of z-figures.

This drawing says "revision L" which is mystifying . . .
I can't imagine the conversation that drove its
evolution through that many steps. But then, the
rev-level label may have suffered the same editing
errors as the Z-figures number . . . it's dated 13
years ago so this gray haired ol' fart will beg
your indulgence.

I'm wondering about the 'maintenance' thingy . . .
I think the only time you would want to do such
a thing is for hand-propping the airplane. I'll
be willing to bet that I had some discussion
with EmagAir about this and they stood back from
it about the length of a football field.

Given the risk for putting one's hands on a 'hot'
engine, nobody in this litigious world would
recommend it. Having said that, it's entirely
up to the owner/operator to evaluate their own
situation and skill set for getting the engine
going.

Not sure I'm going to publish that figure in
the book . . . for the same reasons. Hiding
behind that 'maintenance' term would not offer
much cover in a lawsuit.

Got lots of hours in a J3 that wasn't going to
go anywhere unless you got up close and personal
with that whirrly thing on the front.



Bob . . .


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rv8ch



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 246
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:45 pm    Post subject: two different Z-33 diagrams Reply with quote

Thanks Bob.  The maintenance mode is for setting the ignition timing - if the device has power, but the p-lead is grounded, then it's in a mode where blowing on the manifold pressure tube connected to the pmag will set the timing.  From what I see, the diagram achieves exactly what is needed, and is very clear and simple.  I don't see a case where it would decrease safety, or have any impact on hand propping.  

Here is an extract from the emagair manual that describes how to set the timing.  (http://www.emagair.com/downloads/)
Regards,
Mickey

  1. Set Ignition Timing:
    Install the ignition(s) in the accessory case at any attitude that is convenient. You won’t need to move them again, so secure them for operation. Temporarily remove the MAP sensor tube connection where it attaches to your aircraft system (not at the ignition itself).




  1. Rotate your prop to the engine “TC” (or 1-6 degrees after) timing target (see all notes for this section). By approaching this mark with the prop moving in the direction of normal engine rotation you can minimize play in the gears.
    Note 1: Be wary of old magneto timing habits. Magnetos are timed using the 25 degree (or other) BTDC marks. Here, you will time at TDC or slightly after (never before).
    Note 2: It does not matter whether the engine is on the compression or exhaust stroke for a particular cylinder.
    Note 3: On some engines, “TC” is stamped on the PROP SIDE of the ring gear, which aligns with a reference alignment hole on the starter. On others, the ring gear mark is on the ENGINE SIDE and lines up with the top side engine case seam. Consult you engine manual on how to locate TDC. See also: Lycoming Service Instructions 1437 (http://www.lycoming.com/support/publications/service-instructions/pdfs/SI1437.pdf).
    Note 4: Startup Firing

    •   Units with firmware V40 (and after) have an automatic 4 degree starting lag to make certain (start) firing occurs well after TDC.

    •   Prior to firmware V40, start firing occurs where the ignition is timed.
      These units can implement a starting lag by CLOCKING the engine 2-3 degrees AFTER TDC. This will shift startup firing, and will also shift the operating range (in the less aggressive direction).
      Background: Low-mass props can decelerate rapidly as the starter motor pulls thru each compression stroke (TDC being the top of each compression stroke). If the prop slows enough, it’s effectively become stationary when it reaches TDC. In these conditions, combustion can send the prop backwards. Delaying startup firing is a simple hedge against this risk.

  2. Setup Mode is entered by turning 12 volt bus power ON, WHILE the p-lead switch is OFF (grounded). If the LED is not lit up, you are not in Setup Mode.

  3. Blow into the MAP sensor tube (see note below for duration and pressure). After the first blow, the ignition will acknowledge by switching the LED to from solid RED to blinking RED.

  4. Blow into the MAP sensor tube a second time, and the LED will blink GREEN indicating the ignition timing has been set.

  5. Power cycle (12volt power OFF then ON) to enable operation and, provided the prop has not moved, verify you still see a green LED. Reconnect the MAP sensor tube to its operating location.


Note 1: If you are setting timing on two ignitions and the MAP sensor tubes are teed together, you can set timing on both ignitions in exactly the same way in exactly the same amount of time.
Note 2: The “blow” pressure required to activate Quick-Set is set rather high (minimum 0.5 psi) to minimize the chance that it could be triggered inadvertently. This 0.5 psi is similar to the pressure needed to sound a trumpet. As an additional precaution, we require pressurization for a duration of one second before the instruction is accepted.



Mickey Coggins


On 3 April 2018 at 19:29, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 02:34 PM 4/2/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Hi,

I have a printout of a Z-33 that shows how to wire pmags so that you can do maintenance on them, but I can't find this diagram any longer.  The Z-33 I find is about Dual Power Path for Battery Contactors.

Is there an updated Z diagram that talks about the best way to wire the pmags so that  you can also do maintenance on them?

Thanks,
Mickey

  Mickey,

  Thanks for your persistence . . . a little more
  digging found that the drawing you have has
  a typo and was intended to become Z-34 and fill
  a gap in the list of z-figures.

  This drawing says "revision L" which is mystifying . . .
  I can't imagine the conversation that drove its
  evolution through that many steps. But then, the
  rev-level label may have suffered the same editing
  errors as the Z-figures number . . . it's dated 13
  years ago so this gray haired ol' fart will beg
  your indulgence.

  I'm wondering about the 'maintenance' thingy . . .
  I think the only time you would want to do such
  a thing is for hand-propping the airplane. I'll
  be willing to bet that I had some discussion
  with EmagAir about this and they stood back from
  it about the length of a football field.

  Given the risk for putting one's hands on a 'hot'
  engine, nobody in this litigious world would
  recommend it. Having said that, it's entirely
  up to the owner/operator to evaluate their own
  situation and skill set for getting the engine
  going.

  Not sure I'm going to publish that figure in
  the book . . . for the same reasons. Hiding
  behind that 'maintenance' term would not offer
  much cover in a lawsuit.

  Got lots of hours in a J3 that wasn't going to
  go anywhere unless you got up close and personal
  with that whirrly thing on the front.



  Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:27 pm    Post subject: two different Z-33 diagrams Reply with quote

At 03:44 PM 4/3/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Thanks Bob. The maintenance mode is for setting the ignition timing - if the device has power, but the p-lead is grounded, then it's in a mode where blowing on the manifold pressure tube connected to the pmag will set the timing. From what I see, the diagram achieves exactly what is needed, and is very clear and simple. I don't see a case where it would decrease safety, or have any impact on hand propping.

Here is an extract from the emagair manual that describes how to set the timing. ( http://www.emagair.com/downloads/)

Ding Ding . . . I recall that now . . .
must be getting old.

Thanks for the refresher. I'll file
the EmagAir data next to the Z34
figure. Looks like it might be a good
addition to the 13th Edition after
all.

The title block speaks to hand-propping the engine.
Is this configuration useful to that
task as well?



Bob . . .


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rv8ch



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 246
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:07 pm    Post subject: two different Z-33 diagrams Reply with quote

Hi Bob, for hand propping, my understanding is that the device would need at least a bit of power.  There is some discussion on some forums about just using a tiny 9v battery.  I don't see anything in your diagram that would help or hinder hand propping - there would still need to be some external power source.  The manual says this:
Emergency Prop Starting – Both the E-models and P-models need outside electrical power to start. You cannot prop-start the engine with either type ignition if the battery is missing, or totally dead. However, a low battery that barely “bumps” the starter motor, or can only “click” the solenoid will likely have enough energy to power the ignition for prop starting. After startup, P-model ignitions can then power themselves. Caution: Do not attempt a prop start unless you are trained and are comfortable with the procedure.




I think your drawing would be a useful addition to the 13th and further editions of the AEC.
Regards, Mickey

Mickey Coggins


On 4 April 2018 at 00:27, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 03:44 PM 4/3/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Thanks Bob.  The maintenance mode is for setting the ignition timing - if the device has power, but the p-lead is grounded, then it's in a mode where blowing on the manifold pressure tube connected to the pmag will set the timing.  From what I see, the diagram achieves exactly what is needed, and is very clear and simple.  I don't see a case where it would decrease safety, or have any impact on hand propping. Â

Here is an extract from the emagair manual that describes how to set the timing.  ( http://www.emagair.com/downloads/)

  Ding Ding . . . I recall that now . . .
  must be getting old.

  Thanks for the refresher. I'll file
  the EmagAir data next to the Z34
  figure. Looks like it might be a good
  addition to the 13th Edition after
  all.

  The title block speaks to hand-propping the engine.
  Is this configuration useful to that
  task as well?



  Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:19 am    Post subject: two different Z-33 diagrams Reply with quote

At 12:06 AM 4/4/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Hi Bob, for hand propping, my understanding is that the device would need at least a bit of power. There is some discussion on some forums about just using a tiny 9v battery. I don't see anything in your diagram that would help or hinder hand propping - there would still need to be some external power source. The manual says this:

Emergency Prop Starting Both the E-models and P-models need outside electrical power to start. You cannot prop-start the engine with either type ignition if the battery is missing, or totally dead. However, a low battery that barely “bumps” the starter motor, or can only “click” the solenoid will likely have enough energy to power the ignition for prop starting. After startup, P-model ignitions can then power themselves. Caution: Do not attempt a prop start unless you are trained and are comfortable with the procedure.

I think your drawing would be a useful addition to the 13th and further editions of the AEC.

I do too . . . just need to refresh my thought processes
for publication of the drawing and it's companion narrative.
The hand-propping and Revision L thing was mystifying
absent any recollection of the conversation at the time.

The drawing could be modified to include a helper-battery
feature . . . if a 9v battery does it, the current drain
cannot be very high. Hmmmm . . . maybe the drawing
just needs modification to take 'maintenance' power
directly from the battery bus through a small fuse.
Even a very depleted battery will produce energy
at milliampere loads. With this change, the
maintenance procedure could be conducted normally
. . . and the hand starting procedure attempted with
a high probability of success.

The indicator light could be an LED paired with a
zener such that no light is produced unless the
voltage is, say 8 volts or more. This would provide
the double purpose of annunciating "maintenance mode
active" and/or "hand propping success probable".

What do ye think?



Bob . . .


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rv8ch



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 246
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:39 am    Post subject: two different Z-33 diagrams Reply with quote

Hi Bob,  The drawing is absolutely perfect for my application as-is.   Last time I hand propped an aircraft was my boss's tri-pacer in 1978 or 79, so that feature is not a high priority for me.  Might be worth an email to Brad to get his benediction, but what you drew in the z-33 seems to exactly match the recommendations in the installation guide, and in a way that is very clear.  Regards, Mickey
Mickey Coggins


On 4 April 2018 at 15:18, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 12:06 AM 4/4/2018, you wrote:
Quote:
Hi Bob, for hand propping, my understanding is that the device would need at least a bit of power.  There is some discussion on some forums about just using a tiny 9v battery.  I don't see anything in your diagram that would help or hinder hand propping - there would still need to be some external power source.  The manual says this:

Emergency Prop Starting – Both the E-models and P-models need outside electrical power to start. You cannot prop-start the engine with either type ignition if the battery is missing, or totally dead. However, a low battery that barely “bumps†the starter motor, or can only “click†the solenoid will likely have enough energy to power the ignition for prop starting. After startup, P-model ignitions can then power themselves. Caution: Do not attempt a prop start unless you are trained and are comfortable with the procedure.

I think your drawing would be a useful addition to the 13th and further editions of the AEC.

  I do too . . . just need to refresh my thought processes
  for publication of the drawing and it's companion narrative.
  The hand-propping and Revision L thing was mystifying
  absent any recollection of the conversation at the time.

  The drawing could be modified to include a helper-battery
  feature . . . if a 9v battery does it, the current drain
  cannot be very high.  Hmmmm . . . maybe the drawing
  just needs modification to take 'maintenance' power
  directly from the battery bus through a small fuse.
  Even a very depleted battery will produce energy
  at milliampere loads. With this change, the
  maintenance procedure could be conducted normally
  . . . and the hand starting procedure attempted with
  a high probability of success.

  The indicator light could be an LED paired with a
  zener such that no light is produced unless the
  voltage is, say 8 volts or more. This would provide
  the double purpose of annunciating "maintenance mode
  active" and/or "hand propping success probable".

  What do ye think?



  Bob . . .


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