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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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 Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:02 pm Post subject: Wiring schematic question |
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At 03:41 2014-11-17, you wrote:
Hi Bob,
I have been in email discussion with Greg Jones at B&C about a few things on my Pitts Special and he suggested you would be best to speak with about the Aerobatic Aircraft wiring schematic on their website, it was made mention that you drew it up.
Drawing number 420-506
http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/420-506_Indexed_Diagram_with_BOM.pdf
http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/420-506_REVB.pdf
I had a couple of questions, hopefully you can assist a little.
Looking at the mag switch portion of the diagram. Should it not be drawn that the impulse magneto is the OFF-START/ON?
If the OFF-START/ON switch (Right Mag) is used and the start button engaged the starter would not power unless the Left Mag were also on.
Am I missing something here?
Those drawings were sorta copied from my originals but with errors. See
http://tinyurl.com/lsqz36k
Here you see two options for toggle switch control of magnetos . . . one option uses push button to energize starter, the other uses the left mag switch to energize the starter. BOTH versions lock the starter out if the non-impulse coupled magneto is not OFF.
Might I also ask what the function of the momentary side of the mag switch is for - (ON)-OFF-ON?
Same as left side. It was selected to be mechanically identical to the left mag switch so that BOTH switches are MAG-ON with the switch in the middle . . . it's a carry over from the arguments I've received from human factors guys . . . NORMAL ON and OFF positions for both mags should look the same.
I am running an SD-8 dynamo and my intention is to have no master solenoid (as shown in the schematic) and also not use a starter solenoid, I am using the Skytec NL starter and they have an option of wiring the starter using the internal solenoid of the starter. Do you foresee any problem here?
If they use a two-stage solenoid for pinion gear extension . . .
http://tinyurl.com/nx6xavk
then there are extra-ordinary stresses on the switch that actually controls the starter solenoid. Your choice. I recommend either an external contactor or at least a buffer-relay to control starter solenoid.
My biggest concern was having the starter engage and not be able to shut it off. I see the B&C starter has an Emergency Starter Off how does this disable their system as the way I see it, if the solenoid contacts welded themselves closed, the starter is still feed power.
Emergency starter off? Don't know what this is other than to simply turn the battery master switch off.
I contacted Skytec and they said, due to the way their starter is made this can't happen so a starter 'kill' isn't required. If power is removed from the start solenoid the starter 'will' disengage, I guess the only real danger in this situation is a stuck start switch but turning off the master would solve that I guess.
I haven't a clue as to what they're talking about. In every Z-figure and every TC aircraft, the battery master relay is the back-up for a stuck-starter-contactor.
Bob . . . [quote][b]
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ryansoutham(at)hotmail.co
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:33 pm Post subject: Wiring schematic question |
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Thanks Bob.
That all makes good sense after reading through it.
Much appreciated.
Ryan
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 00:00:09 -0600
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
From: nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com
Subject: Re: Wiring schematic question
At 03:41 2014-11-17, you wrote:
Hi Bob,
I have been in email discussion with Greg Jones at B&C about a few things on my Pitts Special and he suggested you would be best to speak with about the Aerobatic Aircraft wiring schematic on their website, it was made mention that you drew it up.
Drawing number 420-506
http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/420-506_Indexed_Diagram_with_BOM.pdf
http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/420-506_REVB.pdf
I had a couple of questions, hopefully you can assist a little.
Looking at the mag switch portion of the diagram. Should it not be drawn that the impulse magneto is the OFF-START/ON?
If the OFF-START/ON switch (Right Mag) is used and the start button engaged the starter would not power unless the Left Mag were also on.
Am I missing something here?
Those drawings were sorta copied from my originals but with errors. See
http://tinyurl.com/lsqz36k
Here you see two options for toggle switch control of magnetos . . . one option uses push button to energize starter, the other uses the left mag switch to energize the starter. BOTH versions lock the starter out if the non-impulse coupled magneto is not OFF.
Might I also ask what the function of the momentary side of the mag switch is for - (ON)-OFF-ON?
Same as left side. It was selected to be mechanically identical to the left mag switch so that BOTH switches are MAG-ON with the switch in the middle . . . it's a carry over from the arguments I've received from human factors guys . . . NORMAL ON and OFF positions for both mags should look the same.
I am running an SD-8 dynamo and my intention is to have no master solenoid (as shown in the schematic) and also not use a starter solenoid, I am using the Skytec NL starter and they have an option of wiring the starter using the internal solenoid of the starter. Do you foresee any problem here?
If they use a two-stage solenoid for pinion gear extension . . .
http://tinyurl.com/nx6xavk
then there are extra-ordinary stresses on the switch that actually controls the starter solenoid. Your choice. I recommend either an external contactor or at least a buffer-relay to control starter solenoid.
My biggest concern was having the starter engage and not be able to shut it off. I see the B&C starter has an Emergency Starter Off how does this disable their system as the way I see it, if the solenoid contacts welded themselves closed, the starter is still feed power.
Emergency starter off? Don't know what this is other than to simply turn the battery master switch off.
I contacted Skytec and they said, due to the way their starter is made this can't happen so a starter 'kill' isn't required. If power is removed from the start solenoid the starter 'will' disengage, I guess the only real danger in this situation is a stuck start switch but turning off the master would solve that I guess.
I haven't a clue as to what they're talking about. In every Z-figure and every TC aircraft, the battery master relay is the back-up for a stuck-starter-contactor.
Bob . . . [quote]
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[b]
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peter(at)sportingaero.com
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:48 am Post subject: Wiring schematic question |
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If you have no master relay or starter relay then the thick wire from the battery to the starter will be hot at all times - there are a few accident scenarios where you could wish you hadn't done that, but its a judgement over risk and reward!
I have a similar set up on my One Design, except that I used a starter relay, and also brought out the wire that controls the NL solenoid to a switch on the panel to provide an emergency off should the start relay weld itself together (used the suggestion in the Sky-Tec documentation). Yes that is a few additional ounces, but you already have a starter and a battery so the penalty is not that large.
If you are worried about ounces then swap out your mags for P-mags?
Peter
On 18/11/2014 06:31, Ryan wrote:
[quote] Thanks Bob.
That all makes good sense after reading through it.
Much appreciated.
Ryan
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 00:00:09 -0600
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
From: nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)
Subject: Re: Wiring schematic question
At 03:41 2014-11-17, you wrote:
Hi Bob,
I have been in email discussion with Greg Jones at B&C about a few things on my Pitts Special and he suggested you would be best to speak with about the Aerobatic Aircraft wiring schematic on their website, it was made mention that you drew it up.
Drawing number 420-506
http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/420-506_Indexed_Diagram_with_BOM.pdf
http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/420-506_REVB.pdf
I had a couple of questions, hopefully you can assist a little.
Looking at the mag switch portion of the diagram. Should it not be drawn that the impulse magneto is the OFF-START/ON?
If the OFF-START/ON switch (Right Mag) is used and the start button engaged the starter would not power unless the Left Mag were also on.
Am I missing something here?
Those drawings were sorta copied from my originals but with errors. See
http://tinyurl.com/lsqz36k
Here you see two options for toggle switch control of magnetos . . . one option uses push button to energize starter, the other uses the left mag switch to energize the starter. BOTH versions lock the starter out if the non-impulse coupled magneto is not OFF.
Might I also ask what the function of the momentary side of the mag switch is for - (ON)-OFF-ON?
Same as left side. It was selected to be mechanically identical to the left mag switch so that BOTH switches are MAG-ON with the switch in the middle . . . it's a carry over from the arguments I've received from human factors guys . . . NORMAL ON and OFF positions for both mags should look the same.
I am running an SD-8 dynamo and my intention is to have no master solenoid (as shown in the schematic) and also not use a starter solenoid, I am using the Skytec NL starter and they have an option of wiring the starter using the internal solenoid of the starter. Do you foresee any problem here?
If they use a two-stage solenoid for pinion gear extension . . .
http://tinyurl.com/nx6xavk
then there are extra-ordinary stresses on the switch that actually controls the starter solenoid. Your choice. I recommend either an external contactor or at least a buffer-relay to control starter solenoid.
My biggest concern was having the starter engage and not be able to shut it off. I see the B&C starter has an Emergency Starter Off how does this disable their system as the way I see it, if the solenoid contacts welded themselves closed, the starter is still feed power.
Emergency starter off? Don't know what this is other than to simply turn the battery master switch off.
I contacted Skytec and they said, due to the way their starter is made this can't happen so a starter 'kill' isn't required. If power is removed from the start solenoid the starter 'will' disengage, I guess the only real danger in this situation is a stuck start switch but turning off the master would solve that I guess.
I haven't a clue as to what they're talking about. In every Z-figure and every TC aircraft, the battery master relay is the back-up for a stuck-starter-contactor.
Bob . . . [b]
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:33 pm Post subject: Wiring schematic question |
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At 03:41 2014-11-17, you wrote:
Hi Bob,
I have been in email discussion with Greg Jones at B&C about a few things on my Pitts Special and he suggested you would be best to speak with about the Aerobatic Aircraft wiring schematic on their website, it was made mention that you drew it up.
Drawing number 420-506
http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/420-506_Indexed_Diagram_with_BOM.pdf
http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/420-506_REVB.pdf
I had a couple of questions, hopefully you can assist a little.
My apologies, I didn't 'scope out the rest of the diagram. No, that general architecture was not suggested by me but the diagram does have some features borrowed from the z-figures of that era. For one thing, the MOV's as transient suppressors was NOT a good idea. We abandoned that recommendation in the AeroElectic Connection . . . oh . . .I forget. But a long time ago.
With an SD-8, one is indeed strapped for 'surplus energy' so elimination of the battery contactor is a useful thing from the energy management perspective. Do you KNOW what your ship's running loads are? How big is your battery? What kind of strobe system . . . and current draw?
As long as your battery is in good condition and fully charged at engine start, the probability of a contactor sticking is very low. It's the tentative closures when a soggy battery is trying to grunt the starter that gets you a stuck contactor. At the same time, the modern intermittent duty starter contactors are much more resistant to sticking under all conditions . . . again assuming that you 'drive 'em hard' . . . 20AWG wire to the 5A coil is a good idea.
As far as compliance with legacy notions of seeking 'Max Cold' conditions in the wiring with all switches OFF, you COULD use a battery master relay that did not carry starter current while locating the external starter contactor adjacent to the battery too.
However, your risks are low using the diagram as published. The only changes I would recommend are using diodes across the contactor coils . . . and the starter contactor that B*C sells already has one installed. Ditch the MOVs. Does this cover 'the rest of the story?'
Bob . . . [quote][b]
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eschlanser
Joined: 08 Apr 2010
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring schematic question |
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| peter(at)sportingaero.com wrote: | If you have no master relay or starter relay then the thick wire from the battery to the starter will be hot at all times - there are a few accident scenarios where you could wish you hadn't done that, but its a judgement over risk and reward!
I have a similar set up on my One Design, except that I used a starter relay, and also brought out the wire that controls the NL solenoid to a switch on the panel to provide an emergency off should the start relay weld itself together (used the suggestion in the Sky-Tec documentation). Yes that is a few additional ounces, but you already have a starter and a battery so the penalty is not that large.
If you are worried about ounces then swap out your mags for P-mags?
Peter
[/b] |
[b][/quote]
Peter,
I have the LS starter not the NL, and I am assuming you have rewired your NL internally to be like the LS model with the external "S" terminal available to control the starter's internal solenoid. I thought the wire to the the "S" terminal was used to engage the internal solenoid. How do you use it to dis-engage the internal solenoid in an emergency?
I would like to add such an emergency off switch to my LS. Like your NL, my LS is wired with a firewall mounted external starter contactor directly off of the battery and not through a master contactor.
Eric
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ryansoutham(at)hotmail.co
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| Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:02 am Post subject: Wiring schematic question |
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Thanks Bob,
The whole system is reasonably low load although I do have an EFIS and engine sensors (approx. 600mA total), Trig radio (approx. 3.2A) and transponder (approx. 1.5A), these are the only things running continuously. Also have starter and smoke pump (approx. 3-4A for 8-10min max), no electric fuel pump (wobble only), no lights.
Battery is a Shorai LFX18A1-BS12 LiFe (18Ah Pb 270CCA equiv. supposedly).
"As far as compliance with legacy notions of seeking 'Max Cold' conditions in the wiring with all switches OFF, you COULD use a battery master relay that did not carry starter current while locating the external starter contactor adjacent to the battery too."
This is how I was likely to do the wiring, I could just go for a reasonably low current relay as a master contactor in this situation given my relatively low overall requirement.
No MOV's then but will use starter contactor with diode close to battery?
Cheers,
Ryan
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 14:31:58 -0600
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
From: nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com
Subject: Re: Wiring schematic question
At 03:41 2014-11-17, you wrote:
Hi Bob,
I have been in email discussion with Greg Jones at B&C about a few things on my Pitts Special and he suggested you would be best to speak with about the Aerobatic Aircraft wiring schematic on their website, it was made mention that you drew it up.
Drawing number 420-506
http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/420-506_Indexed_Diagram_with_BOM.pdf
http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/420-506_REVB.pdf
I had a couple of questions, hopefully you can assist a little.
My apologies, I didn't 'scope out the rest of the diagram. No, that general architecture was not suggested by me but the diagram does have some features borrowed from the z-figures of that era. For one thing, the MOV's as transient suppressors was NOT a good idea. We abandoned that recommendation in the AeroElectic Connection . . . oh . . .I forget. But a long time ago.
With an SD-8, one is indeed strapped for 'surplus energy' so elimination of the battery contactor is a useful thing from the energy management perspective. Do you KNOW what your ship's running loads are? How big is your battery? What kind of strobe system . . . and current draw?
As long as your battery is in good condition and fully charged at engine start, the probability of a contactor sticking is very low. It's the tentative closures when a soggy battery is trying to grunt the starter that gets you a stuck contactor. At the same time, the modern intermittent duty starter contactors are much more resistant to sticking under all conditions . . . again assuming that you 'drive 'em hard' . . . 20AWG wire to the 5A coil is a good idea.
As far as compliance with legacy notions of seeking 'Max Cold' conditions in the wiring with all switches OFF, you COULD use a battery master relay that did not carry starter current while locating the external starter contactor adjacent to the battery too.
However, your risks are low using the diagram as published. The only changes I would recommend are using diodes across the contactor coils . . . and the starter contactor that B*C sells already has one installed. Ditch the MOVs. Does this cover 'the rest of the story?'
Bob . . . [quote]
===========
_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
ank">www.mrrace.com
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
===========
http://forums.matronics.com
===========
[b]
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peter(at)sportingaero.com
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| Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:08 am Post subject: Wiring schematic question |
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Why is a master contactor required - just use a switch? The only load that will be switch by the master switch is the engine monitor - that is assuming the radio (normal current 500mA or less - only 3A on tx), txpdr & smoke pump are switch separately. 600mA should be tolerable for just about any switch, and even 8 or 10A occasionally for any reasonable quality switch.
Wobble pumps seem popular, but to my mind are only useful for starting. A friend with a Laser ended up in a field when his mech pump failed and he couldn't wobble enough to keep airborne. An electric pump will at least get you home.
Peter
On 23/11/2014 09:01, Ryan wrote:
[quote] Thanks Bob,
The whole system is reasonably low load although I do have an EFIS and engine sensors (approx. 600mA total), Trig radio (approx. 3.2A) and transponder (approx. 1.5A), these are the only things running continuously. Also have starter and smoke pump (approx. 3-4A for 8-10min max), no electric fuel pump (wobble only), no lights.
Battery is a Shorai LFX18A1-BS12 LiFe (18Ah Pb 270CCA equiv. supposedly).
"As far as compliance with legacy notions of seeking 'Max Cold' conditions in the wiring with all switches OFF, you COULD use a battery master relay that did not carry starter current while locating the external starter contactor adjacent to the battery too."
This is how I was likely to do the wiring, I could just go for a reasonably low current relay as a master contactor in this situation given my relatively low overall requirement.
No MOV's then but will use starter contactor with diode close to battery?
Cheers,
Ryan
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 14:31:58 -0600
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
From: nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)
Subject: Re: Wiring schematic question
At 03:41 2014-11-17, you wrote:
Hi Bob,
I have been in email discussion with Greg Jones at B&C about a few things on my Pitts Special and he suggested you would be best to speak with about the Aerobatic Aircraft wiring schematic on their website, it was made mention that you drew it up.
Drawing number 420-506
http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/420-506_Indexed_Diagram_with_BOM.pdf
http://www.bandc.biz/pdfs/420-506_REVB.pdf
I had a couple of questions, hopefully you can assist a little.
My apologies, I didn't 'scope out the rest of the diagram. No, that general architecture was not suggested by me but the diagram does have some features borrowed from the z-figures of that era. For one thing, the MOV's as transient suppressors was NOT a good idea. We abandoned that recommendation in the AeroElectic Connection . . . oh . . .I forget. But a long time ago.
With an SD-8, one is indeed strapped for 'surplus energy' so elimination of the battery contactor is a useful thing from the energy management perspective. Do you KNOW what your ship's running loads are? How big is your battery? What kind of strobe system . . . and current draw?
As long as your battery is in good condition and fully charged at engine start, the probability of a contactor sticking is very low. It's the tentative closures when a soggy battery is trying to grunt the starter that gets you a stuck contactor. At the same time, the modern intermittent duty starter contactors are much more resistant to sticking under all conditions . . . again assuming that you 'drive 'em hard' . . . 20AWG wire to the 5A coil is a good idea.
As far as compliance with legacy notions of seeking 'Max Cold' conditions in the wiring with all switches OFF, you COULD use a battery master relay that did not carry starter current while locating the external starter contactor adjacent to the battery too.
However, your risks are low using the diagram as published. The only changes I would recommend are using diodes across the contactor coils . . . and the starter contactor that B*C sells already has one installed. Ditch the MOVs. Does this cover 'the rest of the story?'
Bob . . . [b]
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