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Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17

 
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backstagelive(at)gmail.co
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:11 pm    Post subject: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17 Reply with quote

Merry Christmas fellow builders!

Another builder and I are having a discussion about restraints for a
601-650. When I open videos sometimes i see pilots wearing just seat belts,
other times I see them wearing shoulder harnesses as well.

I am not an engineer, and I don't possess the skills of a designer, but I
have owned a wrecker service, and I have seen pictures of wrecked aircraft
that you would think you could walk away from, yet sometimes pilots aren't
that lucky. I know there are many forces at work including the G forces when
you hit the ground, yet engineers tell us that many of these accidents are
very survivable depending on what angle you hit the ground and the
deceleration force.

Here are some questions we would like to discuss.

How many of you just use the seat belt with no other restraints?

How many of you use a 4 point restraint and if you do, would you recommend
it to other builders?

Is there anyone using a 5 point restraint and if you are, where and how are
you attaching it to your spar?

Any help you can give would be most appreciated.

Joe in Oshkosh (and another fellow builder)


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psm(at)att.net
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:30 am    Post subject: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17 Reply with quote

Hi Joe,

I built and fly a similar plane to the 650 (CH601XL).  I use the three point belts included in my kit.

I don't see seat belts having the same purpose in light planes as they do in automobiles.  They are necessary to keep people in their seats in turbulent air rather than to provide protection in frontal collisions.  If you collide with a mountain or even a solid hit on a tree at normal flying speeds (120 kts)  you are going to die no matter what sort of restraints you have. 

Safety in aviation (in my opinion) comes from maintaining control of the plane along with keeping it away from solid objects.  Flying close to the ground or other solid objects is very dangerous.  Losing control of you plane for any reason is also dangerous.  Most airplane accidents result from dangerous flying such as hot dogging or high speed flight close to the ground.  There are also plenty of stall/spin accidents that start with an approach that passes the runway center line on turn to final and the pilot makes a steep turn while flying low and slow.  I suggest you would do a lot more to protect yourself and your passengers by installing an angle of attack instrument of some sort and learning how to use it to prevent stalls than by installing fancy seat belts.  I have a home built lift reserve indicator (LRI) that I built for less than $50 while waiting for one of my sub-kits which performs a similar function.  You can find plans for an LRI for free on the net.

I should also mention that learning to fly on instruments and handling unusual attitudes on instruments can also go a long way toward saving your life.  It would be good to go all the way and get an instrument rating but just being able to fly straight and level along with the 180 level turn and unusual attitude recovery are the really important skills.  Even for strictly VFR pilots it is only a matter of when rather than if that you will run into situations where lack of ability to fly on the gauges means you are unable to maintain control of your plane.

Good luck

Paul
Camas, WA
N773PM

On 12/25/2017 9:10 PM, Joe wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
-> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Joe " <backstagelive(at)gmail.com> (backstagelive(at)gmail.com)

Merry Christmas fellow builders!

Another builder and I are having a discussion about restraints for a
601-650. When I open videos sometimes i see pilots wearing just seat belts,
other times I see them wearing shoulder harnesses as well.

I am not an engineer, and I don't possess the skills of a designer, but I
have owned a wrecker service, and I have seen pictures of wrecked aircraft
that you would think you could walk away from, yet sometimes pilots aren't
that lucky. I know there are many forces at work including the G forces when
you hit the ground, yet engineers tell us that many of these accidents are
very survivable depending on what angle you hit the ground and the
deceleration force.

Here are some questions we would like to discuss.

How many of you just use the seat belt with no other restraints?

How many of you use a 4 point restraint and if you do, would you recommend
it to other builders?

Is there anyone using a 5 point restraint and if you are, where and how are
you attaching it to your spar?

Any help you can give would be most appreciated.

Joe in Oshkosh (and another fellow builder)


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ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:15 pm    Post subject: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17 Reply with quote

Hello Joe,
Seat belts are only to keep you in the seat in turbulence... Airplanes fly way to fast to survive any head on crash with anything other than the air Smile even a bird strike (without even noticing it your seat belt, can kill you)

Survival in airplanes is not question of seat belts, is only on learning Flying the Aircraft Safetly, have common sense, and stay calm (incluiding avoid "got to fly no matter what")

Uncontroled flight to Earth (spin stall or plain uncontroled descent because of cero visibility) will increase the speed of the plane geometrically fast! 99% impossible to survive in cse of crash (miracles happen)...

Is better to learn to stay calm in emegencies (to be able to ly your airplane down in the most controled manner), take some "hours" of emergency manover trainning, or just plain common sence when judging the weather (learning to be humble and say "We will not fly today" beacause of weather, or too close to dark, or...,)
Airplanes are built to fly, not to crash. A winged money transport will not fly.... Remember trust you airplane, trust your knowledge and yoursef...

Build safe, fly safe.

Gary.

From: Joe <backstagelive(at)gmail.com>
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 11:17 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17


--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Joe " <backstagelive(at)gmail.com (backstagelive(at)gmail.com)>

Merry Christmas fellow builders!

Another builder and I are having a discussion about restraints for a

601-650. When I open videos sometimes i see pilots wearing just seat belts,

other times I see them wearing shoulder harnesses as well.

I am not an engineer, and I don't possess the skills of a designer, but I

have owned a wrecker service, and I have seen pictures of wrecked aircraft

that you would think you could walk away from, yet sometimes pilots aren't

that lucky. I know there are many forces at work including the G forces when

you hit the ground, yet engineers tell us that many of these accidents are

very survivable depending on what angle you hit the ground and the

deceleration force.

Here are some questions we would like to discuss.

How many of you just use the seat belt with no other restraints?

How many of you use a 4 point restraint and if you do, would you recommend

it to other builders?

Is there anyone using a 5 point restraint and if you are, where and how are

you attaching it to your spar?

Any help you can give would be most appreciated.

Joe in Oshkosh (and another fellow builder)

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zeni - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

http://forums.msp; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
http://wiki.matronics.com

http://www.matronics.com/cont========================


- The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
Back to top
ashleysc(at)broadstripe.n
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:54 pm    Post subject: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17 Reply with quote

Hi Gary and Joe;
Hi All;
We had an accident here at little old Oak Harbor Airport two summers ago. It concerned the parachute company that was flying a modified C-182. The plane reached altitude, and all but one parachutist did what they came up for. One decided not to jump and somehow got into the right seat. The pilot spent too much time talking to NAS Whidbey, which was keeping them out of the way of some Naval activity and apparently didn't want to admit he had cut fuel on board somewhat short to take on all jumpers. They ran out of fuel on approach and hit a madrona tree, which are quite resilient. The engine and cowling went through a crotch, so the engine, cowling, and cockpit floor went through, but the wings and rear fuselage stopped dead. The aircraft separated into two separate pieces. The upper anchors for the restraints stayed with the wings and fuselage. The lower anchors went through the crotch with the front of the aircraft. At this point any experienced pilot is thinking, this isn't going to end well. Everyone is going to die. Well the actual outcome was that both occupants were thrown out onto the ground and walked away from the wreck. There was one broken collarbone. I do hope, but don't know, that it was the collarbone of the pilot.
Cheers! Stu.


From: "Gary Gower" <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com>
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 12:15:14 PM
Subject: Re: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17
Hello Joe,
Seat belts are only to keep you in the seat in turbulence... Airplanes fly way to fast to survive any head on crash with anything other than the air Smile even a bird strike (without even noticing it your seat belt, can kill you)

Survival in airplanes is not question of seat belts, is only on learning Flying the Aircraft Safetly, have common sense, and stay calm (incluiding avoid "got to fly no matter what")

Uncontroled flight to Earth (spin stall or plain uncontroled descent because of cero visibility) will increase the speed of the plane geometrically fast! 99% impossible to survive in cse of crash (miracles happen)...

Is better to learn to stay calm in emegencies (to be able to ly your airplane down in the most controled manner), take some "hours" of emergency manover trainning, or just plain common sence when judging the weather (learning to be humble and say "We will not fly today" beacause of weather, or too close to dark, or...,)
Airplanes are built to fly, not to crash. A winged money transport will not fly.... Remember trust you airplane, trust your knowledge and yoursef...

Build safe, fly safe.

Gary.

From: Joe <backstagelive(at)gmail.com>
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 11:17 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17


--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Joe " <backstagelive(at)gmail.com (backstagelive(at)gmail.com)>

Merry Christmas fellow builders!

Another builder and I are having a discussion about restraints for a

601-650. When I open videos sometimes i see pilots wearing just seat belts,

other times I see them wearing shoulder harnesses as well.

I am not an engineer, and I don't possess the skills of a designer, but I

have owned a wrecker service, and I have seen pictures of wrecked aircraft

that you would think you could walk away from, yet sometimes pilots aren't

that lucky. I know there are many forces at work including the G forces when

you hit the ground, yet engineers tell us that many of these accidents are

very survivable depending on what angle you hit the ground and the

deceleration force.

Here are some questions we would like to discuss.

How many of you just use the seat belt with no other restraints?

How many of you use a 4 point restraint and if you do, would you recommend

it to other builders?

Is there anyone using a 5 point restraint and if you are, where and how are

you attaching it to your spar?

Any help you can give would be most appreciated.

Joe in Oshkosh (and another fellow builder)

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zeni - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

http://forums.msp; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
http://wiki.matronics.com

http://www.matronics.com/cont========================


- The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
Back to top
ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:51 pm    Post subject: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17 Reply with quote

As I mentioned in my post... Miracless Do Happen! At my age (65) I am very happy with my Guardian Angel Job... Hang gliders, motorcycles (road and off road), race cars (quit $$$),parachute jumps (quit a few years ago), ultralights, skateboard (quit at 50... just in case) Several close calls but fortunate still here still enjoying my retirement... and keeping busy


From: "ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net" <ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net>
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17


Hi Gary and Joe;
Hi All;
We had an accident here at little old Oak Harbor Airport two summers ago. It concerned the parachute company that was flying a modified C-182. The plane reached altitude, and all but one parachutist did what they came up for. One decided not to jump and somehow got into the right seat. The pilot spent too much time talking to NAS Whidbey, which was keeping them out of the way of some Naval activity and apparently didn't want to admit he had cut fuel on board somewhat short to take on all jumpers. They ran out of fuel on approach and hit a madrona tree, which are quite resilient. The engine and cowling went through a crotch, so the engine, cowling, and cockpit floor went through, but the wings and rear fuselage stopped dead. The aircraft separated into two separate pieces. The upper anchors for the restraints stayed with the wings and fuselage. The lower anchors went through the crotch with the front of the aircraft. At this point any experienced pilot is thinking, this isn't going to end well. Everyone is going to die. Well the actual outcome was that both occupants were thrown out onto the ground and walked away from the wreck. There was one broken collarbone. I do hope, but don't know, that it was the collarbone of the pilot.
Cheers! Stu.


From: "Gary Gower" <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com>
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 12:15:14 PM
Subject: Re: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17
Hello Joe,
Seat belts are only to keep you in the seat in turbulence... Airplanes fly way to fast to survive any head on crash with anything other than the air Smile even a bird strike (without even noticing it your seat belt, can kill you)

Survival in airplanes is not question of seat belts, is only on learning Flying the Aircraft Safetly, have common sense, and stay calm (incluiding avoid "got to fly no matter what")

Uncontroled flight to Earth (spin stall or plain uncontroled descent because of cero visibility) will increase the speed of the plane geometrically fast! 99% impossible to survive in cse of crash (miracles happen)...

Is better to learn to stay calm in emegencies (to be able to ly your airplane down in the most controled manner), take some "hours" of emergency manover trainning, or just plain common sence when judging the weather (learning to be humble and say "We will not fly today" beacause of weather, or too close to dark, or...,)
Airplanes are built to fly, not to crash. A winged money transport will not fly.... Remember trust you airplane, trust your knowledge and yoursef...

Build safe, fly safe.

Gary.

From: Joe <backstagelive(at)gmail.com>
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 11:17 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17


--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Joe " <backstagelive(at)gmail.com (backstagelive(at)gmail.com)>

Merry Christmas fellow builders!

Another builder and I are having a discussion about restraints for a

601-650. When I open videos sometimes i see pilots wearing just seat belts,

other times I see them wearing shoulder harnesses as well.

I am not an engineer, and I don't possess the skills of a designer, but I

have owned a wrecker service, and I have seen pictures of wrecked aircraft

that you would think you could walk away from, yet sometimes pilots aren't

that lucky. I know there are many forces at work including the G forces when

you hit the ground, yet engineers tell us that many of these accidents are

very survivable depending on what angle you hit the ground and the

deceleration force.

Here are some questions we would like to discuss.

How many of you just use the seat belt with no other restraints?

How many of you use a 4 point restraint and if you do, would you recommend

it to other builders?

Is there anyone using a 5 point restraint and if you are, where and how are

you attaching it to your spar?

Any help you can give would be most appreciated.

Joe in Oshkosh (and another fellow builder)

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zeni - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

http://forums.msp; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
http://wiki.matronics.com

http://www.matronics.com/cont========================


- The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
Back to top
ashleysc(at)broadstripe.n
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:18 pm    Post subject: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17 Reply with quote

Hi Gary;
It looks to me that you know how to do dangerous things safely.
I was a caver, rock climber, snow and ice climber, scuba diver, Alaskan guide, worked for two companies that dealt with explosive atmospheres, dived to 1500 ft. in a diving capsule. Retired and got my Light Sport License at 70; 77 now. Building a Zodiac 601, XLB.
Cheers! Stu.
From: "Gary Gower" <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com>
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 6:50:58 PM
Subject: Re: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17
As I mentioned in my post... Miracless Do Happen! At my age (65) I am very happy with my Guardian Angel Job... Hang gliders, motorcycles (road and off road), race cars (quit $$$),parachute jumps (quit a few years ago), ultralights, skateboard (quit at 50... just in case) Several close calls but fortunate still here still enjoying my retirement... and keeping busy
From: "ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net" <ashleysc(at)broadstripe.net>
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17


Hi Gary and Joe;
Hi All;
We had an accident here at little old Oak Harbor Airport two summers ago. It concerned the parachute company that was flying a modified C-182. The plane reached altitude, and all but one parachutist did what they came up for. One decided not to jump and somehow got into the right seat. The pilot spent too much time talking to NAS Whidbey, which was keeping them out of the way of some Naval activity and apparently didn't want to admit he had cut fuel on board somewhat short to take on all jumpers. They ran out of fuel on approach and hit a madrona tree, which are quite resilient. The engine and cowling went through a crotch, so the engine, cowling, and cockpit floor went through, but the wings and rear fuselage stopped dead. The aircraft separated into two separate pieces. The upper anchors for the restraints stayed with the wings and fuselage. The lower anchors went through the crotch with the front of the aircraft. At this point any experienced pilot is thinking, this isn't going to end well. Everyone is going to die. Well the actual outcome was that both occupants were thrown out onto the ground and walked away from the wreck. There was one broken collarbone. I do hope, but don't know, that it was the collarbone of the pilot.
Cheers! Stu.


From: "Gary Gower" <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com>
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2017 12:15:14 PM
Subject: Re: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17
Hello Joe,
Seat belts are only to keep you in the seat in turbulence... Airplanes fly way to fast to survive any head on crash with anything other than the air Smile even a bird strike (without even noticing it your seat belt, can kill you)

Survival in airplanes is not question of seat belts, is only on learning Flying the Aircraft Safetly, have common sense, and stay calm (incluiding avoid "got to fly no matter what")

Uncontroled flight to Earth (spin stall or plain uncontroled descent because of cero visibility) will increase the speed of the plane geometrically fast! 99% impossible to survive in cse of crash (miracles happen)...

Is better to learn to stay calm in emegencies (to be able to ly your airplane down in the most controled manner), take some "hours" of emergency manover trainning, or just plain common sence when judging the weather (learning to be humble and say "We will not fly today" beacause of weather, or too close to dark, or...,)
Airplanes are built to fly, not to crash. A winged money transport will not fly.... Remember trust you airplane, trust your knowledge and yoursef...

Build safe, fly safe.

Gary.

From: Joe <backstagelive(at)gmail.com>
To: zenith601-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 11:17 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith601-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 12/23/17


--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Joe " <backstagelive(at)gmail.com (backstagelive(at)gmail.com)>

Merry Christmas fellow builders!

Another builder and I are having a discussion about restraints for a

601-650. When I open videos sometimes i see pilots wearing just seat belts,

other times I see them wearing shoulder harnesses as well.

I am not an engineer, and I don't possess the skills of a designer, but I

have owned a wrecker service, and I have seen pictures of wrecked aircraft

that you would think you could walk away from, yet sometimes pilots aren't

that lucky. I know there are many forces at work including the G forces when

you hit the ground, yet engineers tell us that many of these accidents are

very survivable depending on what angle you hit the ground and the

deceleration force.

Here are some questions we would like to discuss.

How many of you just use the seat belt with no other restraints?

How many of you use a 4 point restraint and if you do, would you recommend

it to other builders?

Is there anyone using a 5 point restraint and if you are, where and how are

you attaching it to your spar?

Any help you can give would be most appreciated.

Joe in Oshkosh (and another fellow builder)

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zeni - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

http://forums.msp; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
http://wiki.matronics.com

http://www.matronics.com/cont========================


- The Matronics Zenith601-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
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