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Can the 912ULS be hand started?

 
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Mike M



Joined: 23 May 2009
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Location: Los Lunas, NM

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:43 pm    Post subject: Can the 912ULS be hand started? Reply with quote

I recently landed at a remote dry lake in my RV-4 with a Lycoming engine. When I attempted to start, my starter would not engage. Luckily I was able to hand prop the engine to get it started. If a similar situation occurred with my ROTAX 912 ULS powered RANS, would I be able to hand prop to get the engine started?

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Roger Lee



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Can the 912ULS be hand started? Reply with quote

It isn't supposed to be done and can get you hurt. I did see a video once where someone pulled it off, but that was a rare exception. This is not a Lycoming or Conti. with a low compression ratio and loose tolerances with mags.

We have almost 11:1 compression and a CDI ignition which requires the engine to rotate at a certain speed to cause the trigger coils to fire enough energy to cause a spark and then we hope that compression doesn't kickback and break our hand.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:24 pm    Post subject: Can the 912ULS be hand started? Reply with quote

Hi I Mike
Never done it myself but there is a guy on YouTube who has hand propped a 912...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JUBrHYsh4E
Sacha

On 9 Jul 2014, at 18:43, "Mike M" <mjwings(at)msn.com (mjwings(at)msn.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Mike M" <mjwings(at)msn.com (mjwings(at)msn.com)>

I recently landed at a remote dry lake in my RV-4 with a Lycoming engine. When I attempted to start, my starter would not engage. Luckily I was able to hand prop the engine to get it started. If a similar situation occurred with my ROTAX 912 ULS powered RANS, would I be able to hand prop to get the engine started?

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Mike Marker


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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
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Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:43 pm    Post subject: Can the 912ULS be hand started? Reply with quote

Mike M/Folks:

Prior to my first flight to Alaska in 1994, I hand propped
my 912 80 HP. There wasn't a 912UL designation in 1994. I
hand propped the 912 once to insure I could if the need
arose when I was on the ground in a remote location.
Biggest problem hand propping was the Warp Drive Prop with
very thin, sharp blade edges. A major consideration hand
propping the 912 when alone in a remote location was the
possibility of injury. Was the gamble of injury worth
getting the 912 started, or wait until someone came along
with jumper cables.

My current engine, a 912ULS, has never been hand propped and
I do not intend to attempt it. The increased compression
ratio would make it difficult to hand prop, especially
equipped with the Warp Drive. Not worth the chance of
getting injured. If it was a life or death situation, I
might give it a try. Gloves would help to pull the prop
through.

john h
Kolb MKIII
White Sulphur Springs, Montana

**************************************


I recently landed at a remote dry lake in my RV-4 with a
Lycoming engine. When I attempted to start, my starter
would not engage. Luckily I was able to hand prop the
engine to get it started. If a similar situation occurred
with my ROTAX 912 ULS powered RANS, would I be able to hand
prop to get the engine started?

--------
Mike Marker


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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama
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Mike M



Joined: 23 May 2009
Posts: 6
Location: Los Lunas, NM

PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:16 am    Post subject: Re: Can the 912ULS be hand started? Reply with quote

Thanks for the good info on hand starting issues for the 912S...high compression, potential kick back, and thin prop blades and achieving sufficient RPM to for the ignition system to spark.

I can foresee a situation where a battery dies or starter system fails at a remote landing site, which would result in a long walk out of 10- 20 miles. In this case I would be like to have the option to attempt a hand start. It would be good to know that it is at least possible to hand start the 912S based on the knowledge that someone out there in the ROTAX world has successfully done it.


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rparigoris



Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 471

PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:56 am    Post subject: Can the 912ULS be hand started? Reply with quote

Hi Group
FWIW I took a bike ride by the model flying field a few weeks ago and took a look at a 3 cell 1300mA Lithium Polymer pack.
It was a Thunder something or other (Thunder Power?). Anyway it was about a third the size of a pack of cigarettes and said it could output 80C!
The guy said folks have gotten stuck with their cars and used them to get going again.
If you are not charging and discharging a battery in flight I think the chance of a battery getting all hot and bothered are pretty remote. That's not the case after you just started your plane with it though, so careful monitoring for a few minutes is prudent.
I believe the self discharge rate is not too bad on LiPos. We know you are going to get a substantial voltage drop, so it would be worth someone considering this option to try a 3 cell pack, perhaps even a 4 cell pack.
I have a NiMh total loss pack for my 914. It can a fuel pump, in an emergency can probably get me started too:
http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=87439
Ron Parigoris [quote][b]


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:05 am    Post subject: Can the 912ULS be hand started? Reply with quote

There are now lithium ion packs that are smaller than a paperback that can start your car. Here is a link to a review of three of them:

http://www.cnet.com/news/pocket-sized-jump-starters/

-- Craig

On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 4:56 AM, <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us (rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us)> wrote:
[quote]
Hi Group
FWIW I took a bike ride by the model flying field a few weeks ago and took a look at a 3 cell 1300mA Lithium Polymer pack.
It was a Thunder something or other (Thunder Power?). Anyway it was about a third the size of a pack of cigarettes and said it could output 80C!
The guy said folks have gotten stuck with their cars and used them to get going again.
If you are not charging and discharging a battery in flight I think the chance of a battery getting all hot and bothered are pretty remote. That's not the case after you just started your plane with it though, so careful monitoring for a few minutes is prudent.
I believe the self discharge rate is not too bad on LiPos. We know you are going to get a substantial voltage drop, so it would be worth someone considering this option to try a 3 cell pack, perhaps even a 4 cell pack.
I have a NiMh total loss pack for my 914. It can a fuel pump, in an emergency can probably get me started too:
http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=87439
Ron Parigoris
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BARRY CHECK 6



Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 669

PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:42 pm    Post subject: Can the 912ULS be hand started? Reply with quote

Good question Mike!

Let's see...
Which prop do you have?
Two blade or Three blade?
With a three blade your chances of getting hit with the following blade are 66.6% higher than with a two blade.
The gearbox is a reduction in RPM from the engine to the prop. So, reversing the gear reduction the engine should turn Faster than the prop increasing your chances of starting... As long as you have the strength to swing the prop.
What kind of ignition system do you have? Things like vacuum advancing decrease your chances of hand propping because a higher Engine RPM is required for starting.
If you have a RANS Pusher, I would think you would be in deep yogurt!
If a tractor, yea, you do stand a betterchance. Not great, but better.
Anyone out ther with success in this area. Anyone that is still in one piece?
Barry



On Wednesday, July 9, 2014, Mike M <mjwings(at)msn.com (mjwings(at)msn.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Mike M" <[url=javascript:;]mjwings(at)msn.com[/url]>

I recently landed at a remote dry lake in my RV-4 with a Lycoming engine. When I attempted to start, my starter would not engage. Luckily I was able to hand prop the engine to get it started. If a similar situation occurred with my ROTAX 912 ULS powered RANS, would I be able to hand prop to get the engine started?

--------
Mike Marker




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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:55 pm    Post subject: Can the 912ULS be hand started? Reply with quote

I think typically you have to have the engine turning at 300 rpm or greater for the engine to even start. That's why when you try and start on a dead battery or a low battery may result in no start. On Jul 10, 2014 6:46 PM, "FLYaDIVE" <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:[quote] Good question Mike!

Let's see...
Which prop do you have?
Two blade or Three blade?
With a three blade your chances of getting hit with the following blade are 66.6% higher than with a two blade.
The gearbox is a reduction in RPM from the engine to the prop.  So, reversing the gear reduction the engine should turn Faster than the prop increasing your chances of starting...  As long as you have the strength to swing the prop.  
What kind of ignition system do you have?  Things like vacuum advancing decrease your chances of hand propping because a higher Engine RPM is required for starting.
If you have a RANS Pusher, I would think you would be in deep yogurt!
If a tractor, yea, you do stand a better chance.  Not great, but better.
Anyone out ther with success in this area.  Anyone that is still in one piece?
Barry



On Wednesday, July 9, 2014, Mike M <mjwings(at)msn.com (mjwings(at)msn.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Mike M" <mjwings(at)msn.com>

I recently landed at a remote dry lake in my RV-4 with a Lycoming engine.  When I attempted to start, my starter would not engage.  Luckily I was able to hand prop the engine to get it started.  If a similar situation occurred with my ROTAX 912 ULS powered RANS, would I be able to hand prop to get the engine started?

--------
Mike Marker




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johngilpin



Joined: 23 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:04 am    Post subject: Can the 912ULS be hand started? Reply with quote

No way can you spin a 912S fast enough by hand to start it.

I've seen one of these pocket-sized jump starters in action, and it's truly amazing!
Definitely the way to go.
Quote:
http://www.cnet.com/news/pocket-sized-jump-starters/

Quote:
JG


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Roger Lee



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Can the 912ULS be hand started? Reply with quote

I agree with everyone else post. Forget about hand propping as a back up. It most likely will never happen so I wouldn't even put it in my mental toolbox.

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RitaClark



Joined: 09 Oct 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: Can the 912ULS be hand started? Reply with quote

Disregard hand propping as a move down If you have a RANS Pusher, I would figure you would be in profound yogurt!
http://automobiledecor.com/winplus-car-jump-start-review/


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