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Lurcher
Joined: 16 Sep 2017
Posts: 3
Location: UK
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DuaneFamly(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:09 pm Post subject: Mono wheel versus Tri-gear |
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Both fly just wonderful. It’s how they handle on the ground that sets them apart. Tricycle gear is very tame while the mono “must” be flown every second on the ground or you can find yourself in trouble.But those are not the only two options. There are quite a few Europa’s with conventional gear.
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 23, 2017, at 1:39 PM, Hazel Jackson <hj(at)motorcycleresults.com (hj(at)motorcycleresults.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Guys - I'm rather hoping that you can help us with this please...
My husband and I are looking to hopefully buy a Europa in the not too distant future and we have received a lot of advice from non-Europa owners that we should go for a Tri-gear rather than a Mono wheel. I would very much like to know the pros and cons of both please, and in which circumstances each shines - from real Europa owners!
Huge thanks
Hazel
 Virus-free. www.avg.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2][/url]
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| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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dpark748(at)me.com
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:24 pm Post subject: Mono wheel versus Tri-gear |
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[img]cid:C96E1997-56BB-4F52-94EE-B859D3110903[/img]
Dave Park
Because it looks beautiful.
Dave G-LDVO
On 23 Nov 2017, at 21:39, Hazel Jackson <hj(at)motorcycleresults.com (hj(at)motorcycleresults.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Guys - I'm rather hoping that you can help us with this please...
My husband and I are looking to hopefully buy a Europa in the not too distant future and we have received a lot of advice from non-Europa owners that we should go for a Tri-gear rather than a Mono wheel. I would very much like to know the pros and cons of both please, and in which circumstances each shines - from real Europa owners!
Huge thanks
Hazel
Virus-free. www.avg.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2][/url]
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| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Jim Kelly
Joined: 25 Jan 2014
Posts: 69
Location: England
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:30 pm Post subject: Mono wheel versus Tri-gear |
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Hello Hazel, The Europa is a fantastic aircraft with a great following. There's also a third undercarriage consideration the conventional taildragger.
Best wishes
Jim Kelly G-BWEG
On 23 Nov 2017 9:44 p.m., "Hazel Jackson" <hj(at)motorcycleresults.com (hj(at)motorcycleresults.com)> wrote: | Quote: | Hi Guys - I'm rather hoping that you can help us with this please...
My husband and I are looking to hopefully buy a Europa in the not too distant future and we have received a lot of advice from non-Europa owners that we should go for a Tri-gear rather than a Mono wheel. I would very much like to know the pros and cons of both please, and in which circumstances each shines - from real Europa owners!
Huge thanks
Hazel
Virus-free. www.avg.com [url=#m_6081554351668498044_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2][/url]
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| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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JonathanMilbank
Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 384
Location: Aberdeen area
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:39 pm Post subject: Re: Mono wheel versus Tri-gear |
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Hi Hazel,
My Europa was built by me as a mono and first flew 20 years ago, before the tri-gear became an option. About 4 years ago I converted it to the tricycle configuration, after two VERY experienced friends who I allow to share it ground-looped while landing. Both have been instructors and both have adequate tail-dragger experience. I wanted to eliminate the worry about when it might be damaged again, hence the conversion.
My own flying experience stretches back over 50 years, including 10 years as a military pilot and thereafter 34 years flying commercially. I have about 650 hours flying the Europa as a mono and 274 hours flying the military North American AT6 (Harvard) WW2 trainer, which is a tail-wheel type. The Europa is more difficult on landing than the AT6, due to the absence of differential brakes to assist in keeping it straight.
I have greatly enjoyed flying this superbly designed aircraft in both undercarriage configurations and have no doubt that you'll love it too. Even so, unless you have considerable tail-wheel experience and/or get lots of training before being let loose alone on the Europa mono, I'd be inclined towards acquiring a tri-gear version (with 100+hp to overcome increased rolling resistance on soft surfaces).
No doubt there will be disagreement with this statement, but "it isn't if, but when" you'll have a mishap while landing a mono. I was just lucky not to be caught out similarly to my two friends. Furthermore if you do acquire a mono Europa, your best hope to avoid trouble is to fly it regularly and do a few hours each month. An hour or so every few weeks just won't cut it!
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:48 am Post subject: Mono wheel versus Tri-gear |
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Hazel, The simple answer to that question for someone with relatively little flying experience is that you would do well to go for the trigear. However, there are a lot of mono pilots out there, including myself who would not give up their mono at any price. It was of course the only configuration for quite a while when the plane was first on the market and all sorts of pilots managed to get on top of it, albeit with quite a percentage of incidents.
Briefly the advantages of the mono are: it is a bit faster and more economical; it is better at field landings- it was designed to land in unprepared farmers fields (I have done upwards of a dozen such landings without damage) whereas a trike is very likely to bust its nose wheel leg & prop; it is quite a bit cheaper on the UK market- and the difference might well pay for at least one ground loop & bust prop!
My advice would be to get a ride in both and ask the owner to let you taxi each when you will get an insight into the challenges of ground control of the mono, then make a decision. You could put out a plea on this network for someone in your neck of the woods to fly you. If you haven't made your decision before the next Europa Club AGM or the Rally I am sure we/I can arrange something.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2017-11-23 21:39, Hazel Jackson wrote: | Quote: | Hi Guys - I'm rather hoping that you can help us with this please...
My husband and I are looking to hopefully buy a Europa in the not too distant future and we have received a lot of advice from non-Europa owners that we should go for a Tri-gear rather than a Mono wheel. I would very much like to know the pros and cons of both please, and in which circumstances each shines - from real Europa owners!
Huge thanks
Hazel
[img]cid:15115204125a17f89c95dcd028234094(at)doctors.org.uk[/img] Virus-free. www.avg.com
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| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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Roland
Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:02 am Post subject: Re: Mono wheel versus Tri-gear |
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The Europa is the right decision anyway 
When I decided to buy a Europa I made a ride in the Monowheel with Andy Draper. Andy as a very skilled pilot had no problems in handling it of course, but I became aware, that it would be too much of a challenge for me as an average pilot, especially in windy/gusty conditions. So I went for a XS Trigear with a Rotax 914 seven years ago and never regretted this decision. I want peace of mind and don't need the thrill of the Mono. The Trigear is very easy to land and on the ground in general when one gets used to the steering with the differential brake.
Good luck with finding the right one for you!
Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS TG 914
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AirEupora
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 186
Location: Dixon, CA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Mono wheel versus Tri-gear |
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One of the things that has not been talked about is the landing surface that you will be using. The mono does good on glass fields. Where the trouble starts is on hard surface runways. Concrete, Asphalt and the number of plies the tire has. When the Europa first arrived on the shores of the U.S. I believe they were using two ply tires. From what I have learned the fiction between the runway surface and the tire that causes a twisting of the tire and if a wing tips as in dropped during the landing, think outrigger, and touches it unloads the tire and causes the aircraft to weathervane into the wind.
On glass field it will not twist the tire as much as the glass will allow the tire to move more freely as there is less fiction.
I believe most of the mono wheel pilots have installed tires with more plies and you have heard a lot less about ground loops.
If you have a number of hours in a tail wheel aircraft and you get good training from a mono pilot you should be OK, but any tail wheel aircraft can and will bite you if you don't fly it to parking. One of the best ways to practice is in a glider. They all have a mono wheel and they are fun to fly.
In many ways I wish I had biuilt a mono wheel, as they are faster. They look so nice when they fly by. With a 914 they are an outstanding airplane.
If you live it the U.S. 97% of all your landings will be on a hard surface!
Rick Stockton
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budyerly(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:17 am Post subject: Mono wheel versus Tri-gear |
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Good discussion on tri vs. mono. I couldnt agree more with Roland and David Joyce.
Full disclosure: I am the US Europa Dealer and an owner operator/builder.
Whether you choose a mono or trigear, the Europa is still the finest flying sport aircraft after all these years. It is delightful to fly, yet provides excellent cruise performance with toughness to absorb shocks and bumps and shake it off and is very repairable for builders who are unfortunate enough to have a minor mishap.
It is a love hate relationship between the mono and trigear. The trigear penalty of extra drag and weight with excellent ground handling (and no retract test or specialized equipment needed for maintenance of the wheel) vs a retractable mono that is lighter, has the potential for less drag, larger baggage capacity, looks cool, but has no similarity with a typical conventional gear unless the conventional gear is placed 7 inches apart. The mono is easy to land for me, even on asphalt, as long as I am sharp, on my game, proficient and have drug the strange field so I know if there are hidden swirly wind conditions near the touchdown point if cross winds are present.
Mono:
I have sat through a few oops landings, but believe it or not, also runway departures on takeoff. Old habits die hard, this is not a typical tail dragger. My bad experiences was not with bad or non current pilots, just a momentary lapse of applying the proper procedures at the right moment. On takeoff, keep the stick back hard until 35Kts, small precise rudder inputs, and do not allow the airplane velocity vector to go outside that 7 inch wheel footprint. On landing, the same is true. The aircraft must have its velocity vector and alignment dead on the runway centerline, wings level, at the precise moment of touchdown for a smooth roll on landing. It gets sporty if alignment is not precise or the stick is relaxed with or without power below flying speed. It is getting tougher for new pilot/builders to get insurance due to ground loop/prop strike potential. Second hand owners in the US with the mono do not fair well. In my opinion, it is their failure to get a proper checkout and loose their bad habits. Maintenance wise, the wheel well is the black hole of Calcutta. It is close to the ground (laying on the cold ground), and extra equipment is needed for tire removal, retract tests and lifting equipment.
Trigear:
You must have a speed kit or performance is dismal. That means more weight and time. Baggage bay area is lost, the cowl is more difficult to get off with a three blade prop around that nose leg, it has hand brakes which work well but for some are different, nose gear shimmy is a problem if set very light, and precise steering more difficult if set tight. Cross wind or strange field landings with pesky wind gusts are a piece of cake. Mile long taxi backs with a strong crosswind will eat brakes and may overheat them. Differential brake steering means there are two more brake pads to wear out and an extra brake cylinder to maintain. Field blown tire drills are rare. Brake failure is more likely. Brake failure, means no ground steering. If a tire failure does occur, the FBO has a trolley normally, and one only has to put his back under the spar and lightly push up and raise the wheel for the trolley or tire change. Piece of cake. With a tow bar, it is easy to haul and maneuver for a operator/ mechanic. There is good clearance for underside maintenance which allows working on a comfortable creeper.
I like both types of gear. But an owner operator must look at all sides of the issue for his long term ownership. You are doing the right thing by asking the questions now. Go fly both and if the test fly plane is rigged and properly balanced, with stall strips you are in for a treat.
Ive done some other writings on maintenance and techniques and they are either on my website, or emails are available in the matronics archives or Europa Club website with many other excellent tech articles. Ive attached my personal notes on flying the mono in .PDF format. The trigear never needed any landing or flight articles but maintenance techniques are available.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
Europa trigear, 914, Airmaster
Custom Flight Creations, Inc.
US Europa Dealer
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Roland <schmidtroland(at)web.de>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2017 6:02:24 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Mono wheel versus Tri-gear
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Roland" <schmidtroland(at)web.de>
The Europa is the right decision anyway
When I decided to buy a Europa I made a ride in the Monowheel with Andy Draper. Andy as a very skilled pilot had no problems in handling it of course, but I became Aware, that it would be too much of a challenge for me as an average Pilot, especially in windy conditions. So I went for a XS Trigear with a Rotax 914 and never regretted this decision. I want peace of mind and don't need the thrill of the Mono. The Trigear is very easy to land and on the ground in general when one gets used to the steering with the differentiol brake.
Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS TG 914
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houlihan(at)blueyonder.co
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:28 pm Post subject: Mono wheel versus Tri-gear |
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While your comments about the tyre are interesting and historically
accurate I doubt if any Mono is still using the original golf buggy
tyre. What you say about grass field strips is good but once you are up
to speed on grass moving to hard runways is not a problem.
I converted to a mono from PA28's with a instructor familiar with
Europa's it took about seven hours all on hard runways. The trick as
mentioned by Bud and others is to keep it absolutely straight and not
allow it to deviate one bit from the straight path, I believe that also
applies to all tailwheel aircraft from four engined transports to single
seat hotrods.
In my mind Trigears are great but Mono's are tremendous.
Just my views based on 15 years with a mono and now three months with a
trigear.
Tim Houlihan
On 24/11/2017 15:41, AirEupora wrote:
| Quote: |
One of the things that has not been talked about is the landing surface that you will be using. The mono does good on glass fields. WIf you have a number of hours in a tail wheel aircraft and you get good training from a mono pilot you should be OK, but any tail wheel aircraft can and will bite you if you don't fly it to parking. One of the best ways to practice is in a glider. They all have a mono wheel and they are fun to fly.
In many ways I wish I had biuilt a mono wheel, as they are faster. They look so nice when they fly by. With a 914 they are an outstanding airplane.
If you live it the U.S. 97% of all your landings will be on a hard surface!
Rick Stockton
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=475582#475582
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budyerly(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:01 pm Post subject: Mono wheel versus Tri-gear |
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Craig and Rick,
The Jab cowl has quite a slope, so I would prefer to cut in a light on the pilots side of the cowl. A lot of work.
I made an exterior hanging light for 12AY and sold it to John Kershner. Photo Attached in the pdf. It was just a Kuntzleman which was adequate for a painted runway with lights. Good for taxi. Lights up the runway paint about 3-500 feet out. I have never made another for the Kuntzleman as I just didnt like it as much as others.
Look at your off road guys. I made a swap of the Walmart special H4s on Gary Leinbergers to the Ridgid industries SR-Q2 with a bright dim switch. Either of these lights above will not light up as well as our 100,000 candle airliner landing lights but you wont feel like Helen Keller coming in to land either. If you have the room, the Aeroled and Whelen standard Par light replacements are better than the smaller motorcycle types, but at least twice the cost and amps. Ive never installed an HID but they really reach out there, but in my opinion too much weight and heat. More amps too.
I personally like the Rigid SR-Q2 as they are fairly inexpensive, use the high output Cree LEDs and are easy to mount. They dont make noise either. Go to youtube and take a look at Ridgid Industries Hi/LO SRQ2 Drive Beam Pattern Snake Racing test video.
I set these small LEDs all up out back of the shop, and the Spot Cree LEDs go out about 800 feet pretty well and the driving is just fine at about 500 feet and wide enough to drive down the road with just one. There are no reflectors out behind the shop, so there is no chance these off road lights would be OK on a grass runway on a pitch black night in my opinion, but fine for a painted runway. The Aerosun was not much different than the SRQ2 driving light, just a little harder to mount and the lens is not as tough. I had to do a paper for clients to explain to me and the guys what the heck a lumen, candle, luminance, lux and candlepower was as comparisons are a son of a gun without consistent standards. Ive attached that paper I made up from internet articles above also, as I know you do your research. Hell of a thinghow bright is bright. Who knows until you see it. I wish I had unlimited resources to test these lights out on a runway. Look at AvWebs Youtube videos and get some ideas on your own as well as the off road and motorcycle guys videos.
Good luck. If you are going to repaint the cowl anyway, cutting in a recessed light is reasonable. Making an external pod is not any easier, but if the plane is nicely painted, no repair work will be necessary, just the wiring. The choices we make eh?
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of AirEupora <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2017 10:41:34 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Mono wheel versus Tri-gear
One of the things that has not been talked about is the landing surface that you will be using. The mono does good on glass fields. Where the trouble starts is on hard surface runways. Concrete, Asphalt and the number of plies the tire has. When the Europa first arrived on the shores of the U.S. I believe they were using two ply tires. From what I have learned the fiction between the runway surface and the tire that causes a twisting of the tire and if a wing tips as in dropped during the landing, think outrigger, and touches it unloads the tire and causes the aircraft to weathervane into the wind.
On glass field it will not twist the tire as much as the glass will allow the tire to move more freely as there is less fiction.
I believe most of the mono wheel pilots have installed tires with more plies and you have heard a lot less about ground loops.
If you have a number of hours in a tail wheel aircraft and you get good training from a mono pilot you should be OK, but any tail wheel aircraft can and will bite you if you don't fly it to parking. One of the best ways to practice is in a glider. They all have a mono wheel and they are fun to fly
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erichdtrombley(at)juno.co
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:45 pm Post subject: Mono wheel versus Tri-gear |
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I have to echo Tim’s experience. I transitioned into the Europa Mono with a couple of hundred hours of Cessna 152 and 172 time and zero tailwheel time. I did my tailwheel transition in the Mono and got signed off after 10 hours. I had two really good instructions, Bob Lindsay, test pilot extraordinaire, and another fellow that Bob provided transition training to. As Bob was only available for a couple of days he worked with my local instructor/friend and got him up to speed after a couple of hours. I ended up with half my time with each. I also did a bit of aggressive taxiing with Kim Prout prior to the first flight which really helped as I got to explore the limits of ground handling.
The only tailwheel time I have is in my Mono; 750 hours over almost 15 years of flying. With the exception of a handful of landings on turf, I operate exclusively off of hard surfaces. Truth be told I am more nervous on turf, worried mostly about uneven surfaces. I guess for me, it really comes down to what I have more experience with. As for cross wind landings I can’t say that it is really any different in the Mono than the Cessna’s I learned in. I crab into the wind vs. the wing low technique. I have landed with 15+ mph direct cross wind without issue. Anything less than 90 degree provides for a slower ground speed and less roll out which is a plus. I do, however, try to make sure the plane is tracking straight at touchdown, although, I haven’t always been successful. The key for me, is quick jabs of the rudder pedals to keep it straight...dancing feet. If you apply constant rudder until the plane changes direction it’s too late, your off to the races.
I love my Mono. The only downside is the availability of hull insurance at what I consider a reasonable price. I have a 914 in my Mono and fly in the high teens and usually see a true airspeed of 165-171 kts depending on atmospheric conditions, burning 5.3 gal/hrs. For cross country flying that’s hard to beat. And lastly, she is a head turner. Oh, and did I mention, I love my Mono.
My two cents.
Erich Trombley
N28ET
Classic Mono 914
____________________________________________________________
I Felt Like A Snake That Had Swallowed A Watermelon
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http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5a18e6f0bf25d66ef4b65st01vuc
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Fred Klein
Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:43 pm Post subject: Mono wheel versus Tri-gear |
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| Quote: | On Nov 24, 2017, at 6:59 PM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:
I personally like the Rigid SR-Q2 as they are fairly inexpensive, use the high output Cree LEDs and are easy to mount. They don’t make noise either.
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Bud,
Given the dimensions of the housing, have you ever considered mounting them within the leading edge of the wing along w/ a polycarbonate or plexiglass cover conforming to the shape of the airfoil?
F.
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Lurcher
Joined: 16 Sep 2017
Posts: 3
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:58 pm Post subject: Mono wheel versus Tri-gear |
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Hi Guys
I have been completely overwhelmed by the effort you have made to help us with our decision! The information is truly invaluable and it is clear we will be joining a very special group of aviators.
A huge thank you on behalf of myself and my husband to you all.
Hazel
Virus-free. www.avg.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2][/url]
On 25 November 2017 at 20:41, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
| Quote: | On Nov 24, 2017, at 6:59 PM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:
I personally like the Rigid SR-Q2 as they are fairly inexpensive, use the high output Cree LEDs and are easy to mount. They don’t make noise either.
|
Bud,
Given the dimensions of the housing, have you ever considered mounting them within the leading edge of the wing along w/ a polycarbonate or plexiglass cover conforming to the shape of the airfoil?
F.
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--
Hazel Jackson
Motorcycle Racer Magazine
484 Didsbury Road Stockport
Cheshire UK SK4 3BS
0161 443 1000 / 07831 577 654
www.motorcycleracer.com
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DuaneFamly(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:16 pm Post subject: Mono wheel versus Tri-gear |
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I may have missed it, but where are you guys located? USA, UK, someplace else in the world?
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 25, 2017, at 12:56 PM, Hazel Jackson <hj(at)motorcycleresults.com (hj(at)motorcycleresults.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Guys
I have been completely overwhelmed by the effort you have made to help us with our decision! The information is truly invaluable and it is clear we will be joining a very special group of aviators.
A huge thank you on behalf of myself and my husband to you all.
Hazel
Virus-free. www.avg.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2][/url]
On 25 November 2017 at 20:41, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
| Quote: | On Nov 24, 2017, at 6:59 PM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:
I personally like the Rigid SR-Q2 as they are fairly inexpensive, use the high output Cree LEDs and are easy to mount. They don’t make noise either.
|
Bud,
Given the dimensions of the housing, have you ever considered mounting them within the leading edge of the wing along w/ a polycarbonate or plexiglass cover conforming to the shape of the airfoil?
F.
|
--
Hazel Jackson
Motorcycle Racer Magazine
484 Didsbury Road Stockport
Cheshire UK SK4 3BS
0161 443 1000 / 07831 577 654
www.motorcycleracer.com
|
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