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Questions for the alternator mavens
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:17 am    Post subject: Questions for the alternator mavens Reply with quote

At 10:58 PM 8/8/2017, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com>



On 8/8/2017 4:20 PM, Charlie England wrote:
Quote:
on these automotive voltage regulators, is it possible to adjust the voltage high enough to keep an Odyssey battery happy?

You can always accomplish that if you put a voltage divider in front of the sense terminal of the regulator... say it's an 95%/5% divider... if the regulator's setpoint is 14 volts, you'll fool it into providing 14.7 volts. If you really want to get fancy, use a linear potentiometer in series with a fixed resistor to fine tune the voltage. Provide some means for locking the pot's shaft in place!

Unfortunately, there are few if not zero automotive
regulators with separate sense leads. I don't
recall if Sebastian told us what kind of regulator
he was using . . . but you're right. I've used
that work-around.

On one occasion, I was able to up-adjust an automotive
3 wire regulator by putting a diode in series with the
field-supply/bus-sense lead. Of course, this raised
the bus by about 0.6 volts . . . which in this case
was appropriate. Had a reader try to up-adjust a
3-terminal regulator with a resistor but he ended up
duplicating the galloping-ammeter syndrome.

Waayyyy back when, I opened up one of the 4-terminal
'ford' regulators and researched the voltage-set
divider. I brought a 'steering' lead out on the
unused "I" terminal for an external voltage adjust
pot. One could repeat that exercise . . . as long
as the bus-to-regulator resistance is low (usually
no problem except in old Cessnas and Pipers), these
automotive regulators are good value. Incorporating the
pot would add a quantum jump to their suitability
to task.

[img]cid:.0[/img]

Here's one version of the VR166 after market regulators
but not the one I "jeeped". As soon as I've got
about 4 other projects off the bench, I'll see
I can repeat the exercise on a newer device.



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:05 am    Post subject: Questions for the alternator mavens Reply with quote

If your evaluation comes up with a good low cost voltmeter for any shape
hole I'll look forward to hearing about it.

How do your charge your batteries on the bench?

Right now I don't. I will be doing my annual inspection next week and
setting something up to do so is on the list. I wasn't going to bother the
list about how to do this as I'm sure the archives have all the info I need


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:50 am    Post subject: Questions for the alternator mavens Reply with quote

Quote:
If your evaluation comes up with a good low cost voltmeter for any
shape hole I'll look forward to hearing about it.


  How do your charge your batteries on the bench?


Right now I don't.

How did your battery get charged overnight?


Quote:
Called the battery shop this morning. The battery charged to 13.3 but only put out 101 amps cranking. Odyssey says PC545 CCA is 150.

The 13.3 number is suspect . . . open circuit voltage for
a fully charged battery needs to be measured after the
battery has been 'rested' for 4-6 hours. A fully charged
SVLA at room temperature will show just under 13.0 volts.

The 101 cranking value MAY be a good indicator of battery
condition . . . but if it was measured with one of those
hand-held battery analyzer thingies like WalMart uses
to sell you new batteries, it won't be the same number
that Odyssey would get in their lab.

We measure 'cranking current' by placing as nearly
constant a load on the battery high enough to pull it
down to 9 volts. It takes a critter like one of these:

[img]cid:.0[/img]

AT THE END OF 15 SECONDS, read the load current
at 9v.

A new 18a.h. SVLA will produce readings in the
500-700 amp range.

Quote:
All of which doesn't explain the sudden strange behaviour of the charging system. I'm on my way to the airport, going to put the same battery back into the aircraft, check all connections and then start it and check alternator voltage. My father swears the best alternator shop in the world is here in town and insists we should take the alternator and regulator to them and get them to check it rather than just swapping parts. We'll see, a new regulator is pretty cheap compared to troubleshooting charges. New alternator not so much.

Let's get ACCURATE voltage readings
on the bus before you replace anything.
I think it unlikely that the alternator
is bad . . . or even that you've go
bad wiring.

But let's get some good numbers first.
Do you own a digital multimeter? I'll
suggest further than you acquire a capable
battery charger/maintainer . . .

I've owned several of these critters:

http://tinyurl.com/ybkvfa26

They do a charge profile like this following
by a maintenance mode that lets you leave the
charger connected indefinitely.


[img]cid:.1[/img]




Quote:
The Odyssey manual also states max operating temperature with a metal jacket is 80°C. My installation is very similar to Van's Aircraft with Odyssey batteries mounted on the firewall but I'm wondering if perhaps I should look into this as well. Perhaps figure out some way to measure the battery temperature or the engine compartment temperature during flight. In the last week I've put 8 hours flying in the hottest weather we get around here and can't help but wonder if this has anything to do with this problem. Has anyone ever done this experiment?

Maybe a problem . . . 80C is 160F . . . pretty hot for
cruising flight. If you stuck a thermocouple on the
battery box I doubt you'd see temperatures that
high . . . if you're willing to do the experiment,
recording and publishing the data would be a really
useful thing to do.



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:47 pm    Post subject: Questions for the alternator mavens Reply with quote

I don't know what charger was used at the battery shop. Free battery tests so you get what you pay for I think. I cannot vouch for the quality of anything they did. They did not seem very knowledgeable about AGM batteries as they suggested that the proper way to charge is at 2A or less...
Anyway, plugged my digital multimeter (again accuracy unknown $3 from Harbour Freight) onto the battery after sitting for 2 hours: 12.2V. Couldn't find any loose wires in the alternator system but did find one ground cable half worn through at the connector. Plugged the battery into the aircraft and hand propped it, voltage goes to 14.15 as soon as the alternator comes online. No indication on the ammeter that any charge is going into the battery.

I took the battery home and put it on a charger. With the voltage up at 17.5 the battery is taking in less than 3A. I'm at the lake now for a swim and left the battery on my dad's old charger to do whatever it can.
I'm going to fly the plane home tonight and I think, get a new battery and regulator.
I did manage to get a picture of the alternator data plate though I can't quite make out the model number. I'm going to try attaching a picture of it and the regulator in another email.

Any data I should collect on the flight home? At some future date I will do the thermocouple thing and collect some firewall forward temperature data.

Sebastien

On Aug 9, 2017, at 12:49, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
If your evaluation comes up with a good low cost voltmeter for any
shape hole I'll look forward to hearing about it.


  How do your charge your batteries on the bench?


Right now I don't.

How did your battery get charged overnight?


Quote:
Called the battery shop this morning. The battery charged to 13.3 but only put out 101 amps cranking. Odyssey says PC545 CCA is 150.

The 13.3 number is suspect . . . open circuit voltage for
a fully charged battery needs to be measured after the
battery has been 'rested' for 4-6 hours. A fully charged
SVLA at room temperature will show just under 13.0 volts.

The 101 cranking value MAY be a good indicator of battery
condition . . . but if it was measured with one of those
hand-held battery analyzer thingies like WalMart uses
to sell you new batteries, it won't be the same number
that Odyssey would get in their lab.

We measure 'cranking current' by placing as nearly
constant a load on the battery high enough to pull it
down to 9 volts. It takes a critter like one of these:

<2725971.jpg>

AT THE END OF 15 SECONDS, read the load current
at 9v.

A new 18a.h. SVLA will produce readings in the
500-700 amp range.

Quote:
All of which doesn't explain the sudden strange behaviour of the charging system. I'm on my way to the airport, going to put the same battery back into the aircraft, check all connections and then start it and check alternator voltage. My father swears the best alternator shop in the world is here in town and insists we should take the alternator and regulator to them and get them to check it rather than just swapping parts. We'll see, a new regulator is pretty cheap compared to troubleshooting charges. New alternator not so much.

Let's get ACCURATE voltage readings
on the bus before you replace anything.
I think it unlikely that the alternator
is bad . . . or even that you've go
bad wiring.

But let's get some good numbers first.
Do you own a digital multimeter? I'll
suggest further than you acquire a capable
battery charger/maintainer . . .

I've owned several of these critters:

http://tinyurl.com/ybkvfa26

They do a charge profile like this following
by a maintenance mode that lets you leave the
charger connected indefinitely.


[img]cid:.1[/img]




Quote:
The Odyssey manual also states max operating temperature with a metal jacket is 80°C. My installation is very similar to Van's Aircraft with Odyssey batteries mounted on the firewall but I'm wondering if perhaps I should look into this as well. Perhaps figure out some way to measure the battery temperature or the engine compartment temperature during flight. In the last week I've put 8 hours flying in the hottest weather we get around here and can't help but wonder if this has anything to do with this problem. Has anyone ever done this experiment?

Maybe a problem . . . 80C is 160F . . . pretty hot for
cruising flight. If you stuck a thermocouple on the
battery box I doubt you'd see temperatures that
high . . . if you're willing to do the experiment,
recording and publishing the data would be a really
useful thing to do.



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:48 pm    Post subject: Questions for the alternator mavens Reply with quote

[img]cid:FE26BF80-78E7-4623-8E16-A5BD2AB17954[/img]

[img]cid:AD08A491-B633-4A3F-9303-BB5D332459E1[/img]

[img]cid:102AA682-9BA6-4FDC-AB05-999EAD2FE7B3[/img]

Sebastien

On Aug 9, 2017, at 12:49, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
If your evaluation comes up with a good low cost voltmeter for any
shape hole I'll look forward to hearing about it.


  How do your charge your batteries on the bench?


Right now I don't.

How did your battery get charged overnight?


Quote:
Called the battery shop this morning. The battery charged to 13.3 but only put out 101 amps cranking. Odyssey says PC545 CCA is 150.

The 13.3 number is suspect . . . open circuit voltage for
a fully charged battery needs to be measured after the
battery has been 'rested' for 4-6 hours. A fully charged
SVLA at room temperature will show just under 13.0 volts.

The 101 cranking value MAY be a good indicator of battery
condition . . . but if it was measured with one of those
hand-held battery analyzer thingies like WalMart uses
to sell you new batteries, it won't be the same number
that Odyssey would get in their lab.

We measure 'cranking current' by placing as nearly
constant a load on the battery high enough to pull it
down to 9 volts. It takes a critter like one of these:

[img]cid:.0[/img]

AT THE END OF 15 SECONDS, read the load current
at 9v.

A new 18a.h. SVLA will produce readings in the
500-700 amp range.

Quote:
All of which doesn't explain the sudden strange behaviour of the charging system. I'm on my way to the airport, going to put the same battery back into the aircraft, check all connections and then start it and check alternator voltage. My father swears the best alternator shop in the world is here in town and insists we should take the alternator and regulator to them and get them to check it rather than just swapping parts. We'll see, a new regulator is pretty cheap compared to troubleshooting charges. New alternator not so much.

Let's get ACCURATE voltage readings
on the bus before you replace anything.
I think it unlikely that the alternator
is bad . . . or even that you've go
bad wiring.

But let's get some good numbers first.
Do you own a digital multimeter? I'll
suggest further than you acquire a capable
battery charger/maintainer . . .

I've owned several of these critters:

http://tinyurl.com/ybkvfa26

They do a charge profile like this following
by a maintenance mode that lets you leave the
charger connected indefinitely.


[img]cid:.1[/img]




Quote:
The Odyssey manual also states max operating temperature with a metal jacket is 80°C. My installation is very similar to Van's Aircraft with Odyssey batteries mounted on the firewall but I'm wondering if perhaps I should look into this as well. Perhaps figure out some way to measure the battery temperature or the engine compartment temperature during flight. In the last week I've put 8 hours flying in the hottest weather we get around here and can't help but wonder if this has anything to do with this problem. Has anyone ever done this experiment?

Maybe a problem . . . 80C is 160F . . . pretty hot for
cruising flight. If you stuck a thermocouple on the
battery box I doubt you'd see temperatures that
high . . . if you're willing to do the experiment,
recording and publishing the data would be a really
useful thing to do.



Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:47 pm    Post subject: Questions for the alternator mavens Reply with quote

Quote:
Plugged the battery into the aircraft and hand propped it, voltage goes to 14.15 as soon as the alternator comes online. No indication on the ammeter that any charge is going into the battery.

Sounds like the regulator is factory spec.

Quote:

I took the battery home and put it on a charger. With the voltage up at 17.5 the battery is taking in less than 3A.

Oops . . . the battery is toast.
Any SVLA battery that spends much time
over 15 volts is crying for mercy . . .
if it's down to 3A at 17.5, it's
beyond defibrillation.

Quote:
Any data I should collect on the flight home? At some future date I will do the thermocouple thing and collect some firewall forward temperature data.

Are you good flying 'dead panel' . . . like
vfr contact with a map or gps? The numbers
on that battery don't sound good.

Your regulator is the legacy 'ford' four-terminal,
like the one I linked for you earlier today.
But it sounds like the one you have is just fine.

Your battery is 'rated' for 150 cranking amps?
What engine are we talking about?


Bob . . .


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cluros(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:20 pm    Post subject: Questions for the alternator mavens Reply with quote

The electrical system in my aircraft is definitely optional. While I would like to have a full IFR and ice capable aircraft with weather radar and 2 engines, what I have is a day VFR BD-4. If the conditions require a panel, I'm borrowing someone else's aircraft Smile.
The battery did manage to start the engine which I was not expecting. I left the digital voltmeter plugged in for the flight and voltage went to 14.15 again and drifted down to 14.01 by the time I shut down 45 minutes later. No amount of load available (fuel pump, pitot heat, and all lights) had any effect on the bus voltage, even momentary. Turning the battery off momentarily did fluctuate the voltage but not more than 0.2. Ammeter not showing any charge going into the battery. Battery voltage 15 minutes after shutdown was 12.76.
So I think the battery is completely toast and the charging system is fine in general and fine specifically for this battery. I am going to order one of those regulators as a spare because at that price, why not? I ordered the battery from Aircraft Spruce so I'm going to try to get warranty tomorrow but we'll see.

Engine is O-320 160HP with Sky Tec NL starter and wood prop.
Thank you all for all your advice and information.

Sebastien

On Aug 9, 2017, at 19:47, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Plugged the battery into the aircraft and hand propped it, voltage goes to 14.15 as soon as the alternator comes online. No indication on the ammeter that any charge is going into the battery.

Sounds like the regulator is factory spec.

Quote:

I took the battery home and put it on a charger. With the voltage up at 17.5 the battery is taking in less than 3A.

Oops . . . the battery is toast.
Any SVLA battery that spends much time
over 15 volts is crying for mercy . . .
if it's down to 3A at 17.5, it's
beyond defibrillation.

Quote:
Any data I should collect on the flight home? At some future date I will do the thermocouple thing and collect some firewall forward temperature data.

Are you good flying 'dead panel' . . . like
vfr contact with a map or gps? The numbers
on that battery don't sound good.

Your regulator is the legacy 'ford' four-terminal,
like the one I linked for you earlier today.
But it sounds like the one you have is just fine.

Your battery is 'rated' for 150 cranking amps?
What engine are we talking about?


Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:45 pm    Post subject: Questions for the alternator mavens Reply with quote

I'm not sure how to phrase this, but are you sure about what your ammeter is telling you? There are numerous ways to wire an ammeter in an a/c, and how it's wired will drive what it tells you. Even if it's wired to show charge/discharge from the battery, *if the battery is already fully charged*, it won't show any current flowing to the battery.

On 8/9/2017 10:19 PM, Sebastien wrote:

Quote:
The electrical system in my aircraft is definitely optional. While I would like to have a full IFR and ice capable aircraft with weather radar and 2 engines, what I have is a day VFR BD-4. If the conditions require a panel, I'm borrowing someone else's aircraft Smile.


The battery did manage to start the engine which I was not expecting. I left the digital voltmeter plugged in for the flight and voltage went to 14.15 again and drifted down to 14.01 by the time I shut down 45 minutes later. No amount of load available (fuel pump, pitot heat, and all lights) had any effect on the bus voltage, even momentary. Turning the battery off momentarily did fluctuate the voltage but not more than 0.2. Ammeter not showing any charge going into the battery. Battery voltage 15 minutes after shutdown was 12.76.


So I think the battery is completely toast and the charging system is fine in general and fine specifically for this battery. I am going to order one of those regulators as a spare because at that price, why not? I ordered the battery from Aircraft Spruce so I'm going to try to get warranty tomorrow but we'll see. 

Engine is O-320 160HP with Sky Tec NL starter and wood prop.


Thank you all for all your advice and information. 

Sebastien

On Aug 9, 2017, at 19:47, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:


Quote:
Quote:
 Plugged the battery into the aircraft and hand propped it, voltage goes to 14.15 as soon as the alternator comes online. No indication on the ammeter that any charge is going into the battery.

  Sounds like the regulator is factory spec.

Quote:
 
I took the battery home and put it on a charger. With the voltage up at 17.5 the battery is taking in less than 3A.

  Oops . . . the battery is toast.
  Any SVLA battery that spends much time
  over 15 volts is crying for mercy . . .
  if it's down to 3A at 17.5, it's
  beyond defibrillation.

Quote:
Any data I should collect on the flight home? At some future date I will do the thermocouple thing and collect some firewall forward temperature data.

  Are you good flying 'dead panel' . . . like
  vfr contact with a map or gps? The numbers
  on that battery don't sound good.

  Your regulator is the legacy 'ford' four-terminal,
  like the one I linked for you earlier today.
  But it sounds like the one you have is just fine.

  Your battery is 'rated' for 150 cranking amps?
  What engine are we talking about?


  Bob . . .

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:03 pm    Post subject: Questions for the alternator mavens Reply with quote

Hello Charlie. The ammeter, voltmeter, and battery were all acting normally for the first 6 hours of a 8.5 hour vacation. Left the plane for 3 days, came back and battery was completely dead (11V) with no obvious reason. Hand propped the aircraft, alternator voltage was normal but ammeter showed little to no charge. Flew 2 hours and checked the battery, it was just over 12V which is less than 50% charge. 

So I have nothing to confirm what the ammeter is telling me except that after the ammeter showed no current flowing to the battery, the battery wasn't charged. 
On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 8:48 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
I'm not sure how to phrase this, but are you sure about what your ammeter is telling you? There are numerous ways to wire an ammeter in an a/c, and how it's wired will drive what it tells you. Even if it's wired to show charge/discharge from the battery, *if the battery is already fully charged*, it won't show any current flowing to the battery.

On 8/9/2017 10:19 PM, Sebastien wrote:

Quote:
The electrical system in my aircraft is definitely optional. While I would like to have a full IFR and ice capable aircraft with weather radar and 2 engines, what I have is a day VFR BD-4. If the conditions require a panel, I'm borrowing someone else's aircraft Smile.


The battery did manage to start the engine which I was not expecting. I left the digital voltmeter plugged in for the flight and voltage went to 14.15 again and drifted down to 14.01 by the time I shut down 45 minutes later. No amount of load available (fuel pump, pitot heat, and all lights) had any effect on the bus voltage, even momentary. Turning the battery off momentarily did fluctuate the voltage but not more than 0.2. Ammeter not showing any charge going into the battery. Battery voltage 15 minutes after shutdown was 12.76.


So I think the battery is completely toast and the charging system is fine in general and fine specifically for this battery. I am going to order one of those regulators as a spare because at that price, why not? I ordered the battery from Aircraft Spruce so I'm going to try to get warranty tomorrow but we'll see. 

Engine is O-320 160HP with Sky Tec NL starter and wood prop.


Thank you all for all your advice and information. 

Sebastien

On Aug 9, 2017, at 19:47, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:


Quote:
Quote:
 Plugged the battery into the aircraft and hand propped it, voltage goes to 14.15 as soon as the alternator comes online. No indication on the ammeter that any charge is going into the battery.

  Sounds like the regulator is factory spec.

Quote:
 
I took the battery home and put it on a charger. With the voltage up at 17.5 the battery is taking in less than 3A.

  Oops . . . the battery is toast.
  Any SVLA battery that spends much time
  over 15 volts is crying for mercy . . .
  if it's down to 3A at 17.5, it's
  beyond defibrillation.

Quote:
Any data I should collect on the flight home? At some future date I will do the thermocouple thing and collect some firewall forward temperature data.

  Are you good flying 'dead panel' . . . like
  vfr contact with a map or gps? The numbers
  on that battery don't sound good.

  Your regulator is the legacy 'ford' four-terminal,
  like the one I linked for you earlier today.
  But it sounds like the one you have is just fine.

  Your battery is 'rated' for 150 cranking amps?
  What engine are we talking about?


  Bob . . .


Virus-free. www.avast.com [url=#m_2371770414848889934_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]



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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:43 am    Post subject: Questions for the alternator mavens Reply with quote

At 10:19 PM 8/9/2017, you wrote:
Quote:
The electrical system in my aircraft is definitely optional. While I would like to have a full IFR and ice capable aircraft with weather radar and 2 engines, what I have is a day VFR BD-4. If the conditions require a panel, I'm borrowing someone else's aircraft Smile.

The battery did manage to start the engine which I was not expecting. I left the digital voltmeter plugged in for the flight and voltage went to 14.15 again and drifted down to 14.01 by the time I shut down 45 minutes later.

Okay, it would be a useful experiment to change
out the regulator. It would be nice to find one
that runs a bit higher voltage over the range
of production variation.

Quote:
No amount of load available (fuel pump, pitot heat, and all lights) had any effect on the bus voltage, even momentary. Turning the battery off momentarily did fluctuate the voltage but not more than 0.2.

Which suggests your regulator is functioning just
fine . . . at the low side of production tolerance.

Quote:
Ammeter not showing any charge going into the battery.

Do we presume correctly that you have a minus-zero-plus
battery ammeter?

Quote:
Battery voltage 15 minutes after shutdown was 12.76.

Was this measured at the battery terminals with
the master switch OFF?


So I think the battery is completely toast and the charging system is fine in general and fine specifically for this battery. I am going to order one of those regulators as a spare because at that price, why not? I ordered the battery from Aircraft Spruce so I'm going to try to get warranty tomorrow but we'll see.

Agreed . . .

Quote:


Engine is O-320 160HP with Sky Tec NL starter and wood prop.

I think your battery may be a bit light for your
a/c. The SkyTec starters are permanent magnet with
especially high inrush currents. There's a reason
B&C stayed with the wound-field starter configuration
as being kinder and gentler to the ship's battery without
sacrificing cranking performance.

[img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20170810103154.05b499c8(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img]

The PC680 is by far the Odyssey favorite for your
size engine in OBAM aircraft. Half again better internal
resistance hence more tolerant of SkyTec inrush
currents.



Bob . . .


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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1906
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:21 am    Post subject: Re: Questions for the alternator mavens Reply with quote

Sebastien, I had posted previously that there was something wrong with the charging system. That was based on your post saying that the alternator voltage was low, between 13 to 13.5
Now you are saying that the charging voltage is normal. So now I think that either the battery is bad or there is bad battery connection.


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Joe Gores
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cluros(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:37 am    Post subject: Questions for the alternator mavens Reply with quote

Bob, when deciding on a battery last year the 680 looked like a better choice but the 545 was within the requirements that I could find. I cannot remember exactly where I looked but I think it was from generic lycoming manuals and I figured if it's within spec with a legacy starter it could only be better with a modern lightweight one. The smaller and lighter size was much easier to install so that's what I went with. It sounds like you may think that this failure could have something to do with how hard the battery is working. Do you think I have chosen too small a battery and a new one will have a similar life span?
Ammeter is indeed minus-zero-plus. Normal is within a needle width of zero, after a hard start perhaps as high as 30A initially.
I should have measured the final voltage at the battery but it was too tempting with the digital voltmeter already plugged into the bus to just flip the master on. When my wife is hungry the rest of the world doesn't seem to exist. So that 12.76V was with the master solenoid on but no load other than fuel gauges. 

Thank you for your expertise,

Sebastien

On Aug 10, 2017, at 08:43, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 10:19 PM 8/9/2017, you wrote:
Quote:
The electrical system in my aircraft is definitely optional. While I would like to have a full IFR and ice capable aircraft with weather radar and 2 engines, what I have is a day VFR BD-4. If the conditions require a panel, I'm borrowing someone else's aircraft Smile.

The battery did manage to start the engine which I was not expecting. I left the digital voltmeter plugged in for the flight and voltage went to 14.15 again and drifted down to 14.01 by the time I shut down 45 minutes later.

Okay, it would be a useful experiment to change
out the regulator. It would be nice to find one
that runs a bit higher voltage over the range
of production variation.

Quote:
No amount of load available (fuel pump, pitot heat, and all lights) had any effect on the bus voltage, even momentary. Turning the battery off momentarily did fluctuate the voltage but not more than 0.2.

Which suggests your regulator is functioning just
fine . . . at the low side of production tolerance.

Quote:
Ammeter not showing any charge going into the battery.

Do we presume correctly that you have a minus-zero-plus
battery ammeter?

Quote:
Battery voltage 15 minutes after shutdown was 12.76.

Was this measured at the battery terminals with
the master switch OFF?


So I think the battery is completely toast and the charging system is fine in general and fine specifically for this battery. I am going to order one of those regulators as a spare because at that price, why not? I ordered the battery from Aircraft Spruce so I'm going to try to get warranty tomorrow but we'll see.

Agreed . . .

Quote:


Engine is O-320 160HP with Sky Tec NL starter and wood prop.

I think your battery may be a bit light for your
a/c. The SkyTec starters are permanent magnet with
especially high inrush currents. There's a reason
B&C stayed with the wound-field starter configuration
as being kinder and gentler to the ship's battery without
sacrificing cranking performance.

[img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20170810103154.05b499c8(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img]

The PC680 is by far the Odyssey favorite for your
size engine in OBAM aircraft. Half again better internal
resistance hence more tolerant of SkyTec inrush
currents.



Bob . . .


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cluros(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:40 am    Post subject: Questions for the alternator mavens Reply with quote

Thank you Joe. It is indeed difficult to troubleshoot without good data. I have been meaning to scrap that analog voltmeter for a very long time but haven't found a suitable (inexpensive) alternative yet.

Sebastien

Quote:
On Aug 10, 2017, at 10:21, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com> wrote:



Sebastien, I had posted previously that there was something wrong with the charging system. That was based on your post saying that the alternator voltage was low, between 13 to 13.5
Now you are saying that the charging voltage is normal. So now I think that either the battery is bad or there is bad battery connection.

--------
Joe Gores




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471713#471713











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egilroy(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:52 am    Post subject: Questions for the alternator mavens Reply with quote

Craigslist, I have scored several decent used Fluke DVMs for less than $75.

One was $50 and brand new but that was a lady selling all her husbands tools just after throwing him out of the house!!!

Lock your tools before fighting with the spouse!!

Sent from my iPhone - Expect lots of typos!!!

Quote:
On Aug 10, 2017, at 2:39 PM, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com> wrote:



Thank you Joe. It is indeed difficult to troubleshoot without good data. I have been meaning to scrap that analog voltmeter for a very long time but haven't found a suitable (inexpensive) alternative yet.

Sebastien

> On Aug 10, 2017, at 10:21, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Sebastien, I had posted previously that there was something wrong with the charging system. That was based on your post saying that the alternator voltage was low, between 13 to 13.5
> Now you are saying that the charging voltage is normal. So now I think that either the battery is bad or there is bad battery connection.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471713#471713
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>






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